10 ms·

It boils down to - Labor relations (unions in Arizona pushed back agains Taiwanese workers build the factory) - Local partners (Denso/Sony and Toyota investin

It boils down to - Labor relations (unions in Arizona pushed back agains Taiwanese workers build the factory) - Local partners (Denso/Sony and Toyota investing in Japanese project, TSMC on its own in the US) - Subsidies (Japan delivered on promises, US didn't) - Ambition (12nm-28nm in Japan, 4nm in US) It seems the US gov is not very serious about it while Japanese gov surely is. It sounds self-inflicted. (edit: formatting)

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
schainks 3y ago
The US government currently is inhabited by one political party whose goal is to hinder US interests in any way possible while complaining that the US doesn’t do enough to bolster said interests. So yes, part of the government is serious, while another part is serious about doing the opposite, which does produce the intended effect: public perception that the US government is not serious about these things. What it will take for all political interests to align for the sake of US interests? Probably turning off financial lobbying from shadow money groups.
- Pigalowda 3y ago
  Says you! I think it’s important for my political party to only a function when it has majority control over the executive, legislative, and judicial branches as well as majority control over provincial governance. Once we have that we can show our voters how disappointment really feels. It needs to feel so soul crushing we completely implode our party and die out in irrelevance. That’s my thoughts on it anyways.
  - throwanem 3y ago
    How dare you suggest a political party should offer some material benefit to its supporters in exchange for their effort and partisanship!
- huytersd 3y ago
  Political influence isn’t going to align if two sides of the country are irrevocably misaligned on some fundamentals (racism, LGBT etc.). There’s no middle ground (mainly LGBT) on these issues so it’s going to have to come down to a pseudo civil war with one side prevailing.
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    As a gay person, this seems fundamentally wrong to me. There was even more distance among the parties on most LGBT issues 25 years ago, but the ability of the parties to compromise on anything is much, much worse now than it was then. I also think there is much more "crossover" on LGBT issues than one may believe. Tons of Republicans are pro-gay marriage, and tons of Democrats have real concerns about allowing trans women to compete in women's divisions in sports.
    - huytersd 3y ago
      The trans thing is the deal breaker when it comes to the right. We never saw massive resistance to gay anything for the last decade or so.
      - Smoosh 3y ago
        I think that the right lost the battle over gay rights as general attitudes had become accepting of them over the past 3-5 decades, but they don't want to lose the war so they are digging in over rights for transgender people.
        huytersd 3y ago
        I feel it’s a little more than that. The right have never accepted feminized men and trans is taking it to its furthest conclusion. I genuinely believe the right doesn’t care about manly men fucking each other.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- mikewarot 3y ago
  The US government is currently inhabited by one political Duopoly, the RepubliCrats, who cater to the interests of the 0.001%, who keep us divided. It's been that way since at least 1970, if this set of interviews from 1970 is to be believed[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeeA-IU45pc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeeA-IU45pc
  - api 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - coldtea 3y ago
      >What we have today is an overtly fascist MAGA Republican party that calls openly for dictatorship. This is UFO level conspiratorial thinking, but it's however encouraged by the established press. What exactly happened in 4 years of Trump? Basically more of the same. The idea that it represents some kind of fascist danger or whatever is oversold for partisan gains by the other party.
      - halfmatthalfcat 3y ago
        You left out the part where the President tried to persuade the Vice President not to ratify the election based on manufactured false pretense of election fraud. Or that same President trying to persuade another State’s elected officials to “find votes” so he could win.
        kelipso 3y ago
        Sorry but complaining about things like this and calling it fascism or end of the world or whatever looks like a joke or someone doing hysterics and not remotely anything to be taken seriously.
        TOMDM 3y ago
        They didn't call it an end to the world; they claimed that attempts to subvert democracy are fascistic. Where's the hyperbole?
- UberFly 3y ago
  I'm honestly not sure which one you're referring to.
  - e40 3y ago
