6 ms·

Class action lawsuit over Apple's 5GB iCloud limit and iOS backup restrictions

48 points by tech234a 3y ago

o11c 3y ago
Title really undersells this. It is very much not a "we want free backups" thing, but "we want to be able to do non-iCloud backups at all": > Much of the lawsuit’s emphasis is on the fact that iPhone users only have one option when it comes to full device backups
- aurareturn 3y ago
  If they want multiple options, maybe they can buy Android? I buy iPhones because I want a tightly integrated environment.
  - _aavaa_ 3y ago
    Allowing another option does not decrease that integration.
    - yftsui 3y ago
      Of course it does. With a given number of resources, more options needs to be supported means less resource spend on each one.
      - afavour 3y ago
        Apple is more than able to increase resources to accommodate.
        aurareturn 3y ago
        Yes, someone would have to pay for that engineering resource to make the support. I don’t want to pay for it because I prefer iCloud backup already. The core issue here is whether governments should control how iOS is designed and which part of iOS. Furthermore, it can be argued that forcing iOS to be more like Android decreases competition. If you want a more open platform, just get an Android phone.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        > The core issue here is whether governments should control how iOS is designed and which part of iOS. That's Apple's core issue, maybe. Now, look at it from the perspective of a sovereign market. Their core issue (a-la United States v. Microsoft Corp.) is how much they are willing to allow while admitting market access. In Microsoft's case, their manipulation of technical capabilities was considered illegal monopoly action. Apple is treading on the exact same ground with Safari and going even further in the case of the App Store - corrective litigation was an inevitability. Apple ultimately doesn't have to abide by the EU's decisions if they don't intend to intend to access their markets. Governments[0] already[1] control[2] so much[3] of iOS[4] though[5] that it's kinda a moot point =) > Furthermore, it can be argued that forcing iOS to be more like Android decreases competition. It can be argued that competition with Android is not what iCloud, Safari and App Store regulation is about. It's certainly not mentioned anywhere in the DMA or Japan's equivalent legislation. [0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-secretly-giving-governments-push-notification-data/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-... [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Prism_slide_5.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Prism_sl... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/02/us/politics/nso-contract-us-spy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/02/us/politics/nso-contract-... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes [4] https://support.apple.com/en-us/111754 https://support.apple.com/en-us/111754 [5] https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/1/22361762/iphone-russia-startup-local-apps-yandex-mail-ru-law https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/1/22361762/iphone-russia-sta...
        al_borland 3y ago
        All of this comes at the expense of focus on the things that really matter.
        afavour 3y ago
        It really doesn’t. It comes at the expense of a rounding error in Apple’s annual profits.
        shreyansh_k 3y ago
        [flagged]
        afavour 3y ago
        > No offence, but, I mean, you do not have the authority to decide how another company/person gets to spend their focus I'm sorry but it's difficult to take this perspective seriously. It ought to be very obvious that in the context of a Hacker News comment I am not claiming authority to decide what Apple does. I am merely stating that if Apple decided to support third party backup solutions they have more than enough spare money to increase resources rather than, as the OP suggested would be necessary, divert resources away from something else. The OP's "with a given number of resources" qualifier is incorrect because that number isn't actually constant. The lengths some folks go to on Hacker News to defend Apple absolutely astounds me. They're a multinational corporate, they don't care about any of us here. Stating the simple fact that Apple has the ability to increase their resources is not somehow offensive.
