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HDMI Forum Rejects Open-Source HDMI 2.1 Driver Support Sought by AMD
- silisili 3y agoSerious question, what if they just ignore the Forum and do it anyways?
- mperham 3y agoThey will get sued and lose.
- baby_souffle 3y ago> Serious question, what if they just ignore the Forum and do it anyways? Probably makes it tricky to get HDMI forum's blessing for any future devices. AFAIK, the hdmi standards are public-ish so anybody can create a device that is HDMI compatible but you're only allowed to put "HDMI" on the packaging / marketing material with the forum's blessing.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- xnyan 3y agoHDMI(®) is a trademark as well as a proprietary protocol. The only way to legally use the HDMI label is with approval of the forum.
- toast0 3y agoJust call it a 19-bin display connector in that case. Or only put in dual-mode display port connectors (DP++), and let people get passive adapters (maybe bundle them for a bit; you can probably label the passive adapters as HDMI)
- notpushkin 3y ago> Just call it a 19-bin display connector in that case Flipper × Raspberry Pi did exactly that just a couple days ago: https://blog.flipper.net/introducing-video-game-module-powered-by-raspberry-pi/ https://blog.flipper.net/introducing-video-game-module-power... > Video Out port: DVI-D signal in 640х480 px, 60 Hz. The port supports a well-known video standard that we can't name due to copyright limitations :shush: The first letter is H, and the last one is I.
- 0xcde4c3db 3y agoThis is pretty much an actual strategy. The academic/crowdfunded ULX3S FPGA development board went with calling it "GPDI" (general-purpose digital interface). Other strategies include labeling the connector with a little TV/monitor icon, calling it "digital video", or just having a little diagram in the marketing/documentation material with it connected to a TV with a vaguely HDMI-shaped cable.
- 0xedd 3y agoIt's funny how baby mentally drives these companies. Really, writing "HDMI" is an issue? But if I write HDMl, then that's fine? Come on. Find a real way to generate revenue rather than wasting everyone's time.
- account42 3y agoThey don't even need this to generate revenue. The HDMI forum is mostly companies making TVs and other HDMI devices. You'd think they want as many compatible sources as possible.
- account42 3y ago... which in a sane world would not be allowed. We really need laws that protect (adversarial) compatibility.
- Crosseye_Jack 3y agoAt best: Get kicked out of the forum and can never support HDMI products going forward. At Worse: Get sued for breaking NDA, lose, pay a metric fuck ton in damages, and get kicked out of the forum and can never support HDMI products going forward.
- amlib 3y agoWhat if _someone_ makes an unofficial patch with HDMI 2.1 support? You could at least compile your own damn kernel with the damn thing supported.
- Crosseye_Jack 3y agoIf _someone_ released an unofficial patch for the official OSS driver it might get by, it might get "DMCA'ed", though DMCA might not be the correct takedown method for patent violations (I'm just presuming this _someone_ released only their own code and nothing from AMD, so AMD wouldn't have a copyright claim over the code itself), but hey thats never stopped companies mis-using the DMCA in the past! To file a valid counter notice to a DMCA, that _someone_ would have to give details which the forum could then use to sue the publisher of the patch. But yeah even if the patch some how was made public, and it wasn't nuked out of orbit, ongoing support and bug fixes would be a pain in the ass. (Because as an example, no one from AMD would be allowed to touch the "patch code") <edit> If AMD's planned patch was leaked for example, as AMD had not officially released it, its not yet "open source" and because of that, not yet public, and I'm sure there will be a clause in the terms that state that AMD would have to go on the offensive to get their code removed from any public repos. </edit> When it comes to lawfare, The Forum wouldn't even have to be in the right (in a legal sense), just have a big enough war chest to make everyone else's life a pain in the ass!
- amlib 3y agoSomeone else in the comments has suggested that maybe an entity or someone in a country like France where copyright laws are less strict might be able to write and maintain the patch without fear of persecution, but as you said, those guys may somehow still make life a pain in the ass :(
- rodgerd 3y ago"HDMI" is a trademark. You can't claim to offer HDMI in any of your products. The patent pools around approximately all the codecs used for media delivery are heavily cross-licensed. That includes HDMI and HDCP, but also h.264 and h.265. Most likely AMD can't legally use hardware decoding or encoding of any popular codecs at that point. Good luck with game video, streaming, or playing media discs. So it would cost AMD - for example - their entire PlayStation/XBox business. At a minimum.
- dsp_person 3y agoWhat if they just replaced "HDMI" with "Mystery Port" in the specs and marketing materials?
- account42 3y agoThey should call it a Highly Dubious Mistery Interface.