    Must be the Republicans because they have been trying to strangle government for decades by making it look incompetent so they can point to it and say “see, I told you.”
    - twoodfin 3y ago
      Republicans have basically 0 to do with any of the reasons the Biden administration is struggling to implement the CHIPS act. They’re struggling because a) Industrial policy is hard enough in a federal system without … b) A federal government inexperienced with implementing industrial policy and … c) An administration that sees industrial policy as YA avenue to achieve its social objectives, so called “everything bagel liberalism” [1]. I think industrial policy is a terrible idea, so not too distressed to see it trip out of the starting gate. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/02/opinion/democrats-liberalism.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/02/opinion/democrats-liberal...
      - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
        The comment we're discussing just mentions “US interests”. So for example providing military support to Ukraine, which the republicans keep blocking, or establishing programs to manage the border, which Biden has proposed and Republicans now oppose because they don’t want that issue relieved before the election, so they can point at how bad Biden is with the border.
        rayiner 3y ago
        Supporting Ukraine isn’t in America’s interest. Stopping bankrolling random foreign wars was one thing republicans finally got right after decades of getting it wrong. And the border proposal was a fake-out, just like Reagan’s amnesty, which was supposed to be combined with border controls but never was. The goal of the recent border legislation was to make 5,000 illegal crossings a day (5 times higher than under Obama) the “new normal.”
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  Edit: I misread the comment
  - downrightmike 3y ago
    You read their comment wrong.
- shiroiushi 3y ago
  >So yes, part of the government is serious, while another part is serious about doing the opposite, which does produce the intended effect: public perception that the US government is not serious about these things. I disagree with your conclusion. My conclusion is that, yes, the US government really is not serious about these things. It's not just a "public perception", it's reality. It's reality because half the people in that government act this way and make it reality, and because those half the people in government are voted into their positions by half the voters in the population. >What it will take for all political interests to align for the sake of US interests? Probably turning off financial lobbying from shadow money groups. Financial lobbying isn't the reason that half the people are voting for a party that works against US's best interests. Those voters really do believe in the people they're voting for, and think that they really can make America like the 1950s again somehow.
  - schainks 3y ago
    You're right. The government is only as serious about this as the people are who elect our leaders. > Financial lobbying isn't the reason that half the people are voting for a party that works against US's best interests. Those voters really do believe in the people they're voting for, and think that they really can make America like the 1950s again somehow. If the financial lobbying machine was turned off tomorrow, most of the money for the culture war goes away on mass media. I do agree said voters think they can "roll back the clock," to to speak, but it is an erroneous belief. 1950s USA had much more of that socialism thing that resulted in technological advancements and super-power-ness. One thing about the 1950s those people have right is that median income back then was closely tied to productivity, whereas today it just isn't, which is shafting everyone except the ultra wealthy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Productivity_and_Real_Median_Family_Income_Growth_in_the_United_States.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_Unite...)
- xp84 3y ago
  > one political party whose goal is to hinder US interests in any way possible while complaining that the US doesn’t do enough to bolster said interests. I’m really amused because I genuinely can’t tell which of our useless “parties” you’re referring to!
  - schainks 3y ago
    Relevant meme: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/233/325/33a https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/233/325/33a
somethoughts 3y ago
What states in the US should do is create a special economic zone where foreign companies can have have more freedoms with respect to labor relations initially. Then slowly convert those special economic zone into a normal commercial zone once critical mass has relocated to that location. I think the technical prowess w.r.t. semiconductor development and fab building probably exists in the US but its spread across the country in random locations. I think the issue in Arizona is you have a bunch of non-semiconductor construction companies attempting to bid on very specialized construction projects. As such they include a bunch of overhead in putting together the teams and ramping up on the technology.
