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Conlangs are cool and all and I haven't seen the new movie yet, but the thing that sort of annoyed me about the first one is that the book is _heavily_ inspired
by empath-nirvana 3y ago
Conlangs are cool and all and I haven't seen the new movie yet, but the thing that sort of annoyed me about the first one is that the book is _heavily_ inspired by a non-fiction book called Sabres of Paradise, about an islamic uprising against the Russian Empire:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Shamil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Shamil
And the book is _full_ of arabic, persian and russian terminology, and Islamic cultural and religious references, and the director and screenwriter have said that it's basically orientalism and ornament and they've gotten rid of it because it's distracting, but I don't think it's ornament, and I think the Islamic influences on the Fremen are a core part of the story, and it's missing a lot without it.
The book is meant to be about _our future_ and the fact that Muslims still exist and are important in the future isn't just like "flavor", it was an innovative idea at the time in science fiction and still is.
It just seems kind of wrong to expend so much thought inventing new languages for the movie when it had so much context and culture already there to use.
- gherkinnn 3y ago> have said that it's basically orientalism and ornament and they've gotten rid of it because it's distracting I like the books and the first film, haven't seen part 2 yet. But this has to be bullshit. Is it about orientalist ornaments or did the studio want to avoid a midwit outrage over the frequent use of the term "Jihad"?
- empath-nirvana 3y agoI'm sure that's part of it.
- jfyi 3y agoI think largely so, very likely. Just from memory, there was also the name "Usul" described as meaning "the strength at the base of the pillar". In the same context, I could see that drawing outrage too.
- arcbyte 3y agoThe connotations to western audiences carried by Arabic words and imagery in 1965 is vastly different to the connotations conveyed today. It would be incredibly distracting and offputting to modern audiences trying to grasp the core story.
- lupusreal 3y agoWhen we dumb things down for the lowest common denominator, we're just left with slop. I understand the economic incentive to reach the widest audience possible, but I wish our culture was better at telling idiots to go pound sand.
- Lord-Jobo 3y agoI think this is the strongest reason to avoid it, and I would have done the same. It's just going to lead the audience to weird places and confusion. And distract from all of the other things Dune has going for it. Replicating the EFFECT on the audience of a book written in 1965 is really a big undertaking. Even if you ignore the rather blunt stereotyping and selective aspects of Islamic cultures that Herbert injected. Or carried over from another story, as was highlighted earlier.
- Supermancho 3y agoRelevant? https://youtu.be/YSFyotLlhxA?t=669 https://youtu.be/YSFyotLlhxA?t=669
- olah_1 3y ago> the director and screenwriter have said that it's basically orientalism and ornament and they've gotten rid of it because it's distracting I honestly didn't notice. The Fremen still seem heavily middle eastern to me.
- bertil 3y agoAmusingly, neither Zendaya nor Javier Bardem are Middle-Eastern, but they can easily play so because skin color works that way. I think the fact that it could just as well be a post-El-Niño Chihuahuan desert makes sense too.
- dragonwriter 3y ago> Amusingly, neither Zendaya nor Javier Bardem are Middle-Eastern, but they can easily play so because skin color works that way. Well, given the history of the Iberian peninsula, there's likely a little more to it in Bardem's case...