        shreyansh_k 3y ago
        Statements such as "Stating the simple fact that Apple has the ability to increase their resources is not somehow offensive." is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Plenty of people (and their companies) die trying to "increase their resources". Apple is no different or special from any of the other companies participating in the economy. I'm not an Apple fanboy but even I do see the point that statements such as "enough spare money" generally do not get anywhere simply because they patronise their targets and imply that somehow someone being rich makes it morally correct to grift them or break them. It is agreeable that Apple doesn't care about any of us here. It's simply due to the fact that our relationship with any company is purely transactional. No one shouldn't be burdened with the responsibility of something they can't control, thus, no one should hold other in responsibility of something they have don't have authority over.
        afavour 3y ago
        “Other companies have failed in the past so we shouldn’t assert anything about a public company’s finances” is just silly. I’m not making a legally binding statement in a court filing or something. We might as well just shut down Hacker News entirely if we aren’t able to talk freely. > imply that somehow someone being rich makes it morally correct to grift them or break them. I can’t help but feel like you’re injecting an unrelated personal view into the discussion here. Apple is not a person, personifying a company muddies the waters, not clear them.
      - _aavaa_ 3y ago
        It’s a bucket for bits. The iPhone does the diffing for the backup and encryption and then sends the data to the server. How many resources are needed to implement an if-statement for picking which address to upload to?
  - malermeister 3y ago
    And if you want to fuel your Ford, you better only use Ford branded fuel. Oh and this Ikea bowl can only be filled with ikea brand meatballs. Can't you see how ridiculously anticompetitive this attitude is?
    - echoangle 3y ago
      Actually I don’t really see the problem as long as there is a free competitor (Android). Just boycott Ford/Ikea in these cases and don’t buy their products. It only becomes a problem if everyone does this, the question is if you want to stop it at the start and prevent anyone from doing this, or if you want to allow it until it becomes a problem
    - aurareturn 3y ago
      No, I don't think it's ridiculous. I will vote with my wallet. If Ikea branded meatballs and their bowls combo provides more value for me, I would buy them.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- bestnameever 3y ago
  Can't you backup your device locally?
  - afavour 3y ago
    I’m assuming cloud backups, the way the vast majority of users back up, is what’s being discussed.
  - o11c 3y ago
    That would've been a reasonable argument back in the day when there were more computers than phones.
- ksec 3y ago
  Really wished Time Capsule for iOS is a thing.
tahoeskibum 3y ago
iTunes used to allow local backups for iPhone. I guess it no longer permits that?
- lldb 3y ago
  They’ve moved this functionality into finder on Mac and a new program “Apple devices” on windows.
- aurareturn 3y ago
  You can still backup the entire iPhone locally.
- 05 3y ago
  It even supports WiFi, so you can have automatic backups every night while the phone is charging. Also the protocol has been reverse engineered, it’s possible to use a Linux server instead of having to use iTunes on windows or buying a Mac.. https://github.com/libimobiledevice/libimobiledevice/issues/1473 https://github.com/libimobiledevice/libimobiledevice/issues/...
sinuhe69 3y ago
“only have one option when it comes to full device backups,[…]iCloud” No, you can always do a full backup with your PC/Mac. And as with any local backup, of course you can move it to any cloud storage you want.
- bogdan 3y ago
  Some people, like my parents, don't have a laptop / PC.
  - al_borland 3y ago
    I’m guessing your parents aren’t worried about cloud provider choice. Anyone arguing that they want to use some of these more obscure cloud backup solutions almost certainly has a Mac or PC at home.
    - mdekkers 3y ago