- CPLX 3y ago
  No. They shouldn’t. I can’t think of a worse American policy idea than giving preferential treatment letting companies exploit American workers more aggressively, but only if the owners of the company who will profit from this are not American.
  - ccorcos 3y ago
    I don’t think the exception would be just for foreign companies. It could be a geography set aside for free trade and no tariffs. This kind of thing worked very well in Shenzhen, Hong Kong, and (the entire country of) Singapore for example.
  - fshr 3y ago
    We don't need to eat the whole pie! We'd still get the taxes, wages, institutional training to develop skilled labor, and onshoring. Let them keep their IP and profit from their evolution.
  - somethoughts 3y ago
    This is about temporarily allowing companies such as TSMC to bring in their specialized fab building construction companies to get these mega projects built on time instead of insisting on fully local non-specialized labor. I think the key part of the proposal that you are missing is that it eventually (i.e. after a decade) gets rolled back to a normal economic zone and the special foreign privileges get rolled back. What you want is just insist that a small contingent of local specialized project teams be allowed to shadow the foreign teams. Its a bit of a marshmallow test for unions.
TaylorAlexander 3y ago
I’m sure the point about labor unions is true in this case, but I did a quick search and it seems labor union participation is even higher in Japan. 17% in the Japan and 10% in the USA. I think in many ways we do labor unions wrong in the US, and from my cursory knowledge it seems like the Taft-Hartley act has a lot to do with it. That concentrated union power in the leadership which created an opportunity for more corruption, and also weakened certain powers that would make labor struggles more useful. Of course in Japan, they would likely use Japanese workers due to strong nationalist sentiment so this particular issue wouldn’t occur. I’m only saying this because some will read your comment and take away “labor unions bad”. I suspect that the truth is we aren’t doing labor unions properly here, and also the desire to use Taiwanese workers suggests there is something lacking about the US education system. It is of course reasonable for US workers to want a chance, but we need to make sure they are worthy of that chance. You can leave it up to the market to let people find higher education, but that’s going to leave smaller numbers in the end due to how wealth is distributed in this country. If you want higher numbers of educated workers, more provisions for affordable education are required.
- lxm 3y ago
  To clarify, this wasn't even a spat over unionized labor at the factory, this was about who gets to build the factory. TSMC wanted to bring some highly specialized labor from Taiwan (who presumably have experience with building this type of facilities) and Arizona Building and Construction Trades Council insisting their local dudes would do the job just fine.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Labor unions in different countries are completely different. For example, China has almost 100% union participation but it isn’t very meaningful. In some countries, unions are merely fronts for organized crime, in Japan and Northern Europe they are more like active partners.
  - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
    Sure. This reinforces the point that labor unions are not inherently a problem, but the way we do labor unions certainly can be. Most rhetoric I hear in the US is if the former type. I only know bits and pieces but it sounds like perhaps we could learn from how Germany does labor unions (and higher education and healthcare for that matter).
mhh__ 3y ago
12nm Vs 4nm seems like a big deal
bparsons 3y ago
Japan is just better at building stuff. They have very advanced industrial policy which ensures that they have the capacity to manufacture goods and build stuff better than anyone else in the world. Even if the US had a functioning political system, it would still take decades to catch up. The IRA is a good first step, but it doesn't begin to address the underlying problems in the US economy. If you let the free market decide everything, it will always be more profitable to invest your money in a SAAS company or a suburban strip mall. The two countries are optimizing for very different things, and are dealing with a very different set of conditions.
healthdare 3y ago
Free market, it's valued more somewhere else. Seller sells it there. Simple as.
panick21_ 3y ago
The US is serious, they are just incompetent.
testhest 3y ago
US labor unions are communists where they are social democrats in Northern Europe and Japan. Extreme antagonists vs coorporating partners.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

