4 ms·

I think there's a fourth, which in my opinion is even more world shattering than the others -- the replicator. It often was shown as a novelty device to make fo

by aquova 3y ago

I think there's a fourth, which in my opinion is even more world shattering than the others -- the replicator. It often was shown as a novelty device to make food or warm beverages, but the ability to convert energy into any needed material would instantly transform the world into a post-scarcity, post-economic future. What would you even use as currency when everyone has personal money making machines? I've seen some people be skeptical towards the utopian future of Trek, and I understand that a bit as the show puts great emphasis on the warp drive, but I think the replicator is quietly the greatest invention they depict (and unlike warp drive, at least vaguely possible).

at_a_remove 3y ago
Oh, I lump the replicator in with the transporter. I can see the replicator as an ancestor of the transporter.
shiroiushi 3y ago
>I think there's a fourth, which in my opinion is even more world shattering than the others -- the replicator. It often was shown as a novelty device to make food or warm beverages, but the ability to convert energy into any needed material would instantly transform the world into a post-scarcity, post-economic future. IIRC, in Star Trek, the replicator does not convert energy into needed material: it simply reorganizes existing molecules into a new form. So, for instance, you can't use it to make yourself a bunch of gold: you could use it to convert a bunch of gold jewelry into gold bars, or vice-versa, but you would need some actual gold. It won't convert lead into gold. I think I heard or read somewhere in the lore (maybe non-canon) that the food replicators needed supplies of biochemical ingredients to use for making food. They could get that from various places, including breaking down the waste of the crewmembers, but they couldn't just conjure food out of nothing using pure energy.
thaumasiotes 3y ago
> What would you even use as currency when everyone has personal money making machines? Cumals. You can give everyone as much food as they want (and we already do!), but you can't eliminate scarcity.
- rhaps0dy 3y ago
  What is a cumal?
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    Wikipedia would have told you. A cumal is the unit in which medieval Irish monetary values are denominated. It is also the medieval Irish term for a female slave; the unit is notionally equal to the value of one such. The point of answering the question in a historical currency is to emphasize that this question is easy to answer by simply thinking "what have been some well-known historical currencies?" People trade in materials, tools, food, livestock, and women.
coryrc 3y ago
Gold-pressed latinum, obviously, as it can't be replicated.
- crooked-v 3y ago
  Also hand-woven traditional scarves, to reference a certain podcast. Sure, you can replicate them, but then it's not genuine anymore. More seriously, the basic answer for the Federation in particular would be "amounts of energy". Voyager uses exactly that, with minor but consistent references to 'replicator rations' because they're limiting the total energy usage of the ship.
jimbokun 3y ago
Star Trek is very explicitly a post-scarcity society. There was an episode of Next Generation where they revive some Earthlings who had successfully frozen themselves in the 20th century. One was a businessman who was excited to see how much the stock portfolio he had put together as a long term trust had fared. Picard had to gently explain to him wealth and money were no longer a thing.
- SenHeng 3y ago
  Last episode of the first season. Of course the Picard series itself then thoroughly destroys that thought by going on and on about money.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    In all fairness, between that episode and Picard, the Federation had extensive contact with the Ferengi.
SenHeng 3y ago
Replicator technology often comes up in episodes involving trading with a less advanced civilisation, and often mentions how the Federation/Star Fleet is not willing to share that technology because it’s too game breaking. And that unlimited energy has led them to a post scarcity, post money utopia, though that scenario seems to have been withdrawn a little in Picard.
- hef19898 3y ago
  The one thing, despite all other things I critique regarding Star Trek I still like it, that drives me crazy is how the Federation treats first contacts, from their prime directive to diplomacy in general. The whole concept is so fucked up. And every other power should be so quick in capitalizing on this: Those people won't share their miracle tech with you, we will. For a price. Kind of like what China is doing in Africa. Edit: Why would someone, say the Romulans, do that? Well, Starfleet doesn't establish contact, or invite a planet, because of some on going war or a non-unified government or no FTL tech. The Romulans step in, side with one party. They provide technology and weapons, they unite the planet as an "ally" or theirs. And now they have a new planet and systek to exploit, to use a base. Legally, and even better the Federation canot intervene. Rinse and repeat everytime Starfleet side steps a planet in a strategically important position. Do so over a couple of decades. You see were I am going, right?
  - SenHeng 3y ago
    Totally agree. For a warrior race, the Klingons sure don’t seem to do that much conquering when it would make so much in-world sense for them to be Romans-in-space. They really seemed to make every race encountered to be a relatively peaceful semi-utopian culture.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      If you extrapolate Klingon martial culture and capabilities from their traditional weapon, the Bath'let, this in-universe behaviour makes perfect sense! Edit: For some reason, every non-FTL civization Star Trek just seems to be ignored by everyone. Heck, even the Dominion ignored them in their empire building... That's authors so: In the Star Wars Legends EU there are the Ssi'ruuk. A species from the edge of the universe harvesting other lifeforms, litterally, for power generation. Throughout the books about them, the fact they could go on a spree of exterminating each and every primitive species they encounter is never mentioned or even hinted at. Nor is the fact, that with a bare 6 systems under their control, and inferior ships and tech, they should be one punitive expedition away from extinction themselves.
Ekaros 3y ago
What fails me with TNG is that why would anyone do any of the jobs that require hard boring labour anymore? Like mining dilithium, or other stuff that isn't easy to replicate. Are they all some starfleet officers toiling for decades on off-chance that one day they might get job on a vessel? The ages of people on show don't present that... The whole post-scarity kinda really breaks down when you start to look at edges. As society would not be effectively be able to keep up the production at least not as shown in shows...
- shiroiushi 3y ago
  The 60s version of Star Trek just wasn't very well thought out, I think.
- vladms 3y ago
  I see scarcity more related to primary resources (ex: energy, raw materials, machines) and for normal life purposes. They obviously have some way to decide who does what (not everybody is captain), but the impact of not being captain on what you eat, what you dress, what furniture you have is much less than today. Now, if you want an Enterprise like personal spaceship, you probably are much better of being part of the Q continuum than the human race, scarcity wise.