      This is very much “You are holding it wrong” territory. There is nothing wrong with wanting the same ease of use and integration that iCloud affords, but extended to other clouds. Requiring additional steps (back up to machine, then upload to cloud) are, technically, nonsense, and is simply Apple flexing its’ anti-competitive muscle.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
danielfoster 3y ago
I don't know if it's mentioned in the lawsuit, but Apple has a "You need to upgrade your storage..." box that annoyingly pops up once you have reached the iCloud storage limit. There are a number of issues with how Apple implemented and markets iCloud: 1. Apple offers no options to help manage what you would like to remove to free up space, but rather presents a plan upgrade as the only option. 2. Apple also encourages the syncing of as many devices as possible and unnecessarily offloads unused items into iCloud to fill the storage space. Again, Apple does not explain to users how they can reduce the use of storage. 3. I recently helped a friend's child use Quicktime. It was not possible to start new recordings in the app until the annoying "Upgrade your storage" pop-up was closed. To summarize, Apple's iCloud storage feels very shady and gimmicky relative to their old ethos of focusing on the customer. It is especially designed to help the shareholder, not the user.
- fingerlocks 3y ago
  Wouldn’t all of this go away if you just turned off iCloud? Yes, the free tier comes with advertisements. That’s a very common pricing model.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    > Yes, the free tier comes with advertisements. That’s a very common pricing model. But like, built into your OS? That's a new low that was reserved only for Microsoft for a while. I agree with the parent comment - this sort of first-party advertisement was one of the things that soured me on MacOS.
shreyansh_k 3y ago
People seem to have lost all understandings of boundaries. Bunch of people suing Apple because they don't like how their iPhones back up to iCloud is an equivalent of a child throwing tantrums because their favourite toy won't accept other batteries it wasn't designed for. It's not like Apple put a gun to anyone's head to force them to buy iPhones and Apple has been clear about how their devices work from the get-go. If people are salty about how iPhones work, they should choose to buy other devices or pound sand. Because, some people actually like how their iDevices work with the closed-loop integrations it offers.
- malermeister 3y ago
  Apple has lost all understanding of boundaries. Just because they make a pretty phone with a good camera, they shouldn't be allowed to dictate literally every other aspect of one's digital life. Your car doesn't limit which brand of tires you buy or which streets you take. Your TV doesn't limit what channels you watch. Why should your phone be any different?
  - ralfd 3y ago
    But you car does in fact limit how you do backups of it.
    - whelp_24 3y ago
      Your cheese spray doesn't allow backups either? Cars starting to copy Apples anticonsumer practices is a legit problem but the argument op made was clear.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  The other response is right; Apple is the one who lost sight of boundaries. They thought they were smart fighting Dutch regulators and French tax authorities right up until their regulators played hardball with the market. Now Tim Cook is in full-throttle damage control mode, and the iPhone is skating on ice thin enough to threaten market access. The good news is, Apple has a clear-cut path to compliance that really only interferes with their business ambitions. If they can set aside some of their arbitrary limitations, even optionally, then the iPhone can continue to be sold alongside other smartphones. But nobody owes Apple access to a market they intend to abuse; you've lost all understandings of boundaries if you believe that kind of Ayn Rand nonsense. > is an equivalent of a child throwing tantrums because their favourite toy won't accept other batteries it wasn't designed for. You either misunderstand why people are angry, or you're deliberately leaving out the details that make this important. These are grown adults who are rightfully angry that their smartphone limits it's software compatibility to exploit them. In your backwards analogy, it's more like a child being confused that they can't use their favorite toy because the proprietary AAA batteries cost 30-50x more than a normal battery. That is called market manipulation, and it can be illegal if sufficient damages are proven.

