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Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program
- arsh4151 3y ago[dead]
- mitchbob 3y agohttps://archive.ph/PRykC https://archive.ph/PRykC
- whatever1 3y agoI wonder why we do not use some sort of labor as penalty for misdemeanor, instead of useless incarceration. You caused $XXX of damage and you have no funds to cover it, you should work for the state until you pay back the sum.
- strulovich 3y agoThere’s some variations of prisoners de facto working for below minimum wage, but that’s now what you meant. The biggest issue, if we ignore moral values and try to keep it a cold hearted calculation (which I don’t agree with), then you have one big problem: making prisoners a profitable business will encourage imprisoning more people. Economy responds to incentives, and this seems to me like a bad incentive.
- 9991 3y agoWe’re already there with corrections labor unions lobbying against decriminalizing drugs.
- el_benhameen 3y agoGiving the state financial incentives to convict and imprison people has some pretty obvious possible second-order effects. You can see them all over the world, from the growth of for-profit prisons in the US to forced labor in Xinjiang. Once the state or a state-associated entity profits from convictions, they have all the reason in the world to increase the rate of convictions.
- radicaldreamer 3y agoPeeled garlic is almost an entirely prison labor driven industry in China and is exported all over the world
- powerapple 3y agoDamn. I didn't know that. Chinese people will never buy peeled garlic. I once saw a machine to peel garlic, basically roll garlics in a container and the skins will come off automatically. I wonder if it can works out cheaper and kill this industry.
- infotainment 3y agoYup, it's always the second order effects that will get you in these criminal justice discussions. The idea seems great until you think it fully through.
- ksherlock 3y agoIf you combine the two ideas - incarceration and work -- you get prison farms, sometimes known as county farms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm
- sitharus 3y agoBring back the workhouse? It's already a thing, and there are big issues with it https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-workers-low-wages-exploited https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-wo...) Prison labour is often heavily discounted and it undercuts non-incarcerated people who're looking for a job.
- leplen 3y agoThe state of Mississippi ran Parchman Farm on this principle for decades, but as you might imagine it looked a lot like slavery. A lot of people suddenly got arrested for loitering come harvest time.
- advisedwang 3y agoThe United States does have forced labor, although not a whole lot that isn't under a pretense of a optional program. Notably at Angola (https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/11/10/angola-prison-louisiana-slave-labor/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/11/10/angola-pri...) But even if you want more, what should the prision do if a prisioner refuses to participate in the forced labor? How do you force them. Violence and torture is the only ultimate way. That is what you are demanding.
- selimthegrim 3y agoThank you for amplifying this.
- ReptileMan 3y ago> Violence and torture is the only ultimate way. Boredom will break them easier, even if it takes slightly longer.
- rl3 3y ago>I wonder why we do not use some sort of labor as penalty for misdemeanor, instead of useless incarceration. The title of the article is: Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program That might be a hint.
- jojobas 3y agoOutside moral implications, prison labour is always ineffective as hell. The world didn't move on from slavery on humanitarian grounds, slavery-free societies are just more efficient.
- loeg 3y agoWe do have non-incarcerative punishment for misdemeanors in the form of community service.
- powerapple 3y agoI kinda agree with you, I think labour is good for prisoners. They were forced to be contained in a prison anyway. I think the solution is better managed prison, where prisons would work to cover the cost the prison, including food, electricity and so on. As long as it is not for profit. It is so hard to do though. Look at the non-profit organizations around us, many of them are corrupted as well.
- dimitri_deploys 3y agoAbsolutely incredible reporting. The risks taken by the sources both at the factories and within North Korea defy comprehension for anybody lucky enough not to fear that speaking out will endanger their family.
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- Hnrobert42 3y agoIndeed. And beyond the interviews, there is plenty of other examination of direct evidence including videos posted to social media, shipping records, packing labels. That evidence all supports the argument that the PRC and Chinese companies are complicit in violating sanctions. Further, it is telling that the NK government and their Chinese co-conspirators actively fight investigations. See the literature spread to workers threatening punishment for talking to reporters.
- lobochrome 3y ago"Why we fight" Even with all the problems in the West, with all that's broken at the moment in our end-stage capitalist societies, never forget that the alternative, in almost all instances, is pure terror.
- yieldcrv 3y agoNever forget that American Exceptionalism relies on comparing itself to the most mismanaged places in the world, ignoring the existence of developed nations entirely We uniquely have the resources to be better and more advanced and create a more productive society with those resources, and merely lack the consensus to do so. There is no need to compare ourselves to anyone else to rationalize our incompetencies, consensus failures, or to spearhead development goals.