schainks 3y ago

The US government currently is inhabited by one political party whose goal is to hinder US interests in any way possible while complaining that the US doesn’t do enough to bolster said interests. So yes, part of the government is serious, while another part is serious about doing the opposite, which does produce the intended effect: public perception that the US government is not serious about these things. What it will take for all political interests to align for the sake of US interests? Probably turning off financial lobbying from shadow money groups.

Pigalowda 3y ago
Says you! I think it’s important for my political party to only a function when it has majority control over the executive, legislative, and judicial branches as well as majority control over provincial governance. Once we have that we can show our voters how disappointment really feels. It needs to feel so soul crushing we completely implode our party and die out in irrelevance. That’s my thoughts on it anyways.
- throwanem 3y ago
  How dare you suggest a political party should offer some material benefit to its supporters in exchange for their effort and partisanship!
huytersd 3y ago
Political influence isn’t going to align if two sides of the country are irrevocably misaligned on some fundamentals (racism, LGBT etc.). There’s no middle ground (mainly LGBT) on these issues so it’s going to have to come down to a pseudo civil war with one side prevailing.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  As a gay person, this seems fundamentally wrong to me. There was even more distance among the parties on most LGBT issues 25 years ago, but the ability of the parties to compromise on anything is much, much worse now than it was then. I also think there is much more "crossover" on LGBT issues than one may believe. Tons of Republicans are pro-gay marriage, and tons of Democrats have real concerns about allowing trans women to compete in women's divisions in sports.
  - huytersd 3y ago
    The trans thing is the deal breaker when it comes to the right. We never saw massive resistance to gay anything for the last decade or so.
    - Smoosh 3y ago
      I think that the right lost the battle over gay rights as general attitudes had become accepting of them over the past 3-5 decades, but they don't want to lose the war so they are digging in over rights for transgender people.
      - huytersd 3y ago
        I feel it’s a little more than that. The right have never accepted feminized men and trans is taking it to its furthest conclusion. I genuinely believe the right doesn’t care about manly men fucking each other.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
mikewarot 3y ago
The US government is currently inhabited by one political Duopoly, the RepubliCrats, who cater to the interests of the 0.001%, who keep us divided. It's been that way since at least 1970, if this set of interviews from 1970 is to be believed[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeeA-IU45pc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeeA-IU45pc
- api 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >What we have today is an overtly fascist MAGA Republican party that calls openly for dictatorship. This is UFO level conspiratorial thinking, but it's however encouraged by the established press. What exactly happened in 4 years of Trump? Basically more of the same. The idea that it represents some kind of fascist danger or whatever is oversold for partisan gains by the other party.
    - halfmatthalfcat 3y ago
      You left out the part where the President tried to persuade the Vice President not to ratify the election based on manufactured false pretense of election fraud. Or that same President trying to persuade another State’s elected officials to “find votes” so he could win.
      - kelipso 3y ago
        Sorry but complaining about things like this and calling it fascism or end of the world or whatever looks like a joke or someone doing hysterics and not remotely anything to be taken seriously.
        TOMDM 3y ago
        They didn't call it an end to the world; they claimed that attempts to subvert democracy are fascistic. Where's the hyperbole?
UberFly 3y ago
I'm honestly not sure which one you're referring to.
- e40 3y ago
  Must be the Republicans because they have been trying to strangle government for decades by making it look incompetent so they can point to it and say “see, I told you.”
  - twoodfin 3y ago
    Republicans have basically 0 to do with any of the reasons the Biden administration is struggling to implement the CHIPS act. They’re struggling because a) Industrial policy is hard enough in a federal system without … b) A federal government inexperienced with implementing industrial policy and … c) An administration that sees industrial policy as YA avenue to achieve its social objectives, so called “everything bagel liberalism” [1]. I think industrial policy is a terrible idea, so not too distressed to see it trip out of the starting gate. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/02/opinion/democrats-liberalism.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/02/opinion/democrats-liberal...
    - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
      The comment we're discussing just mentions “US interests”. So for example providing military support to Ukraine, which the republicans keep blocking, or establishing programs to manage the border, which Biden has proposed and Republicans now oppose because they don’t want that issue relieved before the election, so they can point at how bad Biden is with the border.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        Supporting Ukraine isn’t in America’s interest. Stopping bankrolling random foreign wars was one thing republicans finally got right after decades of getting it wrong. And the border proposal was a fake-out, just like Reagan’s amnesty, which was supposed to be combined with border controls but never was. The goal of the recent border legislation was to make 5,000 illegal crossings a day (5 times higher than under Obama) the “new normal.”
TaylorAlexander 3y ago
Edit: I misread the comment
- downrightmike 3y ago
  You read their comment wrong.
shiroiushi 3y ago
>So yes, part of the government is serious, while another part is serious about doing the opposite, which does produce the intended effect: public perception that the US government is not serious about these things. I disagree with your conclusion. My conclusion is that, yes, the US government really is not serious about these things. It's not just a "public perception", it's reality. It's reality because half the people in that government act this way and make it reality, and because those half the people in government are voted into their positions by half the voters in the population. >What it will take for all political interests to align for the sake of US interests? Probably turning off financial lobbying from shadow money groups. Financial lobbying isn't the reason that half the people are voting for a party that works against US's best interests. Those voters really do believe in the people they're voting for, and think that they really can make America like the 1950s again somehow.
- schainks 3y ago
  You're right. The government is only as serious about this as the people are who elect our leaders. > Financial lobbying isn't the reason that half the people are voting for a party that works against US's best interests. Those voters really do believe in the people they're voting for, and think that they really can make America like the 1950s again somehow. If the financial lobbying machine was turned off tomorrow, most of the money for the culture war goes away on mass media. I do agree said voters think they can "roll back the clock," to to speak, but it is an erroneous belief. 1950s USA had much more of that socialism thing that resulted in technological advancements and super-power-ness. One thing about the 1950s those people have right is that median income back then was closely tied to productivity, whereas today it just isn't, which is shafting everyone except the ultra wealthy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Productivity_and_Real_Median_Family_Income_Growth_in_the_United_States.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_Unite...)
xp84 3y ago
> one political party whose goal is to hinder US interests in any way possible while complaining that the US doesn’t do enough to bolster said interests. I’m really amused because I genuinely can’t tell which of our useless “parties” you’re referring to!
- schainks 3y ago
  Relevant meme: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/233/325/33a https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/233/325/33a