48 points by tech234a 3y ago

o11c 3y ago

Title really undersells this. It is very much not a "we want free backups" thing, but "we want to be able to do non-iCloud backups at all": > Much of the lawsuit’s emphasis is on the fact that iPhone users only have one option when it comes to full device backups

aurareturn 3y ago
If they want multiple options, maybe they can buy Android? I buy iPhones because I want a tightly integrated environment.
- _aavaa_ 3y ago
  Allowing another option does not decrease that integration.
  - yftsui 3y ago
    Of course it does. With a given number of resources, more options needs to be supported means less resource spend on each one.
    - afavour 3y ago
      Apple is more than able to increase resources to accommodate.
      - aurareturn 3y ago
        Yes, someone would have to pay for that engineering resource to make the support. I don’t want to pay for it because I prefer iCloud backup already. The core issue here is whether governments should control how iOS is designed and which part of iOS. Furthermore, it can be argued that forcing iOS to be more like Android decreases competition. If you want a more open platform, just get an Android phone.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        > The core issue here is whether governments should control how iOS is designed and which part of iOS. That's Apple's core issue, maybe. Now, look at it from the perspective of a sovereign market. Their core issue (a-la United States v. Microsoft Corp.) is how much they are willing to allow while admitting market access. In Microsoft's case, their manipulation of technical capabilities was considered illegal monopoly action. Apple is treading on the exact same ground with Safari and going even further in the case of the App Store - corrective litigation was an inevitability. Apple ultimately doesn't have to abide by the EU's decisions if they don't intend to intend to access their markets. Governments[0] already[1] control[2] so much[3] of iOS[4] though[5] that it's kinda a moot point =) > Furthermore, it can be argued that forcing iOS to be more like Android decreases competition. It can be argued that competition with Android is not what iCloud, Safari and App Store regulation is about. It's certainly not mentioned anywhere in the DMA or Japan's equivalent legislation. [0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-secretly-giving-governments-push-notification-data/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-... [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Prism_slide_5.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Prism_sl... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/02/us/politics/nso-contract-us-spy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/02/us/politics/nso-contract-... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes [4] https://support.apple.com/en-us/111754 https://support.apple.com/en-us/111754 [5] https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/1/22361762/iphone-russia-startup-local-apps-yandex-mail-ru-law https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/1/22361762/iphone-russia-sta...
      - al_borland 3y ago
        All of this comes at the expense of focus on the things that really matter.
        afavour 3y ago
        It really doesn’t. It comes at the expense of a rounding error in Apple’s annual profits.
      - shreyansh_k 3y ago
        [flagged]
        afavour 3y ago
        > No offence, but, I mean, you do not have the authority to decide how another company/person gets to spend their focus I'm sorry but it's difficult to take this perspective seriously. It ought to be very obvious that in the context of a Hacker News comment I am not claiming authority to decide what Apple does. I am merely stating that if Apple decided to support third party backup solutions they have more than enough spare money to increase resources rather than, as the OP suggested would be necessary, divert resources away from something else. The OP's "with a given number of resources" qualifier is incorrect because that number isn't actually constant. The lengths some folks go to on Hacker News to defend Apple absolutely astounds me. They're a multinational corporate, they don't care about any of us here. Stating the simple fact that Apple has the ability to increase their resources is not somehow offensive.
        shreyansh_k 3y ago
        Statements such as "Stating the simple fact that Apple has the ability to increase their resources is not somehow offensive." is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Plenty of people (and their companies) die trying to "increase their resources". Apple is no different or special from any of the other companies participating in the economy. I'm not an Apple fanboy but even I do see the point that statements such as "enough spare money" generally do not get anywhere simply because they patronise their targets and imply that somehow someone being rich makes it morally correct to grift them or break them. It is agreeable that Apple doesn't care about any of us here. It's simply due to the fact that our relationship with any company is purely transactional. No one shouldn't be burdened with the responsibility of something they can't control, thus, no one should hold other in responsibility of something they have don't have authority over.
        afavour 3y ago
        “Other companies have failed in the past so we shouldn’t assert anything about a public company’s finances” is just silly. I’m not making a legally binding statement in a court filing or something. We might as well just shut down Hacker News entirely if we aren’t able to talk freely. > imply that somehow someone being rich makes it morally correct to grift them or break them. I can’t help but feel like you’re injecting an unrelated personal view into the discussion here. Apple is not a person, personifying a company muddies the waters, not clear them.
    - _aavaa_ 3y ago
      It’s a bucket for bits. The iPhone does the diffing for the backup and encryption and then sends the data to the server. How many resources are needed to implement an if-statement for picking which address to upload to?
- malermeister 3y ago
  And if you want to fuel your Ford, you better only use Ford branded fuel. Oh and this Ikea bowl can only be filled with ikea brand meatballs. Can't you see how ridiculously anticompetitive this attitude is?
  - echoangle 3y ago
    Actually I don’t really see the problem as long as there is a free competitor (Android). Just boycott Ford/Ikea in these cases and don’t buy their products. It only becomes a problem if everyone does this, the question is if you want to stop it at the start and prevent anyone from doing this, or if you want to allow it until it becomes a problem
  - aurareturn 3y ago
    No, I don't think it's ridiculous. I will vote with my wallet. If Ikea branded meatballs and their bowls combo provides more value for me, I would buy them.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
bestnameever 3y ago
Can't you backup your device locally?
- afavour 3y ago
  I’m assuming cloud backups, the way the vast majority of users back up, is what’s being discussed.
- o11c 3y ago
  That would've been a reasonable argument back in the day when there were more computers than phones.
ksec 3y ago
Really wished Time Capsule for iOS is a thing.

tahoeskibum 3y ago

iTunes used to allow local backups for iPhone. I guess it no longer permits that?

lldb 3y ago
They’ve moved this functionality into finder on Mac and a new program “Apple devices” on windows.
aurareturn 3y ago
You can still backup the entire iPhone locally.
05 3y ago
It even supports WiFi, so you can have automatic backups every night while the phone is charging. Also the protocol has been reverse engineered, it’s possible to use a Linux server instead of having to use iTunes on windows or buying a Mac.. https://github.com/libimobiledevice/libimobiledevice/issues/1473 https://github.com/libimobiledevice/libimobiledevice/issues/...