- qeest 3y agowest !== America.
- metaphor 3y agoWhy merely compare ourselves to the most mismanaged places in the world when we can imitate them under everyones' nose[1] by directly importing the model into an oft forgotten small patch of American soil in the middle of the Pacific that's out of sight and out of mind, then entrap hordes of Chinese sweatshop laborers at slave wages, brutal hours, and deplorable living conditions to manufacture garments labeled "Made in USA" for a portfolio of popular household brands? You can't make this shit up...ask me how I know. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abramoff_CNMI_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abramoff_CNMI_scandal
- yieldcrv 3y agoreminds me of the idea of derailing any conversation about business in the US because of labor practices in a far flung remote region that Congress refused to pass any reforms over Its how Americans talk about some other places so I always find that amusing
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- throwaway2990 3y ago[flagged]
- aussieguy1234 3y agoThere needs to be a law that, for any kind of Chinese seafood to be imported, foreign officials must be allowed to inspect the conditions. They already do it for food safety. When espionage laws make other monitoring impossible, there can be zero trust in these companies to do the right thing. Allow detailed, random inspections, or your imports are blocked and you make no money.
- Reubachi 3y agoDo you think this does not happen? Do you think there is any way to make this happen in a more transparent/satisfactory manner? (IE, more batch auditing) Do you think that, if there was total 100 percent auditing/QA of every single "peice" of seafood, this problem would go away? IE; this already happens, and is why customs and border patrol exist. There doesn't need to be a law targetting one specificc boogeyman, the policies are frameworks already exist. Most border patrol do not work the southern border for migrants, they work ports to audit and investigate all imports. Weather that works or not is another question, and you should ask your state reps.
- vlovich123 3y agoJust to be clear, as outlined in the article both US and UN require inspections and these plants are “certified”. Clearly the inspectors do jack all. On the other hand, I’m curious how these investigators get all these local managers to give them tours of these plants and be so open like that. Like if a stranger shows up at my work and asks for a tour (whether or not it’s media), I’m not just going to give them a tour.
- khuey 3y ago> I’m curious how these investigators get all these local managers to give them tours of these plants and be so open like that. Bribes?
- throwaway290 3y agoNot necessarily, you just pretend to be a buyer.
- hx8 3y ago> To trace the importation of seafood from factories that appear to be using North Korean labor, my team reviewed trade data, shipping contracts, and the codes that are stamped on seafood packages to monitor food safety. We found that, since 2017, ten of these plants have together shipped more than a hundred and twenty thousand tons of seafood to more than seventy American importers, which supplied grocery stores including Walmart, Giant, ShopRite, and the online grocer Weee! How can something like this be allowed into The United States. Are trade sanctions actually bureaucratic yellow tape to get around with middleman shell companies? I am completely disgusted that I may have unknowingly purchased food prepared by a facility as inhumane as this.
- nradov 3y agoTrade sanctions are actually bureaucratic yellow tape to get around with middleman shell companies. They are at least slightly effective by shifting a fraction of the profits from sanctioned entities to middlemen, so better than nothing. But mostly they allow countries to pretend like they're doing something without actually taking kinetic action. For example, there are currently a variety of sanctions against the Russian and Iranian petroleum industries. So, they sell at a slight discount to neutral countries such as India which then re-export the "clean" oil.
- jltsiren 3y agoThe purpose of sanctions is to increase friction and make the targeted entity less competitive. Nobody expects that they work perfectly, because there are always strong incentives for bypassing them. But the effects are often very significant in the long term. For example, see the differences between South Korea and North Korea. Nobody actually wants Russia to stop exporting oil, because they are one of the biggest exporters in the world. World economy would take a huge hit if that much oil disappeared from the market. The purpose of the sanctions is not to prevent Russia from exporting oil, but to reduce the amount of money they get from selling it.
- csomar 3y ago> For example, see the differences between South Korea and North Korea. This is mostly a doing of the country (or elites) itself. North Korea could be much better (it's actually doing a lot better than many third-world countries despite their backward system) but they choose not to.
- syndicatedjelly 3y agoGovernment officials carefully select workers to send to China, screening them for their political loyalties to reduce the risk of defections. To qualify, a person must generally have a job at a North Korean company and a positive evaluation from a local Party official. “These checks start at the neighborhood,” Breuker said. Candidates who have family in China, or a relative who has already defected, can be disqualified. For some positions, applicants under twenty-seven years of age who are unmarried must have living parents, who can be punished if they try to defect, according to a report from the South Korean government; applicants over twenty-seven must be married. North Korean authorities even select for height: the country’s population is chronically malnourished, and the state prefers candidates who are taller than five feet one, to avoid the official embarrassment of being represented abroad by short people. Once selected, applicants go through pre-departure training, which can last a year and often includes government-run classes covering everything from Chinese customs and etiquette to “enemy operations” and the activities of other countries’ intelligence agencies. (The North Korean government did not respond to requests for comment.) I don't think I"m ever gonna complain about my job in America again.