- kragen 3y agochechnya and dagestan are actually rather far from the middle east, and that's where imam shamil was fighting
- 082349872349872 3y agoShamil also inspired a Hasidic nigun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpUJn7yZnJQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpUJn7yZnJQ note how the theme of the Nigun Shamil is echoed by cyberpunk computer cowboys: > "For Case, who'd lived for the bodiless exultation of cyberspace, it was the Fall. In the bars he'd frequented as a cowboy hotshot, the elite stance involved a certain relaxed contempt for the flesh. The body was meat. Case fell into the prison of his own flesh." —WFG Lagniappe: my current favourite music video performed by caucasians that references (however unintentionally) Lancaster vs York would be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTdXQabTTRg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTdXQabTTRg
- 3y ago
- shagie 3y agoWhile non-cannon (with the writing of the prequels), from The Dune Encyclopedia ... > The earliest history of the native inhabitants of Arrakis indicates that they were the sole remnant of a people known as the Zensunni Wanderers, originally followers of a "prophet" named Maometh, circa 1381 E.G. The Fremen broke away from the main sect to establish their own religion based on an ultraconservative notion of living life according to "the ways of the fathers." Given the Fremen's roots in such a religion and the particularly life- threatening environment that Arrakis afforded them, the Fremen developed a set of cultural institutions unique in their perfect balance between the philosophical world view demanded by imposed Fremen faith and the harsh reality imposed by Arrakis's nature. These institutions remained stable for thousands of years and are significantly changed by only two events. The first was the arrival of Pardot Kynes as the first planetologist of Arrakis. The second was the transfer of the governance of Arrakis from the House Harkonnen to House Atreides in 10190 and the subsequent emergence of Paul Atreides as Paul Maud'Dib. Kynes expanded the cultures of the Fremen to include the hope for a second flowering of Arrakis; Paul Maud'Dib forever changed that culture, thus, for all intents, the ancient culture of the Fremen ceased with his rise to power. And an example from first page of the section on Fremen Language: https://i.imgur.com/jiRQNVv.png https://i.imgur.com/jiRQNVv.png and a bit from the history of the language: https://i.imgur.com/QQq5gfO.png https://i.imgur.com/QQq5gfO.png
- euroderf 3y agoI've reviewed this kind of Dune background material and I still don't quite get how the Zensunnis and others managed to get to other star systems before the advent of FTL. I've seen no mention of (for example) generation ships.
- shagie 3y agoIn this timeline... FTL was discovered in 13004 BG (before guild) and 12200 BG was "The Empire of Ten Worlds" followed by 11200 BG which was "The Empire of a Thousand Worlds" It wasn't until 7593 BG when I.V. Holtzman was born. 5022 BG was "The Empire of Ten Thousand Worlds". The order of the mentats was established in 1234 AG. In 2800 AG you have the beginnings of the Zensunni Migration. 7193 AG was Zensunni on Rossak buying passage from the space guild to Arrakis. Paul Atreides was born in 10175 AG. --- FTL existed before the guild, it was mediated by computers and wasn't entirely safe. There are about 10,000 years between the founding of the guild (and safe non-computer FTL) and the events of Dune. --- A page from the start of the timeline of the Zensunni Wanderers history - https://i.imgur.com/Xw8qbpO.png https://i.imgur.com/Xw8qbpO.png
- belval 3y ago> and it's missing a lot without it Could you clarify what it is missing exactly? Genuinely curious as I read the books before watching the movie and I didn't really feel like the movie was missing anything? > The book is meant to be about _our future_ and the fact that Muslims still exist and are important in the future isn't just like "flavor", it was an innovative idea at the time in science fiction and still is. Respectfully I think this is reading too deep into it. Herbert borrowed Arabic words and concepts to build a hardy middle-eastern-adjacent culture, it's hardly the focus of the book.
- empath-nirvana 3y ago> Respectfully I think this is reading too deep into it. Herbert borrowed Arabic words and concepts to build a hardy middle-eastern-adjacent culture, it's hardly the focus of the book. https://reactormag.com/the-muslimness-of-dune-a-close-reading-of-appendix-ii-the-religion-of-dune/ https://reactormag.com/the-muslimness-of-dune-a-close-readin... It's more than that.
- regentbowerbird 3y agoVery interesting read, thank you.
- dingnuts 3y agoI always thought the Arabic references in Dune, and also the desert planet that produces the fuel by which commerce operates, was a downright obvious social commentary on oil and the geopolitics at the time the book was published Honestly I always thought the metaphor was borderline heavy handed, to the point that I never continued reading after the first book because the metaphor was boring to me Now I feel positively gaslit. Did I imagine all this?
- empath-nirvana 3y agoYou didn't imagine it, but he didn't draw all his references from the arabian peninsula and islamic culture is more than saudi arabia.
- babyshake 3y agoThe Russian element is interesting, as it stood out to be on my last rewatch of the 2021 film that the main villain (Stellan Skarsgård) is named "Vladimir Harkonnen".
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y agoAnd the Padishah Emperor is called Shaddam IV. Dune the novel, is where I learned the word "jihad" long before it was commonly known. It wasn't used in the film much, since as noted, the world has moved on.
- realfeel78 3y agoThe world has moved on from Jihad? What world are you living in?
