10 ms·

Could you imagine at the extremes if you had been refused treatment because of your refusal to sign this document, to which you knew to be untrue, and to which

Could you imagine at the extremes if you had been refused treatment because of your refusal to sign this document, to which you knew to be untrue, and to which they could not provide you with the policy. I studied law for four years (haven't qualified) , but I'm still not even sure on the liability on this one (if there is any at all in this hypothetical). It just shows how bureaucratic everything has become when a privacy policy contains 3000 pages, to which they clearly never refer to, and to which you are most likely the first person to have ever asked to actually see the policy. Best wishes with your health Richard!

jrs235 14y ago
Additionally, what about the fact that if the woman knew the Privacy Policy was 3000 pages and in a binder (which she claimed to be aware of) and knowingly accepts a statement she strongly believes to be untrue? Is this enough to invalidate the "contract" because it is blatantly known that full disclosure and meeting of the minds has not been met? This also comes to mind during mortgages and car loans. Often the closer will just hand you a stack of papers and say "you need to initial here, here, and here, sign here, here, and here" and then expect/anticipate the person to do just that without reading the agreement. The closer ought to know that the signer has not actually read the document and therefore the initials and signatures don't represent what they are meant to represent... that the person has READ the whole thing and mindfully agreed to it! Agh!
- wccrawford 14y ago
  When I bought a car, I read mine and they weren't surprised or upset. They patiently waited while I read it and initialed that I had done so.
  - jrs235 14y ago
    Yeah, car loan signing wasn't as bad and the bank and credit union folks I've dealt with were surprisingly patient... they are surprised when people actually read the agreements though... I think it makes them feel better knowing the person is actually reading what they are agreeing to. Also car loans are many times less complex and have less paperwork than mortgages (thanks in part to all the additional paperwork and contract(s) needed in order to prep the mortgage so that it can be sold to fannie/freddie).
    - itstriz 14y ago
      The worst experience I've had with this sort of thing is under release from jail. I've been arrested 3 times for civil disobedience actions and each time on my way out the officer on duty told me to sign some papers indicating the conditions of my release, that I've received all my property, etc. Each time, when I began to read the papers before signing them, they've told me if I don't sign them without reading them, they would put me back in my cell and hold me at least another few hours. After my first arrest, they would not release me until I signed a paper saying that I received all my property but would not let me inspect my property first. They put my bag of property on the floor across the room and said I could stand about ten feet away from the bag to look at it. Needless to say, once I actually received my bag, I found that there was property missing. Nothing of great value (a hat, a bandana), but it was still pretty irritating.
      - epochwolf 14y ago
        > Each time, when I began to read the papers before signing them, they've told me if I don't sign them without reading them, they would put me back in my cell and hold me at least another few hours. Wouldn't that the document since it was signed under duress?
        wccrawford 14y ago
        Yes, but who are you going to complain to? The very same cops that just broke the law? Or maybe he should go through the legal system? He'll spend more money fighting it than anything he lost is worth. And it'll make his life a lot harder. I'd love to see him fight it, but I certainly don't look down on him for not.
        Drbble 14y ago
        Considering he got into the situation by doing the exact behavior you are doubting, maybe he would actually be interested.
        itstriz 14y ago
  - calloc 14y ago
    The guy I was talking to was amused when I actually read what I was signing while purchasing my car. It asked me to sign saying I had received something, which was going to be printed next. He said I was the first person to refuse to initial/sign the paper until I had seen the next item on the list.