- xanthor 3y agoThat would generally be the goal of pieces like this.
- zaptrem 3y agoI think the goal of this piece is closer to reducing the importation of seafood that is the result of forced labor.
- xanthor 3y agoThat doesn’t surprise me, but the purpose of New Yorker articles like this is primarily geopolitical in nature, not humanitarian. You can reference what they published in the lead up to the Iraq War as proof.
- vlovich123 3y agoGiven what’s outlined in the description above, forced labor doesn’t sound like it would meet the criteria as the chance for defection would be higher (+ glowing reviews from your boss). It sounds more like a description for a highly competitive jobs program.
- zoklet-enjoyer 3y agoI'm reminded of this story about how a lot of seafood is mislabeled and the supply chain is hard to track. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/16/fish-detectives-the-sleuths-using-e-dna-to-fight-seafood https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/16/fish-det...
- Loughla 3y agoReal question; is there any kind of revolutionary force inside NK? It seems like there should be, but we never hear about it. Anybody know?
- duxup 3y agoAll indications are that North Korea is incredibly tightly controlled. I've never seen any report of any independent of the government organization or faction or movement within North Korea.
- ch4s3 3y agoIt would be basically impossible. There’s an internal security apparatus partially trained by the East German Stasi. Anyone and everyone could be an informant to the state. Surveillance is assumed and whole families are sent to camps when people are found to be at odds with the state. What little we know from defectors, East German archives, and satellite imagery is terrifying.
- overstay8930 3y agoAsk anyone who lived in Eastern Europe pre-Glasnost what happened to people that wanted change
- gambiting 3y agoSure, but (at least in Poland) there always were hidden organisations for people who disagreed with the government. Maybe not straight up militia, but there was an element outside of the government view and control.
- gambiting 3y agoIt seems like there used to be at least a network of missionaries and covert organisations focused on helping North Koreans escape, but since covid hit it has all but disappeared - NK really went hard on survailence, absolute zero tolerance on dissident(even less than before) and equally China(common path for refugees before) stepped up their own surveilance game and nearly always succeeds at catching anyone attempting to cross through their country. Some interesting details here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlX7tl1QvJs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlX7tl1QvJs
- designium 3y agoGreat reporting. It's sad the state of affairs and I need to remind myself that those cheap seafood we get from the supermarket maybe coming from these labors.
- zactato 3y agoIt’s more expensive, but there is a lot of seafood that’s produced in the US. No guarantees of humane treatmenr, but I bet much better than East Asia.
- demondemidi 3y agoCheap seafood? Check out Mr moneybags over here who can afford seafood.
- nimbius 3y agocasual reminder for US readers: this is all pretty common fare in US prisons as well. the 13th amendment to the US constitution does not cover prisoners. As such, most are forced to work, given a token salary to keep up appearances, and punished with solitary confinement if they do not comply. https://www.themarshallproject.org/2022/05/31/how-the-newest-federal-prison-became-one-of-the-deadliest https://www.themarshallproject.org/2022/05/31/how-the-newest... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_Stat...
- quatrefoil 3y agoI find it perfectly possible to be concerned about some aspects of the US penal system without implying its equivalency to the terror endured under one of the most oppressive political regimes in the world.
- DinaCoder99 3y agoIs there an implication of equivalence of any general sort of the two societies? I think this is just a rejection that north korea is somehow uniquely capable of this specific sort of terror.
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- contingencies 3y agoMines in Mongolia also do deals to use North Korean workers. I am unsure if they are foreign owned, but they have foreign management. Source: Met one of them who openly told me about it, about 3-4 years ago.
- Despegar 3y agoIt's time for the US to end the sanctions on North Korea. The abuse workers face is a straight line result from the fact that virtually all aspects of their economy are under total embargo. North Korea is a nuclear state, and they will never go back to not being one. North Koreans have been working in China for decades and that won't change either because China is not going to let them become a failed state.
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- givemeethekeys 3y agoDon't they first need to get along with their neighbors to the South?
- Despegar 3y agoThey have for decades since the armistice agreement was signed in 1953 after the Korean War.
- givemeethekeys 3y agoWikipedia disagrees: "In February–March 2021, South Korea continued to omit North Korea's "enemy" status from the South Korean military's White Paper after downgrading the status of Japan" It gets worse from there. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea%E2%80%93South_Korea_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea%E2%80%93South_Kore...