sinuhe69 3y ago

“only have one option when it comes to full device backups,[…]iCloud” No, you can always do a full backup with your PC/Mac. And as with any local backup, of course you can move it to any cloud storage you want.

bogdan 3y ago
Some people, like my parents, don't have a laptop / PC.
- al_borland 3y ago
  I’m guessing your parents aren’t worried about cloud provider choice. Anyone arguing that they want to use some of these more obscure cloud backup solutions almost certainly has a Mac or PC at home.
  - mdekkers 3y ago
    This is very much “You are holding it wrong” territory. There is nothing wrong with wanting the same ease of use and integration that iCloud affords, but extended to other clouds. Requiring additional steps (back up to machine, then upload to cloud) are, technically, nonsense, and is simply Apple flexing its’ anti-competitive muscle.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

danielfoster 3y ago

I don't know if it's mentioned in the lawsuit, but Apple has a "You need to upgrade your storage..." box that annoyingly pops up once you have reached the iCloud storage limit. There are a number of issues with how Apple implemented and markets iCloud: 1. Apple offers no options to help manage what you would like to remove to free up space, but rather presents a plan upgrade as the only option. 2. Apple also encourages the syncing of as many devices as possible and unnecessarily offloads unused items into iCloud to fill the storage space. Again, Apple does not explain to users how they can reduce the use of storage. 3. I recently helped a friend's child use Quicktime. It was not possible to start new recordings in the app until the annoying "Upgrade your storage" pop-up was closed. To summarize, Apple's iCloud storage feels very shady and gimmicky relative to their old ethos of focusing on the customer. It is especially designed to help the shareholder, not the user.

fingerlocks 3y ago
Wouldn’t all of this go away if you just turned off iCloud? Yes, the free tier comes with advertisements. That’s a very common pricing model.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  > Yes, the free tier comes with advertisements. That’s a very common pricing model. But like, built into your OS? That's a new low that was reserved only for Microsoft for a while. I agree with the parent comment - this sort of first-party advertisement was one of the things that soured me on MacOS.

shreyansh_k 3y ago

People seem to have lost all understandings of boundaries. Bunch of people suing Apple because they don't like how their iPhones back up to iCloud is an equivalent of a child throwing tantrums because their favourite toy won't accept other batteries it wasn't designed for. It's not like Apple put a gun to anyone's head to force them to buy iPhones and Apple has been clear about how their devices work from the get-go. If people are salty about how iPhones work, they should choose to buy other devices or pound sand. Because, some people actually like how their iDevices work with the closed-loop integrations it offers.

malermeister 3y ago
Apple has lost all understanding of boundaries. Just because they make a pretty phone with a good camera, they shouldn't be allowed to dictate literally every other aspect of one's digital life. Your car doesn't limit which brand of tires you buy or which streets you take. Your TV doesn't limit what channels you watch. Why should your phone be any different?
- ralfd 3y ago
  But you car does in fact limit how you do backups of it.
  - whelp_24 3y ago
    Your cheese spray doesn't allow backups either? Cars starting to copy Apples anticonsumer practices is a legit problem but the argument op made was clear.
smoldesu 3y ago
The other response is right; Apple is the one who lost sight of boundaries. They thought they were smart fighting Dutch regulators and French tax authorities right up until their regulators played hardball with the market. Now Tim Cook is in full-throttle damage control mode, and the iPhone is skating on ice thin enough to threaten market access. The good news is, Apple has a clear-cut path to compliance that really only interferes with their business ambitions. If they can set aside some of their arbitrary limitations, even optionally, then the iPhone can continue to be sold alongside other smartphones. But nobody owes Apple access to a market they intend to abuse; you've lost all understandings of boundaries if you believe that kind of Ayn Rand nonsense. > is an equivalent of a child throwing tantrums because their favourite toy won't accept other batteries it wasn't designed for. You either misunderstand why people are angry, or you're deliberately leaving out the details that make this important. These are grown adults who are rightfully angry that their smartphone limits it's software compatibility to exploit them. In your backwards analogy, it's more like a child being confused that they can't use their favorite toy because the proprietary AAA batteries cost 30-50x more than a normal battery. That is called market manipulation, and it can be illegal if sufficient damages are proven.