- mikece 3y ago"Needless to say, open-source Linux advocates should try to use DisplayPort instead if at all possible." And at this point that's one of the several (many?) protocols that runs over a USB-C cable, right?
- conradev 3y agoDisplayPort is packet-based and can be multiplexed with other USB-C traffic through a hub HDMI is not packet-based and so when it uses USB-C it takes over the entire cable (alt-mode)
- baby_souffle 3y ago> DisplayPort is packet-based and can be multiplexed with other USB-C traffic through a hub This is part of why DP is $$$ compared to HDMI. I would love to see DP start eating HDMI's lunch after this and the absolute shit show that was the HDMI 2.0 roll out but cheaper to implement is almost certainly going to be the driving factor when it comes to consumer grade TV / Displays and no console or other set top box maker is going to bother putting display port on their device if nobody's got a TV that can use it.
- tverbeure 3y ago> This is part of why DP is $$$ compared to HDMI. Why is that more expensive? In terms of complexity, implementing DP vs HDMI 2.1 is not materially different. They both have fixed rate links, packets, Reed-Solomon forward error correction, DSC, etc. But IIRC DP is royalty free, and HDMI is not.
- refulgentis 3y agoIt sounds like it might be more about "the market will pay more for the packet-based approach, and we shall charge what the market will bear"
- tverbeure 3y ago
- lucasyvas 3y agoThis seems like a bigger deal that it looks like - this flat out kills the legitimacy of HDMI in my mind. There's no reason to keep it.
- baq 3y agoYou’re right but I don’t think tv manufacturers care.
- lallysingh 3y agoThere are lots of TV manufacturers to choose from, thankfully.
- olyjohn 3y agoWell if you find one that sells TVs with DisplayPorts, let us know.
- gorjusborg 3y agoWith all the garbage that comes on TVs now, this is just another reason to buy a monitor with an audio-out instead.
- shiroiushi 3y agoI've never heard of an affordable 65+" monitor.
- gorjusborg 3y agoI've never needed 65" TV :)
- baq 3y agoMe neither, then I got one, now I need one ;)
- SushiHippie 3y agoIs there any reason I'd want to use HDMI instead of DisplayPort?
- fnordpiglet 3y agoYour device doesn’t have display port interfaces I guess. So for instance if you have a raspberry pi, you’re using HDMI one way or another.
- alexsereno 3y agoMasochism
- rodgerd 3y agoGood luck finding an AV receiver or TV with DisplayPort. This pretty much locks any media players into proprietary drivers.
- Chabsff 3y agoDisplayPort to HDMI converters trivially solve that. Let the TV consume HDMI all it wants while still "just" outputting DP from the computer.
- krs_ 3y agoAre there DP -> HDMI 2.1 adapters available that supports 4k120hz with VRR and HDR? I've not seen any although I've not looked too hard.
- radicality 3y agoI think these ones from CableMatters do. https://www.cablematters.com/Blog/HDMI/how-to-get-4k120hz-with-mac https://www.cablematters.com/Blog/HDMI/how-to-get-4k120hz-wi... It’s powered by this chipset afaik which supports vrr and hdr. https://www.connect.synaptics.com/spyder https://www.connect.synaptics.com/spyder
- Cu3PO42 3y agoThis is upsetting on principle alone. But I'm also upset because I have my PC hooked up to my TV for couch gaming and was hoping to do that on Linux sooner rather than later when HDR works properly. I wasn't aware HDMI 2.1 was another problem... I guess Windows is sticking around for that.
- macNchz 3y agoFWIW I have my Linux desktop hooked up to a 4k/120hz TV via a $30 CableMatters DisplayPort->HDMI dongle that seemingly supports most of the relevant functionality, as far as I can tell. It even works very smoothly over a 50 foot active fiber optic HDMI cable. There is a ton of discussion about these dongles in the issue thread linked in the article.
- Cu3PO42 3y agoThat's an excellent point. Coincidentally I also have a 15m active fiber optic HDMI cable. If and when this is the last blocker, I'll definitely look at available adapters!
- account42 3y agoCan you provide the exact model? Does "most of the relevant functionality" include VRR/FreeSync? Not that it would be a complete solution for me since I'm limited to DP 1.4.