by aquova 3y ago

at_a_remove 3y ago

Oh, I lump the replicator in with the transporter. I can see the replicator as an ancestor of the transporter.

shiroiushi 3y ago

>I think there's a fourth, which in my opinion is even more world shattering than the others -- the replicator. It often was shown as a novelty device to make food or warm beverages, but the ability to convert energy into any needed material would instantly transform the world into a post-scarcity, post-economic future. IIRC, in Star Trek, the replicator does not convert energy into needed material: it simply reorganizes existing molecules into a new form. So, for instance, you can't use it to make yourself a bunch of gold: you could use it to convert a bunch of gold jewelry into gold bars, or vice-versa, but you would need some actual gold. It won't convert lead into gold. I think I heard or read somewhere in the lore (maybe non-canon) that the food replicators needed supplies of biochemical ingredients to use for making food. They could get that from various places, including breaking down the waste of the crewmembers, but they couldn't just conjure food out of nothing using pure energy.

thaumasiotes 3y ago

> What would you even use as currency when everyone has personal money making machines? Cumals. You can give everyone as much food as they want (and we already do!), but you can't eliminate scarcity.

rhaps0dy 3y ago
What is a cumal?
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  Wikipedia would have told you. A cumal is the unit in which medieval Irish monetary values are denominated. It is also the medieval Irish term for a female slave; the unit is notionally equal to the value of one such. The point of answering the question in a historical currency is to emphasize that this question is easy to answer by simply thinking "what have been some well-known historical currencies?" People trade in materials, tools, food, livestock, and women.

coryrc 3y ago

Gold-pressed latinum, obviously, as it can't be replicated.