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y agoThe _word_ can't be used casually like that any more. The world has moved on from using the word casually as exotic unfamiliar flavour, without inviting unwelcome ignorant reflexive antagonism. For an example of that, I refer you to your own comment.
- samatman 3y agoThe Fremen jihad isn't exotic unfamiliar flavor. It's jihad.
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y agoWhoosh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinctio...
- samatman 3y agoAre you a professional doofus, or is it more of a thing you do online for fun.
- huytersd 3y agoCompletely agree. Seems like a lot of people are taking this nonsensical complaint of “cultural appropriation” to basically peer pressure people into self segregating. The negative experiences of African Americans during slavery/post slavery when it comes to the specific issue of cultural appropriation really doesn’t apply to most other ethnicities who view someone else adopting their culture with genuine happiness.
- jhbadger 3y agoTechnically the Fremen aren't exactly Muslim (although they seem to be Muslim-coded) -- they are members of a new religion called Zen-Sunni, which was formed when Zen Buddhism and Sunni Islam merged at some point in the future. And the other major religion Orange Catholicism presumably likewise is a merge of Protestantism ("Orange") back into Catholic Christianity.
- FrustratedMonky 3y agoI wish there was more background on this. What was original concept with putting Zen Buddhism and Islam together? Did Herbert have a plan for this combo, or was he just making up some future backstory? Like sometimes happens when authors aren't really sure there will be a sequel at all, and just scatter some future references around.
- wirrbel 3y agoIf i recall correctly zensunni in the book also used/read the orange-catholic bible. Overall I think the topic of religion stays vague apart from Herbert making use of the trope of a Messiah and using syncretism as a symbol that major shifts happened in the human societies that brought opposing religions together.
- simonh 3y agoIn particular the OC Bible was compiled as a synthesis of all the major existing religious traditions of the time after the Butlerian Jihad, which united humanity in revolt against the thinking machines. The resulting total ban on computational devices as heresy lead to the rise of the Spacing Guild’s monopoly on interstellar navigation.
- willis936 3y agoThanks now I want to read more of the books.
- 3y ago
- rukuu001 3y agoOn the one hand I imagine that Russian and Arabic viewers would find inclusions from their languages very distracting, but then the story is so clearly about Americans and Russians squabbling over colonized Arabic territory, and all of them getting screwed over by ‘larger forces’, that I don’t think changing the language makes a real difference.
- empath-nirvana 3y agoA lot of the story and setting is taken almost _word for word_ from Sabres of Paradise, which takes place in the Caucuses, before the soviet union existed and before America got involved in the middle east. https://arnoldkhan.medium.com/how-the-sabre-of-paradise-inspired-dune-f2b892c4869e https://arnoldkhan.medium.com/how-the-sabre-of-paradise-insp...
- throw4847285 3y agoI wonder if he also read Hadji Murat by Tolstoy. It's about the same historical incidents, but fictionalized.
- mr_toad 3y agoThe Harkonnen are stereotypical medieval despots, almost cartoonishly so.
- dragonwriter 3y ago> On the one hand I imagine that Russian and Arabic viewers would find inclusions from their languages very distracting, but then the story is so clearly about Americans and Russians squabbling over colonized Arabic territory It isn't, though between the time it was conceived and written and when it became popular things the world situation had evolved so that became a popular interpretation.
- int_19h 3y agoAnecdotally I've seen quite a few Muslim sci-fi fans say that they enjoyed all the references to their culture in Dune. You might also find this interesting: https://reactormag.com/the-muslimness-of-dune-a-close-reading-of-appendix-ii-the-religion-of-dune/ https://reactormag.com/the-muslimness-of-dune-a-close-readin... Speaking as a Russian, the only real reference to Russian specifically in the books is Vladimir Harkonnen's first name, which was amusing when it first came up, but it doesn't really seem to play any specific role (and ofc his last name is Finnish, so, like most other things in this universe, if it's a cultural reference, it's very syncretic). There is another reference to a broader Slavic culture in one of the Fremen chants in the first book, though: ima trava okolo i korenja okolo This does not directly correspond to any existing Slavic language, but it is very recognizable to most speakers of such - "trava" is grass, "korenja" (pronounced as "korenya") are "roots", and "okolo" literally means "around" (from "kolo", circle), and in some Slavic languages became more generic "nearby". So the snippet should really translate as "grass is around/near, and roots are around/near", but Herbert translates it as "these are the grasses and these are the roots". Then again, many clearly Arabic phrases also have meanings that are similar but not exactly the same as what they really mean, and the book sort of implies that it's just the result of language evolution over time. But it is rather interesting that Fremen of all people apparently have some Slavic language as part of its history. Given that the snippet most closely resembles South Slavic languages, it is likely a reference to Bosniaks specifically, but it's never really elaborated further.
