19 ms·

I don't think the cheapest APC Back-UPS units can be monitored except in Windows

191 points by trelane 3y ago

NelsonMinar 3y ago
I once installed apcupsd only to be so appalled by its lack of security design I ripped it out PDQ. It demands to run as root so it can run shutdown (and maybe access the USB?!) and goes downhill from there.
- nottorp 3y ago
  Well, you want it to run shutdown don't you? Afraid your ups will hack you?
  - NelsonMinar 3y ago
    There's many safer ways to let a mostly untrusted process run shutdown. Like a sudo setup letting the UPS user only run shutdown. Or /etc/shutdown.allow. Or something using CAP_SYS_BOOT. systemd might have a solution too. I get the impression I just spent more time thinking about this writing my response to you than the APC folks ever did. Yes, I am afraid my UPS will hack me. More specifically I'm afraid this badly written closed source software will have some security hole that can be used to escalate to root.
    - nottorp 3y ago
      > this badly written closed source software We are talking about apcupsd right? http://apcupsd.org http://apcupsd.org Were you under the impression it's official software done by APC?
ethbr1 3y ago
>> TL;DR: Despite otherwise seeming to work correctly, I can’t monitor a Back-UPS BX1600MI in Linux without seeing a constant stream of spurious battery detach/reattach and power fail/restore events that last less than 2 seconds each. It sounds like the Windows software probably debounces the incoming events, only bubbling up those that are sufficiently time-stable, to account for bargain sensor false positives? Edit: Looks like the apcupsd collection also has some EEPROM programming utilities... (for supported devices) http://www.apcupsd.org/manual/#configuration-directives-used-to-set-the-ups-eeprom http://www.apcupsd.org/manual/#configuration-directives-used...
- bell-cot 3y ago
  I'd bet you're right. Experience at $Job is that certain cheapo UPS's can be miserably twitchy about detecting power problems and switching to their inverters. After a week of the clickity-clicks of the cut-over relays - $Employee and his office mates may ask for the UPS to be removed.
- bulk88 3y ago
  Right, the window tool debounces the events, IMO the battery attach/disconnnect messages are a poor mans heartbeat signal on the protocol. That ACPI/Windows didn't "sleep" the USB port, or that the controller in the UPS (chinese junk) didn't crash.
bell-cot 3y ago
> Our power grid is very reliable. Looking at availability information from “uptimed“, my home file server has been powered on for 99.97% of the time in the last 14 years. That includes time spent moving house and a day when the house power was off for several hours while the kitchen was refitted! > However, in December 2023 a fault with our electric oven popped the breaker for the sockets causing everything to be harshly powered off. My fileserver took it badly and one drive died. That wasn’t a huge issue as it has a redundant filesystem, but I didn’t like it. > I decided I could afford to treat myself to a relatively cheap UPS. Just from that, I'd say he for-sure should have avoided UPS's, and gotten a "real" surge protector. The "shockwave" from that high-amperage short is far more likely to have done the damage than the mere loss of power. And the output of cheap UPS's is often far worse than the input. [Edit: And good surge protection is never a feature of cheap UPS's.]
- jeffbee 3y ago
  The quoted material sounds like a poor analysis. It doesn't take into account all the times the UPS would have failed while the grid was fine. UPSs are not pure goods with no downsides that merely add to availability. Commercial UPS are very unreliable, bordering on a scam.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    It also doesn't account for the fire risk — a cheap UPS is much more likely to catch fire than a PC / NAS.
    - WWLink 3y ago
      Yea, a disturbing amount of reviews on amazon for the lower end (still 1350/1500VA though!) UPSes contain words like "smoke" and "fire". My own experience with UPSes didn't involve smoke or fires, but it did involve remote equipment going offline for months until I had time to make a trip out to replace the UPS with a surge protector.