- techdmn 14y ago
  I the first time I closed on a house, realizing ten minutes in that either I was going to be signing contracts without reading them, or everyone was going to be sitting around watching me read for three hours. There's a lot of pressure in a situation like that, even though I try never to sign anything without reading it.
  - roc 14y ago
    Sadly enough, professional negotiators regularly leverage social pressure on people who don't negotiate professionally. It's effective precisely because you don't expect it to be used as a weapon against you.
  - lesterbuck 14y ago
    I sat through some classes on how title companies worked, and the closer (the person at the title company who manages the entire process) refers to you as a "reader." Somewhat unusual, but not that uncommon. (I was a reader when I bought my house years ago.) RESPA requires that all significant costs be listed on a sheet available 24 hours before closing, and you can press your rights on that, though it may delay your closing by one day. That gives you the time to read all the documents before everyone collects in person. And everyone does not need to be in the same room at the same time, of course. Closing documents may be FEDEXed around the world, if necessary, and some real estate investing dual closings (flips) very much depend on everyone NOT seeing all the documents.
  - jedberg 14y ago
    That's why I asked them to send me the documents ahead of time. I spent the night before signing reading all the documents. They said I was the first person to ever ask. :/
  - jrs235 14y ago
    Yup. When I closed on my home I had to figure out to handle that too. It blows the minds of the people in the room away if you sit there and read over the thing... and then ask questions for clarifications. It also [sometimes can] pisses them off cause they plan on 15 to 30 minutes for closing... so if you take your time and go over it ask questions it throws their whole schedule off. When I refinanced the credit union was smart enough to send copies of what I would be signing ahead of time so I could read over it and ask any questions prior to the ceremony of signing it in front of the notary public.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- pilsetnieks 14y ago
  Also, what common binder can hold 3000 pages?
  - ars 14y ago
    3000 is not the literal number, it just means "A lot" of pages.
vacri 14y ago
The privacy policy wasn't 3000 pages. Either Stallman didn't remember the story correctly, or more likely the receptionist was just making up a number to scare him off pursuing the issue. Even the thickest novels don't make it to 3000 pages; very few make it to 1000. Hell, I'd be surprised if the privacy policy hit 3 pages.
- Tloewald 14y ago
  Stallmsn didn't say it was 3000 pages long.
  - vacri 14y ago
    He did, in relating 'the story' on his website, which is why I phrased it that way.
    - ajross 14y ago
      I suspect the "downmod brigade" read what you wrote, and is trying to silence the needless nitpicking on the alleged page count of the policy document that no one has seen. What if he had said "5", would that have changed the issue at all? Are you going to nit on the color of the wallpaper too?
    - pessimizer 14y ago
      No, he said that he was told that it was 3000 pages long, but never saw it, which was the point.
      - vacri 14y ago
        I wish the downmod brigade would actually read what I wrote. I'm not calling Stallman a liar. I'm saying he may have made a mistake in telling the story. It happens. I also said that it was more likely that the receptionist made up the number to scare him off. If you read an article, the author is responsible for putting the words in it, whatever the original source is. The author can make mistakes, because authors are human. I'm just saying that it's a possibility he misquoted the number in his article, a possibility I stated to be less likely than other other source I suggested. I understand the point of the article. I was responding to a couple of comments that were acting like this 3000-word thing was real, when it clearly isn't, and drawing conclusions about how crazy beaurocracy has become that documents get so long.
spinlock 14y ago
I've actually been denied treatment for exactly this reason.