- nverno 3y ago> It just seems kind of wrong to expend so much thought inventing new languages for the movie when it had so much context and culture already there to use. It did all work great in the books, and would certainly have worked in the movies as well. But, the effort and care they've put into this additionally world-building seems totally in the spirit of the original Dune to me. There were a number of things that I had imagined differently when reading the books, but this was a rare case where I think they've done an excellent job bringing their version to the screen.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago"and the fact that Muslims still exist and are important in the future isn't just like "flavor", it was an innovative idea at the time in science fiction and still is." But, think of the alternative. The Fremen are an 'extremist' religious group, that easily kill any foreigner, and are manipulated into a 'jihad'. If the Movie doubled down to making them "Islamic Flavored". Then the movie and director would get crucified for portraying Muslims in an un-favorable light. The book might have used Islamic Flavor, but it does not do it to show Islam favorably. It shows them as radical brutal desert dwellers.
- Apocryphon 3y agoOn the contrary, as the Fremen are shown to be the oppressed indigenous, the movie would be stoned for casting jihad in too positive a light, as an admirable ideal! The book hardly shows the Great Houses nor the Imperium as any better than the savage freedom fighters. If anything the series isn't really sympathetic towards any particular subgroup of humanity.
- renewiltord 3y agoThey were just trying to avoid jihad and all that because of present geopolitical positioning. You can’t have the hero be threatening to go ISIS on the universe. You’ll get canceled.
- mr_toad 3y agoPaul was trying to avoid the Jihad too. It was a fairly major plot point.
- renewiltord 3y agoYeah but being constantly drawn to literally jihad. Too dangerous. “Oh man, I might accidentally unleash galactic jihad. It’s so tempting. It is my fate. I’m going to try to avoid it”. Not hero stuff. Make it look like Osama just going with the flow.
- int_19h 3y agoBut, of course, that is the whole point - Paul isn't a hero, he just plays the role of one for his own purposes (first survival, and then trying to prevent the end of humankind he foresees in the future). Using the Fremen's own religion - by itself, benign, but prone to manipulation as any religion is - to turn them into his fanatical followers is meant to be a bad thing, and it bugs him in the books.
- renewiltord 3y agoAll that’s true. It just seems somewhat risky that you make a movie that points to Osama and says “There, but for the grace of God, go I”. Just somewhat dangerous.
- int_19h 3y agoFrom a commercial perspective, it definitely is. From a cultural one, I would argue that the fact that our modern culture gets outraged about such things is a sign of its illness: we are pretending that we can avoid difficult conversations about important things by ignoring them if they make us uncomfortable.
- rstarast 3y agoI mean it's basically just Rambo 3 in space innit?
- lukan 3y ago"The book is meant to be about _our future_ " The book is meant to be about one possible future. It is explicitely not meant as a prediction how humanity will develope.
- 0xbadcafebee 3y agoWithin the lifetime of the universe, all futures are possible. I don't find it particularly interesting whether that future is directly a result of us, or some completely identical hominid that evolved the same way on the other side of the galaxy.
- wolverine876 3y agoThe OP covers that in some detail. Search for "Why did Herbert Arabize the Fremen?"
- VoodooJuJu 3y agoEven if it were just ornament, it still should have been included. Ornament is aesthetics, it's beautiful. Their reasoning is bullshit. The director omitted those things not as an artistic decision, but because of his and his group's modern political dogmas.
- metricspaces 3y agoIt's a book about galactic Jihad for God's sake. Of course they are going to "deflavor" it. I'm of the opinion the entire production is to take narrative control over this amazing work of literature. You can not mistake who are the bad guys and who are the good guys :) Dune and its follow up volumes are visionary fiction.
- Aeolun 3y agoAlso, from a much more pragmatic perspective, it just sounds cool. I don’t think we should be reluctant about using any given language just because we are currently having some issues with people also using it. It’s not as if I enjoy my games with Russian in any less.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]