6 ms·

For me it's > Mozilla develops their own browser engine This is key. Without Mozilla we are aproaching monopoly as Safari aproaches gradually Internet Explore

For me it's > Mozilla develops their own browser engine This is key. Without Mozilla we are aproaching monopoly as Safari aproaches gradually Internet Explorer.

robertoandred 3y ago
A ludicrous and non-serious statement. Safari leads in several areas, and both it and Firefox push back against Google’s self-serving and privacy-threatening “features” it wants people to think are web standards.
- berkes 3y ago
  > Safari leads in several areas This is the first time I've ever heard someone say this. The overwelming sentiment is that safari is leagues behind, lacks features, lacks performance is has the worst standards support of all common browsers. What areas are you referring to? All we ever did at my jobs, when people complained "it doesn't work on safari" is put up a banner for safari users pointing them to either the app-store for our app, or to the fact their browser is not supported. I've only ever gotten complaints from safari users that stuff was broken (It wasn't, their browser just did stuff wrong/differently/not-yet)
  - robertoandred 3y ago
    Position sticky, has, subgrid, and filters to name a few. And now it’s pushing forward color standards, better text layout, new image formats, and more css math functions.
    - extra88 3y ago
      Yes to all of this. It's easy to find plenty of features on CanIUse.com (with the Date Relative view) that were shipped by Safari before Chrome (Firefox had SubGrid way before the others but there was a long gap until Chrome finally shipped it).
- g8oz 3y ago
  Safari suffered from years of under investment. I understand that the situation has recently changed.
- VancouverMan 3y ago
  If you use Firefox for privacy reasons, and especially if you're concerned about your data potentially ending up with Google (or other entities), please be sure to read the Firefox Privacy Notice: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/firefox/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/firefox/ It currently mentions "Google" a number of times, along with "Microsoft", "eBay", "AdMarketplace", "Cloudflare", "Comcast", "Adjust", "Fastly", "our partners", and other entities. I think a lot of people believe that Firefox respects its users' privacy more than it actually does. They may be surprised to learn how many, and which, third-parties might be involved when using Firefox.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Zambyte 3y ago
Googles recognition of this fact seems to be exactly why they keep Mozilla afloat. Firefox is the best anti-anti-trust argument that have.
- bachmeier 3y ago
  This seems to be a popular opinion, but I believe they probably do it because it's good for their bottom line. The MS case was very different. The only relevant market was desktop computing, they had a monopoly on the desktop OS market, they baked the browser into the OS for no good reason, and they were taking actions to make OS competition impossible. Having a high desktop browser market share number honestly isn't a problem.
  - Aeolun 3y ago
    It’s also hard to argue they don’t allow competition when literally anyone can pull the source at any time.
    - Zambyte 3y ago
      I don't think that's relevant to the argument about competition. Being able to pull (most) of their source code doesn't make it easy to write a competing browser engine. Why do you think writing a browser engine is an impossibly daunting task nowadays? Who made the web this way?
  - cptskippy 3y ago
    Every major tech company has used the outcome of the MS Monopoly Trial as a playbook of dos and don'ts to avoid getting sued.
rvnx 3y ago
It would be true, if in practice all the finances of Mozilla didn't come from Google. So it's like Google wearing a mask.
- usefulcat 3y ago
  Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
- dathinab 3y ago
  sure, except that Google has pretty much no control over firefox Saying Firefox is Google wearing a mask is some wild conspiracy theory.
- goda90 3y ago
  Google has an interest in not looking like an all controlling monopoly. I doubt they'd want to risk that by coercing Mozilla too much.
- Pawka 3y ago
  Google is paying because Firefox is popular. It is a chicken & egg problem.
  - kijin 3y ago
    Google is paying because if they didn't, Microsoft or somebody else might.
    - deprecative 3y ago
      Google is paying to get / retain market share. Google is also paying to prevent antitrust suits.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  Regardless of funding, it's still an independently developed browser engine.
- Dennip 3y ago
rappr 3y ago
In general, wouldn’t Chrome be much closer to being Internet Explorer?
- dathinab 3y ago
  both Chrome is doing the "I make my own web standards and push them through, ups now my feature is standard incompatible so I try to force change the upcoming standard just before it gets committed" thing IE had done in the past (it's e.g. the main reason why you sometimes end up with CORS issues on FF, the site isn't standard compatible as it doesn't handle a certain thing the standard requires from websites but due to a last minute exception for chrome doesn't require browsers to enforce). And Safari does the "I don't adopt new standards forever and have strange bugs" IE think. Funnily like IE there are a lot of devs which swear that it has no strange bug problem (because they mainly use libraries developed on/for or at least tested with safari, but if you use some more newer tech it Safari support can be quite costly).
  - cptskippy 3y ago
    To be fair, IE and Netscape existed before there was an active standards body. 25 years ago standards were developed in a waterfall like process that took years. The only time new features were released was when IE or Netscape pushed them.
  - extra88 3y ago
    Yes both Chrome and Safari are "the new IE" but for different reasons I think people make too much of Safari lagging in the adoption of standards. Yes, they lag behind on what Chrome is pushing but they're also ahead on other features, like color spaces. I'm familiar with Safari strange bugs but it's usually while I'm testing with VoiceOver so I have fewer occasions to notice bugs with Chrome or Firefox, which don't work as well with VoiceOver overall. I think of Safari being the new IE because it's not as evergreen as other browsers; old but still usable iPhones and iPads can't run the current version and aren't allowed to run anything else. Thus, developers have more reason to care about what a browser from 2+ years ago supports.
- reportgunner 3y ago