- Despegar 3y agoApparently you have a higher standard for "get along" than I do. I think not being actively at war for decades qualifies.
- powerapple 3y ago
- zactato 3y agoAlso, let’s not forget that much of the seafood coming from South East Asia has a high risk of using slave labor. Make your own decisions about what that means for you.
- krapp 3y agoAmerican capitalism runs on slave labor from South America, Asia and Africa. Our politicians rail against immigration and globalism while brown people cut their lawns and clean their homes for scam wages. The party that championed globalism and outsourcing is the same party that's now complaining about the intended result. This is why people say there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. To simply exist within the system of American imperialism is to be complicit in crimes against humanity.
- aamoyg 3y agoI don't think it means that you are complicit, because that signifies intent to exploit. If you are an immigrant who is exploited by the same system who naturalized to citizen (and is still exploited in the local context) I would hope you don't want anyone else to go through that.
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- k_sze 3y agoInteresting how an investigative journalist won’t open up his threads for commenting on X/Twitter.
- MichaelMoser123 3y ago> Since then, North Koreans have been sent to Russia, Poland, Qatar, Uruguay, and Mali. Poland? Poland is a EU member country, is it legal to employ North Korean slaves in the EU? Update: Found the following link https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2017-006243_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2017-00624... Some Christel Schaldemose was asking the European Parliament the same question back in 2017, but I didn't see an answer.
- Throw494955 3y agoPeople send to EU are not some slaves, but highly loyal party members.
- gambiting 3y agoHighly loyal party members are being "sent" for work in Poland?
- ReptileMan 3y agoIt is quite easy to be quite loyal if your family is going to be sent to the charming camps if you think of staying in Poland. Also in communist countries being member of the party doesn't mean much. I think around 30% of NK population are party members.
- lock-the-spock 3y agoI guess it's more that it is difficult to ensure freedoms when people stay 'voluntarily' and don't speak out. There are similar stories about Chinese clothing factories based in Italy (thus: close to Chinese prices but "Made in Italy" labels). Workers without any locally relevant language skills are brought there, housed in Company housing, eat from canteen/company shops with produce they know, etc. Hard to fight if all the formalities of labour law are respected and the employees do not speak out against abuse/actual reality of implementation. Very similar to how U.S. companies, in particular the slaughterhouses are known to work, with often irregular migrants employed for their wonderful exploitation potential. You won't speak out if you think you'll be deported and can't suppor your starving family back home... And of course even much worse is known from the seafood sector, where notably Chinese vessels essentially enslave south east asian workers - where are you going to go when locked on a tiny boat...? https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/16/the-chinese-workers-who-assemble-designer-bags-in-tuscany https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/16/the-chinese-wo... https://ww.fashionnetwork.com/news/made-in-italy-by-chinese-workers,377237.html https://ww.fashionnetwork.com/news/made-in-italy-by-chinese-... https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/10/16/the-crimes-behind-the-seafood-you-eat https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/10/16/the-crimes-beh...
- NoGravitas 3y agoGee, that's almost as bad as US prison and migrant labor. Someone ought to do something.
- frobishercresc 3y ago> Their anonymous responses were transcribed and sent back to me This doesn't pass the smell test for me, this journalist never directly met or claims to have verified the identity of anyone that they are speaking to, the contacts were provided to them through unspecified "South Korean contacts" (are these contacts independent? not affiliated with SK state sponsored anti-NK propaganda initiatives?). Of course they shouldn't be explaining who exactly is giving them these testimonies but it makes it very convenient to say 'I got this information from super secret sources, you'll just have to trust me that they are unbiased, forget the fact I am working for a USA based publication' The single video that is actually shown simply shows the sort of seafood processing factories you see all over the world, nothing that proves anything specific about the accusations. Furthermore, this hasn't been accompanied by any release of the supposed documented evidence (with suitable redactions). I also love the use of handwritten testimonies to visually make the article look like it's backed by evidence, when this is the very evidence which has no established veracity. I've seen how the USA media love insinuiating things through 'anonymous sources' about Iraq and countless other 'unfriendly' countries to justify devestating military invasions or economic sanctions on foreign countries. All to simply to enrich their own bottom line, keep the US Dollar flowing and keep their stronghold on resource extraction from poorer countries. For a counter-factual, see this video with interviews with actual NK people living in SK on how NK defectors are treated by SK government, including testimony from a lawyer who has publically worked on defending them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V4Hnl7J9H4&list=LL&index=2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V4Hnl7J9H4&list=LL&index=2