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Nobody would force your relatives to side load. I did not seen Apple users complaining that their parents are too incompetent so Apple should lock down the lap

Nobody would force your relatives to side load. I did not seen Apple users complaining that their parents are too incompetent so Apple should lock down the laptops, I am sure many no technical people use Apple laptops. And if you are a "admin" for your children/parents devices then you can lock them down.

DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
> Nobody would force your relatives to side load. Theoretical counterexample: “Introducing the Facebook App Store for iPhone users; now the only way to get Facebook.app/WhatsApp/Instagram on your phone, and without any of that pesky app tracking transparency.” ——— (As a disclaimer, I’m personally strongly in favour of side-loading, but I recognise how this will make things worse overall for everyone else)
- InsomniacL 3y ago
  > without any of that pesky app tracking transparency That could still be maintained with side-loading though? If the side-loaded app wants access to the GPS location, then the only way to get it is though the OS Location API which is what presents the Permission Dialog. The same goes for any other permissions. As part of the side-loading, any permissions that will be requested within the App could be presented to the user by the OS.
  - DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
    Part of ATT is having a "Nutrition facts label"-style forward disclaimer of what the App might ever request access to, but also combined it with the software vendor's information-handling/privacy policies. The first-half: a declaration of requested sandbox permissions is a technological problem with a straightforward solution, while the second-half is a soft, squishy, "human" problem.
- alexvoda 3y ago
  And yet I have parents that semi tech illiterate and had grandparents that were tech illiterate that managed to not install shit on their devices. At the same time, malware still manages to sneak into the Apple app store. The walled garden gives a false feeling of security while at the same time placing in bondage all those even vaguely connected to the platform.
- matwood 3y ago
  How quickly everyone forgets... https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/
- tikkabhuna 3y ago
  This is from a long time ago, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Amazon app isn't on the Android store? I can see how having a single store improves user experience. However, Apple playing both sides by saying the App Store is beneficial for users and also requiring a large % from developers doesn't sit right with me.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > This is from a long time ago, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Amazon app isn't on the Android store? Amazon Shopping has been on the Play Store from at least 2014 onwards [1]. [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.amazon.mShop.android.shopping&hl=de&gl=US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.amazon.mSh...
- simion314 3y ago
  >Theoretical counterexample: “Introducing the Facebook App Store for iPhone users; now the only way to get Facebook.app/WhatsApp/Instagram on your phone, and without any of that pesky app tracking transparency.” And you have the real world where Facebook did not demanded Android users to enable side loading to install their application, so this is FUD.
hx833001 3y ago
Life is much easier after ensuring parents are only using iPhones and iPads and not laptops. It’s not hard to imagine them clicking through whatever they need to do to install malware.
- j_maffe 3y ago
  I've had my parents using Android and Windows for years and never once did they install malware. A couple of viruses on Windows accumulated after many years sure but none on Android. I'm not sure where people are getting this logic about this.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    It's all part of the continued infantilization of our society. Well-meaning people want to protect everyone from every possible bump on the head, so they wrap the entire playground in bubble wrap (see relevant Simpsons episode). The level of paternalism is also a positive feedback loop. The more paternalistic we are, the more we need to become because people rely on the guardrails and never learn about the danger. Then at some point they climb the guardrails, assuming that if it was dangerous to climb the guardrails then they would be bigger and less penetrable, more signs and padlocks, etc. So then we make the guardrails bigger. Rinse and repeat ad finitum.
sinuhe69 3y ago
It’s not about forcing, but more about tricking. A classic example is like that: your elder parents got an fishing email with attachment, they tried to open it then it said they need that app to view with a convenient link. Unsuspecting, they clicked on the link then their phone is doomed. Just like a Windows PC. With santioned App Store, such fishing attempts will fail. And 18 years of continued history proved that the Apple approach works. The iPhone IS the most secure device for the mass consumers. Yes, I probably will miss my choices. But if that’s a problem, I’ll probably just buy an Android. Or better a fairphone. But I want a locked digital forest to safeguard my privacy and digital assets. I can experiment with my PCs and other devices. That’s also my choice.
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  Then campaign for Apple to add a feature that allows you to act as gatekeeper for your and your elderly parents. Don't require everyone else to have Apple act as that gatekeeper for them.
- jamil7 3y ago
  > your elder parents got an fishing email with attachment, they tried to open it then it said they need that app to view with a convenient link. Unsuspecting, they clicked on the link then their phone is doomed. Just like a Windows PC. The app sandbox, watchdog and entitlements system is still in place in this scenario, how is their phone “doomed”?
- j_maffe 3y ago
  Android has had this option for years with plenty of tech-illeterate people using it wither very little issues. It already exists why are we hypothesizing?
  - paulmd 3y ago
    Again: 50 times the malware infection rate is “no issues”? There’s more android malware on the web than windows malware, by a significant margin. Almost an absolute majority of malware in total. Bigger malware rate than windows isn’t an issue? Meanwhile iOS sitting at <1% of total malware.
asimpletune 3y ago
> Nobody would force your relatives to side load. O they absolutely will. There will be apps that are only available via side loading. These are apps that either a.) would otherwise be forced to comply with the user protections provided by apple's walled garden or b.) wouldn't have a viable business model and wouldn't exist to begin with.
- freedomben 3y ago
  If the app wouldn't exist to begin with, then what does it matter if it's only available via side loading. Don't install it! You obviously don't need it. The alternate option would be that the app doesn't exist at all, so you wouldn't be able to install it anyway.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