jrs235 14y ago

Additionally, what about the fact that if the woman knew the Privacy Policy was 3000 pages and in a binder (which she claimed to be aware of) and knowingly accepts a statement she strongly believes to be untrue? Is this enough to invalidate the "contract" because it is blatantly known that full disclosure and meeting of the minds has not been met? This also comes to mind during mortgages and car loans. Often the closer will just hand you a stack of papers and say "you need to initial here, here, and here, sign here, here, and here" and then expect/anticipate the person to do just that without reading the agreement. The closer ought to know that the signer has not actually read the document and therefore the initials and signatures don't represent what they are meant to represent... that the person has READ the whole thing and mindfully agreed to it! Agh!

wccrawford 14y ago
When I bought a car, I read mine and they weren't surprised or upset. They patiently waited while I read it and initialed that I had done so.
- jrs235 14y ago
  Yeah, car loan signing wasn't as bad and the bank and credit union folks I've dealt with were surprisingly patient... they are surprised when people actually read the agreements though... I think it makes them feel better knowing the person is actually reading what they are agreeing to. Also car loans are many times less complex and have less paperwork than mortgages (thanks in part to all the additional paperwork and contract(s) needed in order to prep the mortgage so that it can be sold to fannie/freddie).
  - itstriz 14y ago
    The worst experience I've had with this sort of thing is under release from jail. I've been arrested 3 times for civil disobedience actions and each time on my way out the officer on duty told me to sign some papers indicating the conditions of my release, that I've received all my property, etc. Each time, when I began to read the papers before signing them, they've told me if I don't sign them without reading them, they would put me back in my cell and hold me at least another few hours. After my first arrest, they would not release me until I signed a paper saying that I received all my property but would not let me inspect my property first. They put my bag of property on the floor across the room and said I could stand about ten feet away from the bag to look at it. Needless to say, once I actually received my bag, I found that there was property missing. Nothing of great value (a hat, a bandana), but it was still pretty irritating.
    - epochwolf 14y ago
      > Each time, when I began to read the papers before signing them, they've told me if I don't sign them without reading them, they would put me back in my cell and hold me at least another few hours. Wouldn't that the document since it was signed under duress?
      - wccrawford 14y ago
        Yes, but who are you going to complain to? The very same cops that just broke the law? Or maybe he should go through the legal system? He'll spend more money fighting it than anything he lost is worth. And it'll make his life a lot harder. I'd love to see him fight it, but I certainly don't look down on him for not.
        Drbble 14y ago
        Considering he got into the situation by doing the exact behavior you are doubting, maybe he would actually be interested.
        itstriz 14y ago
- calloc 14y ago
  The guy I was talking to was amused when I actually read what I was signing while purchasing my car. It asked me to sign saying I had received something, which was going to be printed next. He said I was the first person to refuse to initial/sign the paper until I had seen the next item on the list.
techdmn 14y ago
I the first time I closed on a house, realizing ten minutes in that either I was going to be signing contracts without reading them, or everyone was going to be sitting around watching me read for three hours. There's a lot of pressure in a situation like that, even though I try never to sign anything without reading it.
- roc 14y ago
  Sadly enough, professional negotiators regularly leverage social pressure on people who don't negotiate professionally. It's effective precisely because you don't expect it to be used as a weapon against you.
- lesterbuck 14y ago
  I sat through some classes on how title companies worked, and the closer (the person at the title company who manages the entire process) refers to you as a "reader." Somewhat unusual, but not that uncommon. (I was a reader when I bought my house years ago.) RESPA requires that all significant costs be listed on a sheet available 24 hours before closing, and you can press your rights on that, though it may delay your closing by one day. That gives you the time to read all the documents before everyone collects in person. And everyone does not need to be in the same room at the same time, of course. Closing documents may be FEDEXed around the world, if necessary, and some real estate investing dual closings (flips) very much depend on everyone NOT seeing all the documents.
- jedberg 14y ago
  That's why I asked them to send me the documents ahead of time. I spent the night before signing reading all the documents. They said I was the first person to ever ask. :/
- jrs235 14y ago
  Yup. When I closed on my home I had to figure out to handle that too. It blows the minds of the people in the room away if you sit there and read over the thing... and then ask questions for clarifications. It also [sometimes can] pisses them off cause they plan on 15 to 30 minutes for closing... so if you take your time and go over it ask questions it throws their whole schedule off. When I refinanced the credit union was smart enough to send copies of what I would be signing ahead of time so I could read over it and ask any questions prior to the ceremony of signing it in front of the notary public.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
pilsetnieks 14y ago
Also, what common binder can hold 3000 pages?
- ars 14y ago
  3000 is not the literal number, it just means "A lot" of pages.

vacri 14y ago

The privacy policy wasn't 3000 pages. Either Stallman didn't remember the story correctly, or more likely the receptionist was just making up a number to scare him off pursuing the issue. Even the thickest novels don't make it to 3000 pages; very few make it to 1000. Hell, I'd be surprised if the privacy policy hit 3 pages.

Tloewald 14y ago
Stallmsn didn't say it was 3000 pages long.
- vacri 14y ago
  He did, in relating 'the story' on his website, which is why I phrased it that way.
  - ajross 14y ago
    I suspect the "downmod brigade" read what you wrote, and is trying to silence the needless nitpicking on the alleged page count of the policy document that no one has seen. What if he had said "5", would that have changed the issue at all? Are you going to nit on the color of the wallpaper too?
  - pessimizer 14y ago
    No, he said that he was told that it was 3000 pages long, but never saw it, which was the point.
    - vacri 14y ago
      I wish the downmod brigade would actually read what I wrote. I'm not calling Stallman a liar. I'm saying he may have made a mistake in telling the story. It happens. I also said that it was more likely that the receptionist made up the number to scare him off. If you read an article, the author is responsible for putting the words in it, whatever the original source is. The author can make mistakes, because authors are human. I'm just saying that it's a possibility he misquoted the number in his article, a possibility I stated to be less likely than other other source I suggested. I understand the point of the article. I was responding to a couple of comments that were acting like this 3000-word thing was real, when it clearly isn't, and drawing conclusions about how crazy beaurocracy has become that documents get so long.

spinlock 14y ago

I've actually been denied treatment for exactly this reason.