crooked-v 3y ago
Also hand-woven traditional scarves, to reference a certain podcast. Sure, you can replicate them, but then it's not genuine anymore. More seriously, the basic answer for the Federation in particular would be "amounts of energy". Voyager uses exactly that, with minor but consistent references to 'replicator rations' because they're limiting the total energy usage of the ship.

jimbokun 3y ago

Star Trek is very explicitly a post-scarcity society. There was an episode of Next Generation where they revive some Earthlings who had successfully frozen themselves in the 20th century. One was a businessman who was excited to see how much the stock portfolio he had put together as a long term trust had fared. Picard had to gently explain to him wealth and money were no longer a thing.

SenHeng 3y ago
Last episode of the first season. Of course the Picard series itself then thoroughly destroys that thought by going on and on about money.
- hef19898 3y ago
  In all fairness, between that episode and Picard, the Federation had extensive contact with the Ferengi.

SenHeng 3y ago

Replicator technology often comes up in episodes involving trading with a less advanced civilisation, and often mentions how the Federation/Star Fleet is not willing to share that technology because it’s too game breaking. And that unlimited energy has led them to a post scarcity, post money utopia, though that scenario seems to have been withdrawn a little in Picard.

hef19898 3y ago
The one thing, despite all other things I critique regarding Star Trek I still like it, that drives me crazy is how the Federation treats first contacts, from their prime directive to diplomacy in general. The whole concept is so fucked up. And every other power should be so quick in capitalizing on this: Those people won't share their miracle tech with you, we will. For a price. Kind of like what China is doing in Africa. Edit: Why would someone, say the Romulans, do that? Well, Starfleet doesn't establish contact, or invite a planet, because of some on going war or a non-unified government or no FTL tech. The Romulans step in, side with one party. They provide technology and weapons, they unite the planet as an "ally" or theirs. And now they have a new planet and systek to exploit, to use a base. Legally, and even better the Federation canot intervene. Rinse and repeat everytime Starfleet side steps a planet in a strategically important position. Do so over a couple of decades. You see were I am going, right?
- SenHeng 3y ago
  Totally agree. For a warrior race, the Klingons sure don’t seem to do that much conquering when it would make so much in-world sense for them to be Romans-in-space. They really seemed to make every race encountered to be a relatively peaceful semi-utopian culture.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    If you extrapolate Klingon martial culture and capabilities from their traditional weapon, the Bath'let, this in-universe behaviour makes perfect sense! Edit: For some reason, every non-FTL civization Star Trek just seems to be ignored by everyone. Heck, even the Dominion ignored them in their empire building... That's authors so: In the Star Wars Legends EU there are the Ssi'ruuk. A species from the edge of the universe harvesting other lifeforms, litterally, for power generation. Throughout the books about them, the fact they could go on a spree of exterminating each and every primitive species they encounter is never mentioned or even hinted at. Nor is the fact, that with a bare 6 systems under their control, and inferior ships and tech, they should be one punitive expedition away from extinction themselves.

Ekaros 3y ago

What fails me with TNG is that why would anyone do any of the jobs that require hard boring labour anymore? Like mining dilithium, or other stuff that isn't easy to replicate. Are they all some starfleet officers toiling for decades on off-chance that one day they might get job on a vessel? The ages of people on show don't present that... The whole post-scarity kinda really breaks down when you start to look at edges. As society would not be effectively be able to keep up the production at least not as shown in shows...

shiroiushi 3y ago
The 60s version of Star Trek just wasn't very well thought out, I think.
vladms 3y ago
I see scarcity more related to primary resources (ex: energy, raw materials, machines) and for normal life purposes. They obviously have some way to decide who does what (not everybody is captain), but the impact of not being captain on what you eat, what you dress, what furniture you have is much less than today. Now, if you want an Enterprise like personal spaceship, you probably are much better of being part of the Q continuum than the human race, scarcity wise.