- soulbadguy 3y ago>include VRR/FreeSync? I have been looking for a display port -> hdmi adapter with vrr support for a while.AFAIK, nothing on the market currently supports it, including the cable from cablemod mentioned by OP
- boomskats 3y agoHDMI 2.0 is capable of doing 4k @ 120Hz, but only up to YCbCr 4:2:0 8bit instead of the full YCbCr 4:4:4 10bit (though I'm not sure how close wayland is to 10bit support). It will be fine for gaming, just not for everyday PC use. FWIW I also didn't realise this until just now. I've been running my desktop at 4k@120hz recently for the buttery smooth neovide, but have been noticing that text rendering, especially syntax-highlighted text, looks awful. I'd seen the same oled panel render text way better in WSL/Windows (both using a custom pixel geometry[0] via Mactype, but also without), so I spent more time than I'm willing to admit to wrapping my head around custom pixel layouts and hinting in freetype. But no, turns out it was this all along. If you want to see the effect of 420 vs 444 chroma subsampling on text rendering, this writeup[1] has some great test images and is well worth a read. Also, if you happen to have an LG OLED panel, you can get a little debug window that confirms your signal format and refresh rate, by pressing the green button on the remote 7-8 times. [0]: https://github.com/snowie2000/mactype/issues/720 https://github.com/snowie2000/mactype/issues/720 [1]: https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/chroma-subsampling https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/chroma-subsampling
- Jun8 3y agoFor the longest time (like, the past 15 years) I’ve wanted a cheap small box that can overlay custom info, eg text, on the TV. The reason such a thing does not exist, other than projects like Bunnie’s NeTV (https://makezine.com/article/technology/review-hardware-hacker-bunnie-huang/ https://makezine.com/article/technology/review-hardware-hack...) is that decoding HDMI signals is illegal if you’re not in the club. I think the ELI5 reason is that content providers are afraid of unauthorized copying of DVDs (try taking a screenshot of a frame from your DVD player on your laptop). I’d be willing to pay up to $199 for such a box if it has an open API to input overlay text and icons.
- salawat 3y agoYou are correct. Pay attention to the conspicuously lacking feature. Odds are there's industrial collusion to keep it that way.
- hkgirjenk 3y agoChinese don't care, if there is a market they will produce it.
- refulgentis 3y agoIt sounds like you've taken a deep long journey into the mess here: I'm curious, what does it take to be a member of the club? I hope it's not just FAANGs and blessed hardware OEMs...but it also sounds likely it must be, you can't let just anyone in if you're worried about the specs leaking...but then again that sounds weird too, in that, they used to provide the spec more openly until 2.1?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- metaphor 3y agoHDMI adopter registration details here[1]; in general, $10k annual fee + royalties and of bunch of legalese. Prevailing list of 2451 adopters and affiliates here[2]; yes, AMD (listed as unabbreviated Advanced Micro Devices) has been a registered Adopter since Aug 2006 and is currently listed as a 2.1b licensee. [1]https://www.hdmi.org/register/adopterregister https://www.hdmi.org/register/adopterregister [2] https://www.hdmi.org/adopter/adoptersaffiliates https://www.hdmi.org/adopter/adoptersaffiliates
- cultureulterior 3y agoSeems like you could have a separate shell organization that built this functionality by looking at existing drivers, and just provide the patch to the kernel.
- betaby 3y agoSince, say France, has no software patents, can that work be done in France and released thereafter? ( thinking of VLC example now )
- colordrops 3y agoWould probably involve retaliation outside of France if they did this.
- nextaccountic 3y agoI think that nouveau can do that. But AMD can't touch this code because it is an US company
- regularfry 3y agoI think it's unlikely to be a patent issue. More likely a contractual one. If you sign up to the HDMI Forum to get access to the spec, you will have to sign away certain rights. Those contract terms will have been put in place by the same people who think HDCP is a good idea. If that's the case, someone needs to either leak the spec or reverse engineer the driver. One or the other will happen eventually.
- thomastjeffery 3y agoThe HDMI forum ought to be subject to anti-trust action.
- justinclift 3y agoRacketeering and/or cartel behaviour maybe?
- dusted 3y agowow, hdmi really wants to die that badly ?
- account42 3y agoI think you are fabulously optimistic if you think that Linux support will even make a noticeable difference to HDMI adoption. Even other computer uses are likely an afterthought to the HDMI consortium.
- dusted 3y agoI don't, I don't think it matters at all. The attitude however, towards someone actively working for free to make your product better and wider-used, is what makes me say this. The actively working against someone trying to make your stuff work more and give more people the opportunity to use your product, is nothing if not a clear indication of your wish for your product to die. When you're literally spending more effort working against their own stuff..
- megous 3y agoIs this about the movie industry again?
- esarbe 3y agoYes.
- coryfklein 3y agoCan AMD fork HDMI, add in driver support, and call it their own standard that just so happens to be compatible with HDMI? I'm sure they wouldn't make such a move lightly, but is there something fundamental here about the laws or specifications that prevents them from doing this?