somethoughts 3y ago

What states in the US should do is create a special economic zone where foreign companies can have have more freedoms with respect to labor relations initially. Then slowly convert those special economic zone into a normal commercial zone once critical mass has relocated to that location. I think the technical prowess w.r.t. semiconductor development and fab building probably exists in the US but its spread across the country in random locations. I think the issue in Arizona is you have a bunch of non-semiconductor construction companies attempting to bid on very specialized construction projects. As such they include a bunch of overhead in putting together the teams and ramping up on the technology.

CPLX 3y ago
No. They shouldn’t. I can’t think of a worse American policy idea than giving preferential treatment letting companies exploit American workers more aggressively, but only if the owners of the company who will profit from this are not American.
- ccorcos 3y ago
  I don’t think the exception would be just for foreign companies. It could be a geography set aside for free trade and no tariffs. This kind of thing worked very well in Shenzhen, Hong Kong, and (the entire country of) Singapore for example.
- fshr 3y ago
  We don't need to eat the whole pie! We'd still get the taxes, wages, institutional training to develop skilled labor, and onshoring. Let them keep their IP and profit from their evolution.
- somethoughts 3y ago
  This is about temporarily allowing companies such as TSMC to bring in their specialized fab building construction companies to get these mega projects built on time instead of insisting on fully local non-specialized labor. I think the key part of the proposal that you are missing is that it eventually (i.e. after a decade) gets rolled back to a normal economic zone and the special foreign privileges get rolled back. What you want is just insist that a small contingent of local specialized project teams be allowed to shadow the foreign teams. Its a bit of a marshmallow test for unions.

TaylorAlexander 3y ago

I’m sure the point about labor unions is true in this case, but I did a quick search and it seems labor union participation is even higher in Japan. 17% in the Japan and 10% in the USA. I think in many ways we do labor unions wrong in the US, and from my cursory knowledge it seems like the Taft-Hartley act has a lot to do with it. That concentrated union power in the leadership which created an opportunity for more corruption, and also weakened certain powers that would make labor struggles more useful. Of course in Japan, they would likely use Japanese workers due to strong nationalist sentiment so this particular issue wouldn’t occur. I’m only saying this because some will read your comment and take away “labor unions bad”. I suspect that the truth is we aren’t doing labor unions properly here, and also the desire to use Taiwanese workers suggests there is something lacking about the US education system. It is of course reasonable for US workers to want a chance, but we need to make sure they are worthy of that chance. You can leave it up to the market to let people find higher education, but that’s going to leave smaller numbers in the end due to how wealth is distributed in this country. If you want higher numbers of educated workers, more provisions for affordable education are required.

lxm 3y ago
To clarify, this wasn't even a spat over unionized labor at the factory, this was about who gets to build the factory. TSMC wanted to bring some highly specialized labor from Taiwan (who presumably have experience with building this type of facilities) and Arizona Building and Construction Trades Council insisting their local dudes would do the job just fine.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Labor unions in different countries are completely different. For example, China has almost 100% union participation but it isn’t very meaningful. In some countries, unions are merely fronts for organized crime, in Japan and Northern Europe they are more like active partners.
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  Sure. This reinforces the point that labor unions are not inherently a problem, but the way we do labor unions certainly can be. Most rhetoric I hear in the US is if the former type. I only know bits and pieces but it sounds like perhaps we could learn from how Germany does labor unions (and higher education and healthcare for that matter).

mhh__ 3y ago

12nm Vs 4nm seems like a big deal

bparsons 3y ago

Japan is just better at building stuff. They have very advanced industrial policy which ensures that they have the capacity to manufacture goods and build stuff better than anyone else in the world. Even if the US had a functioning political system, it would still take decades to catch up. The IRA is a good first step, but it doesn't begin to address the underlying problems in the US economy. If you let the free market decide everything, it will always be more profitable to invest your money in a SAAS company or a suburban strip mall. The two countries are optimizing for very different things, and are dealing with a very different set of conditions.

healthdare 3y ago

Free market, it's valued more somewhere else. Seller sells it there. Simple as.

panick21_ 3y ago

The US is serious, they are just incompetent.

testhest 3y ago

US labor unions are communists where they are social democrats in Northern Europe and Japan. Extreme antagonists vs coorporating partners.