DaiPlusPlus 3y ago

> Nobody would force your relatives to side load. Theoretical counterexample: “Introducing the Facebook App Store for iPhone users; now the only way to get Facebook.app/WhatsApp/Instagram on your phone, and without any of that pesky app tracking transparency.” ——— (As a disclaimer, I’m personally strongly in favour of side-loading, but I recognise how this will make things worse overall for everyone else)

InsomniacL 3y ago
> without any of that pesky app tracking transparency That could still be maintained with side-loading though? If the side-loaded app wants access to the GPS location, then the only way to get it is though the OS Location API which is what presents the Permission Dialog. The same goes for any other permissions. As part of the side-loading, any permissions that will be requested within the App could be presented to the user by the OS.
- DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
  Part of ATT is having a "Nutrition facts label"-style forward disclaimer of what the App might ever request access to, but also combined it with the software vendor's information-handling/privacy policies. The first-half: a declaration of requested sandbox permissions is a technological problem with a straightforward solution, while the second-half is a soft, squishy, "human" problem.
alexvoda 3y ago
And yet I have parents that semi tech illiterate and had grandparents that were tech illiterate that managed to not install shit on their devices. At the same time, malware still manages to sneak into the Apple app store. The walled garden gives a false feeling of security while at the same time placing in bondage all those even vaguely connected to the platform.
matwood 3y ago
How quickly everyone forgets... https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/
tikkabhuna 3y ago
This is from a long time ago, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Amazon app isn't on the Android store? I can see how having a single store improves user experience. However, Apple playing both sides by saying the App Store is beneficial for users and also requiring a large % from developers doesn't sit right with me.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > This is from a long time ago, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Amazon app isn't on the Android store? Amazon Shopping has been on the Play Store from at least 2014 onwards [1]. [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.amazon.mShop.android.shopping&hl=de&gl=US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.amazon.mSh...
simion314 3y ago
>Theoretical counterexample: “Introducing the Facebook App Store for iPhone users; now the only way to get Facebook.app/WhatsApp/Instagram on your phone, and without any of that pesky app tracking transparency.” And you have the real world where Facebook did not demanded Android users to enable side loading to install their application, so this is FUD.

hx833001 3y ago

Life is much easier after ensuring parents are only using iPhones and iPads and not laptops. It’s not hard to imagine them clicking through whatever they need to do to install malware.

j_maffe 3y ago
I've had my parents using Android and Windows for years and never once did they install malware. A couple of viruses on Windows accumulated after many years sure but none on Android. I'm not sure where people are getting this logic about this.
- freedomben 3y ago
  It's all part of the continued infantilization of our society. Well-meaning people want to protect everyone from every possible bump on the head, so they wrap the entire playground in bubble wrap (see relevant Simpsons episode). The level of paternalism is also a positive feedback loop. The more paternalistic we are, the more we need to become because people rely on the guardrails and never learn about the danger. Then at some point they climb the guardrails, assuming that if it was dangerous to climb the guardrails then they would be bigger and less penetrable, more signs and padlocks, etc. So then we make the guardrails bigger. Rinse and repeat ad finitum.

sinuhe69 3y ago

It’s not about forcing, but more about tricking. A classic example is like that: your elder parents got an fishing email with attachment, they tried to open it then it said they need that app to view with a convenient link. Unsuspecting, they clicked on the link then their phone is doomed. Just like a Windows PC. With santioned App Store, such fishing attempts will fail. And 18 years of continued history proved that the Apple approach works. The iPhone IS the most secure device for the mass consumers. Yes, I probably will miss my choices. But if that’s a problem, I’ll probably just buy an Android. Or better a fairphone. But I want a locked digital forest to safeguard my privacy and digital assets. I can experiment with my PCs and other devices. That’s also my choice.

kwhitefoot 3y ago
Then campaign for Apple to add a feature that allows you to act as gatekeeper for your and your elderly parents. Don't require everyone else to have Apple act as that gatekeeper for them.
jamil7 3y ago
> your elder parents got an fishing email with attachment, they tried to open it then it said they need that app to view with a convenient link. Unsuspecting, they clicked on the link then their phone is doomed. Just like a Windows PC. The app sandbox, watchdog and entitlements system is still in place in this scenario, how is their phone “doomed”?
j_maffe 3y ago
Android has had this option for years with plenty of tech-illeterate people using it wither very little issues. It already exists why are we hypothesizing?
- paulmd 3y ago
  Again: 50 times the malware infection rate is “no issues”? There’s more android malware on the web than windows malware, by a significant margin. Almost an absolute majority of malware in total. Bigger malware rate than windows isn’t an issue? Meanwhile iOS sitting at <1% of total malware.

asimpletune 3y ago

> Nobody would force your relatives to side load. O they absolutely will. There will be apps that are only available via side loading. These are apps that either a.) would otherwise be forced to comply with the user protections provided by apple's walled garden or b.) wouldn't have a viable business model and wouldn't exist to begin with.

freedomben 3y ago
If the app wouldn't exist to begin with, then what does it matter if it's only available via side loading. Don't install it! You obviously don't need it. The alternate option would be that the app doesn't exist at all, so you wouldn't be able to install it anyway.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]