- dvdkon 3y agoI think they could, simply by IP laws, but they have a contract with the HDMI Forum that probably doesn't allow that. They could cancel it (and reverse-engineer HDMI instead of going by the NDA'd spec), but I don't think they'd do that just for Linux support.
- justinclift 3y agoMight be a patent mine field?
- nimish 3y agoHopefully someone leaks the spec. Maybe it's already available? Note that the latest VESA specs are also restricted. FWIW, it's easily possible to sniff the control channel of an HDMI or DP connection. At that point one could attempt to reverse engineer the enabling features.
- Manabu-eo 3y agoThere has been an 80GB leak of Nvidia drivers and firmware source code not too long ago by Lapsus$. Isn't HDMI 2.1 implementation part of it?
- indrora 3y agoAcknowledging these documents can taint your mind for life if you're not careful. In the emulator scene, there is a set of documents that describe, at deep and intimate levels, the inner workings of the N64, released by a disgruntled SGI employee somewhere on USENET. It is common knowledge that reading those documents taints you from working on basically any graphics or game related source for the rest of your life. This doesn't just apply for leaked things. There's people who've worked on the Deep Parts of Windows, MacOS, etc. that they are basically barred from making contributions to certain open source projects (e.g. Wine, AsahiLinux) as anything they do would likely involve secrets that are tainted with knowledge from their former employer. Every graphics, emulator, game engine, and embedded guru on the planet has watched the Gigaleaks out of nintendo with caution, as they now have to be VERY careful where some things come from. If someone reads code from The Gigaleak, then contributes code to an emulator, the emulator may be tainted. This came to a head when the PowerVR SGX drivers were leaked ( https://www.phoronix.com/news/MTg0NTQ https://www.phoronix.com/news/MTg0NTQ ) and several developers eyes were burned as a result.
- firen777 3y agoI understand the "clean room" reason behind avoiding tainting one's mind, but in court how do people distinguish plagiarism from "convergent evolution"?
- water9 3y agoThis is what makes me wanna pirate things
- extraduder_ire 3y agoDoes anyone know what the HDMI forum want to achieve by locking down the spec like this? I can't remember any reasons given back when they decided to restrict publication of future spec updates.
- justinclift 3y ago> Does anyone know what the HDMI forum want to achieve ... Wild arse guess, but it's probably a) as close to absolute control as they can get, and b) security (of some variety) through obscurity
- redeeman 3y agoits already broken, theres ZERO security argument
- weberer 3y agoWell Microsoft is one of the members...
- TechnicalVault 3y agoMicrosoft is pretty pro-Linux these days. I'd say it's some lawyer being overly paranoid.
- prmoustache 3y agoacknowledging you can't make a dent in all markets without linux support != being pro-linux
- account42 3y agoMicrosoft is as pro Linux as the average web company values your privacy. They are pro using Linux where it is profitable. They are not pro Linux getting ahead wherever they can prevent it.
- redeeman 3y ago
- userbinator 3y agoTake their closed-source driver, run it through a decompiler and get an LLM to "understand" it, then write a "cleanroom" implementation? Might be one of the few good things this new AI stuff is good for.
- anticensor 3y agoAt that point, just send DP signal over HDMI cable...
- paulmd 3y agothe funny thing is that exists, freesync over hdmi works via precisely this mechanism (sending a DP signal over hdmi) since it predates the official introduction of HDMI Org VRR lol
- brandonr49 3y agoAnd just like that I never purchased HDMI based products again.
- account42 3y agoA noble sentiment but not one you can reasonably stick to.
- nojvek 3y agoTIL: decoding HDMI signals is illegal. I had no idea. I assumed it was an open protocol. But I guess I learnt something new today.
- soulbadguy 3y agoI find those type of blatant anti consumerism and anti competitive so frustrating. From my understanding, the spirit of those type of industry consortium/forum is to foster industry wide collaboration and innovation while style protecting the IP and patent of the originating companies. But as usual, even when the companies are well served, the consumer don't have a say on those decisions... I wish the FTC would investigate what are the economical impact of those type of decision on the consumer and the market in general.
- account42 3y ago> I find those type of blatant anti consumerism and anti competitive so frustrating. Yes and the correct solution would for the government to start representing their citizens and ensure that their rights aren't being trampled over.
- greatgib 3y agoI'm wondering if this is not something that could go against any anti trust laws, at least in Europe. Here we see the proof that a private consortium is forcing one of its member to restrict it's innovation to avoid competitors to the member of the HDMI forum to have access to its technology...