For me it's > Mozilla develops their own browser engine This is key. Without Mozilla we are aproaching monopoly as Safari aproaches gradually Internet Explorer.

robertoandred 3y ago

A ludicrous and non-serious statement. Safari leads in several areas, and both it and Firefox push back against Google’s self-serving and privacy-threatening “features” it wants people to think are web standards.

berkes 3y ago
> Safari leads in several areas This is the first time I've ever heard someone say this. The overwelming sentiment is that safari is leagues behind, lacks features, lacks performance is has the worst standards support of all common browsers. What areas are you referring to? All we ever did at my jobs, when people complained "it doesn't work on safari" is put up a banner for safari users pointing them to either the app-store for our app, or to the fact their browser is not supported. I've only ever gotten complaints from safari users that stuff was broken (It wasn't, their browser just did stuff wrong/differently/not-yet)
- robertoandred 3y ago
  Position sticky, has, subgrid, and filters to name a few. And now it’s pushing forward color standards, better text layout, new image formats, and more css math functions.
  - extra88 3y ago
    Yes to all of this. It's easy to find plenty of features on CanIUse.com (with the Date Relative view) that were shipped by Safari before Chrome (Firefox had SubGrid way before the others but there was a long gap until Chrome finally shipped it).
g8oz 3y ago
Safari suffered from years of under investment. I understand that the situation has recently changed.
VancouverMan 3y ago
If you use Firefox for privacy reasons, and especially if you're concerned about your data potentially ending up with Google (or other entities), please be sure to read the Firefox Privacy Notice: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/firefox/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/firefox/ It currently mentions "Google" a number of times, along with "Microsoft", "eBay", "AdMarketplace", "Cloudflare", "Comcast", "Adjust", "Fastly", "our partners", and other entities. I think a lot of people believe that Firefox respects its users' privacy more than it actually does. They may be surprised to learn how many, and which, third-parties might be involved when using Firefox.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Zambyte 3y ago

Googles recognition of this fact seems to be exactly why they keep Mozilla afloat. Firefox is the best anti-anti-trust argument that have.

bachmeier 3y ago
This seems to be a popular opinion, but I believe they probably do it because it's good for their bottom line. The MS case was very different. The only relevant market was desktop computing, they had a monopoly on the desktop OS market, they baked the browser into the OS for no good reason, and they were taking actions to make OS competition impossible. Having a high desktop browser market share number honestly isn't a problem.
- Aeolun 3y ago
  It’s also hard to argue they don’t allow competition when literally anyone can pull the source at any time.
  - Zambyte 3y ago
    I don't think that's relevant to the argument about competition. Being able to pull (most) of their source code doesn't make it easy to write a competing browser engine. Why do you think writing a browser engine is an impossibly daunting task nowadays? Who made the web this way?
- cptskippy 3y ago
  Every major tech company has used the outcome of the MS Monopoly Trial as a playbook of dos and don'ts to avoid getting sued.

rvnx 3y ago

It would be true, if in practice all the finances of Mozilla didn't come from Google. So it's like Google wearing a mask.

usefulcat 3y ago
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
dathinab 3y ago
sure, except that Google has pretty much no control over firefox Saying Firefox is Google wearing a mask is some wild conspiracy theory.
goda90 3y ago
Google has an interest in not looking like an all controlling monopoly. I doubt they'd want to risk that by coercing Mozilla too much.
Pawka 3y ago
Google is paying because Firefox is popular. It is a chicken & egg problem.
- kijin 3y ago
  Google is paying because if they didn't, Microsoft or somebody else might.
  - deprecative 3y ago
    Google is paying to get / retain market share. Google is also paying to prevent antitrust suits.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
Regardless of funding, it's still an independently developed browser engine.
Dennip 3y ago

rappr 3y ago

In general, wouldn’t Chrome be much closer to being Internet Explorer?

dathinab 3y ago
both Chrome is doing the "I make my own web standards and push them through, ups now my feature is standard incompatible so I try to force change the upcoming standard just before it gets committed" thing IE had done in the past (it's e.g. the main reason why you sometimes end up with CORS issues on FF, the site isn't standard compatible as it doesn't handle a certain thing the standard requires from websites but due to a last minute exception for chrome doesn't require browsers to enforce). And Safari does the "I don't adopt new standards forever and have strange bugs" IE think. Funnily like IE there are a lot of devs which swear that it has no strange bug problem (because they mainly use libraries developed on/for or at least tested with safari, but if you use some more newer tech it Safari support can be quite costly).
- cptskippy 3y ago
  To be fair, IE and Netscape existed before there was an active standards body. 25 years ago standards were developed in a waterfall like process that took years. The only time new features were released was when IE or Netscape pushed them.
- extra88 3y ago
  Yes both Chrome and Safari are "the new IE" but for different reasons I think people make too much of Safari lagging in the adoption of standards. Yes, they lag behind on what Chrome is pushing but they're also ahead on other features, like color spaces. I'm familiar with Safari strange bugs but it's usually while I'm testing with VoiceOver so I have fewer occasions to notice bugs with Chrome or Firefox, which don't work as well with VoiceOver overall. I think of Safari being the new IE because it's not as evergreen as other browsers; old but still usable iPhones and iPads can't run the current version and aren't allowed to run anything else. Thus, developers have more reason to care about what a browser from 2+ years ago supports.
reportgunner 3y ago