- gnuser 3y ago
  Sine-Wave UPSs are the only thing I allow in my DCs for a reason! (don’t forget the generators either!!!)
justinclift 3y ago
As a side note with UPS's, it can somewhat informative to look at the pricing for their replacement batteries. At least here in Australia, replacement batteries for some of the common UPS's (for desktop usage) cost nearly as much as the UPS itself.
- alright2565 3y ago
  From my own adventure in this area, the battery is very standard and IMO reasonably priced. What gets expensive is shipping it, since lead is so heavy. I remember having trouble finding local sellers for them that would have avoided the shipping cost.
  - twisteriffic 3y ago
    I've found home security companies to be a good source, either of the batteries themselves or at least a local supplier who can get what you need.
- TMWNN 3y ago
  Also consider how the size of the UPS affects the battery replacement cost. I purchased my most recent UPS, refurbished by CyberPower, from its eBay store <https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ssn=cyberpower https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ssn=cyberpower>. For a few dollars more I could have bought a larger size, but * I didn't need more capacity (the one I bought will power the server it serves for an hour, far more time than I need or want) and, more to the point, * The larger-size model has two batteries to replace, significantly increasing the cost.
  - Libcat99 3y ago
    I wish the battery layout/ amp hours was more obvious in UPS sales listings. The watts/VA are always front and center, but generally I want to know runtime which is harder to find and compare.
- Johnny555 3y ago
  I never buy APC replacement batteries - third party batteries are much cheaper, and seem to work just as well based on testing by the UPS itself.
jonathantf2 3y ago
I own two Back-UPS 1400VA units, one monitored with apcupsd and the other with a MikroTik router - so I guess it's just the newer units that have this issue?
1970-01-01 3y ago
>I then asked about this on the apcupsd mailing list. The first response: “Something’s wrong with your..." "Returning to my thread on the apcupsd mailing list, I asked again if there was actually anyone out there who had one of these working with non-Windows." Linux's reputation in a nutshell. It just works after you spend days checking if you have a bad device and another on the mailing list. And then you are forced to find a working alternative.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  Hardware validation is time consuming, boring, and expensive. Not surprising that given a mostly volunteer effort... it just doesn't happen. Or vendors self-certify their own gear.
  - thayne 3y ago
    It's not like Microsoft or Apple do that either. But Vendors are more thorough with testing on those OSes.
    - mynameisvlad 3y ago
      Uhhh… what? Both Apple and Microsoft have hardware certification programs which require review. https://mfi.apple.com/ https://mfi.apple.com/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/compatibility/whcp-certification-process https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/co...
      - thayne 3y ago
        As far as I know, the actual testing is done by the vendor. It might get reviewed by an MS or Apple imployee, but that isn't the same thing as actively testing the hardware themselves. Or providing software to work with third party hardware. It's a chicken and egg problem. Hardware vendors don't worry about linux compatibility, at least for consumer/desktop products because the market share is low. But one reason lack of good hardware support hinders adoption of linux on desktop.
kayodelycaon 3y ago
I have what was the cheapest APC UPS years ago and the macOS software works fine. Doesn’t help anyone running Linux though. :/
- e40 3y ago
  I have an APC on macOS, too, and as of a couple of OS iterations ago it recognizes it natively. I used to run apcupsd on macOS, but it was quite tricky to keep it working, due to the USB interface. This was on an older Mac than I'm using now (the trashcan Mac Pro), but it mostly worked and I would always have an indication when it stopped working as the icon in the menubar would change. I think the usual issue was so lock file was owned by root and couldn't be deleted.
dooglius 3y ago
If the vendor gives a proprietary Windows application for monitoring then... of course? What did you expect?
- criddell 3y ago
  There's a USB standard for HID power devices. I would expect basic functionality from any UPS with a USB port.
mrlonglong 3y ago
I have one of these APC Back-UPS 900 (BR900GI) here, and they work perfectly. Fully supported under apcupsd, that device has saved my bacon quite a few times. The only thing is that you MUST use the USB cable they provide.
- throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
  Doesn't that kind of prove they're messed up, if no other USB cable works?
  - rincebrain 3y ago
    APC doing horrible things with "standard" cables isn't new, though - they used a nonstandard null modem serial cable back in the day, such that if you tried to connect to the UPS using a standard null modem cable, it'd trigger shutting off the UPS. This isn't to say it's good, just that it's not new.
    - extraduder_ire 3y ago
      Mine has a usb-A to rj45 cable with a ferrite bead on it, as far as I can tell it just wires the four USB wires (no ground) to the pins with spaces in between. I have never understood why they do this. It works perfectly with apcupsd though, even showing up in my desktop power settings as a UPS.
      - mrlonglong 3y ago
        This, 100%.
      - mynameisvlad 3y ago
        They might be repurposing the same chassis for both USB and Ethernet-based UPSes.
        yanellena 3y ago
spintin 3y ago
It's better to just build your own with a 12v charger, a few 12v lead acid deep discharge batteries in parallel and a 9-18v -> 12v aligner. If you live in EU go with 110-220v charger so your setup can outlive a brownout.
- alright2565 3y ago
  How do you power a PC off this setup? Mine has a C14 inlet.
  - spintin 3y ago
    Inverters have losses (~10%), you need 12v devices for this to work. PicoPSU is the way I solve this.
shrubble 3y ago
Just a warning: there are differences in the output from UPSes with the cheaper ones' output not working well with higher efficiency power supplies. Better UPSes will output less 'jagged' AC.
- krunck 3y ago
  Yeah, I ran into this once. You want to find ones that state they have true sine wave output.
- folmar 3y ago
  If you do you shopping around getting clear sine output does not increase the price usually, or maybe a few percent.
BlueTemplar 3y ago
Is it me or going cheap on anything power-related seems like a terrible idea ?
- Borg3 3y ago
  Yeah, it is. I own two good old APC SmartUPS 1000 (one for desktop and second for server). They are absolutly reliable, quiet and output Sine when on battery. Good old reliable tech, easly monitored using apcupsd for example.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
aaronmdjones 3y ago
I have my APC Back-UPS CS650 (BK650EI) plugged into my router (running OpenWrt) which works fine with Network-UPS Tools. The router shares the UPS status with the whole LAN, and the machines on the LAN that are powered by the UPS will shut down automatically when the UPS battery goes critical.
zzzeek 3y ago
I had some battery issues with my previous BackUPS 750 but once I got a new battery, things were fine with apcupsd. Have been on a BackUPS-Pro 1500 S for a couple of years now also using apcupsd and zero problems. it legitimately records a low power event when my Brother printer first starts up, switches to battery then comes right back. Similar happens when it's stormy here and power lines are going down and being re-routed.
simpaticoder 3y ago
Can anyone recommend a good modern UPS? It seems like Lithium Ion would have the best power density, but perhaps lead-acid is actually better for this application? Good surge protection would also be great. It would be nice if there existed a UPS brand that is like Anker for USB cables and power adapters or Brother for printers.
- mplewis 3y ago
  I have had good luck with my refurbished APC BR line from ExcessUPS.
- slashink 3y ago
  The Cyberpower series sold at Costco is unironically good. No frills or cool stuff, UI from 1995 but supports USB monitoring out of the box and just… works. I was about to make the brother comparison but after reading your entire comment realize you already did it.
  - Springtime 3y ago
    Just FYI, Cyberpower, at least for their consumer line, use problematic yellow glue[1] which becomes brittle over time and can become conductive, causing arcing/fire hazards[2][3]. There was also a prior HN discussion about it[4], with some similar experiences. It can be removed[5], with some effort, though. Given its use in various electronics it wouldn't surprise me if some other UPSes use it, though have only seen discussions about Cyberpower. [1] https://sound-au.com/articles/yellow-glue.htm https://sound-au.com/articles/yellow-glue.htm [2] This thread had various videos from users showing the arcing on Cyberpower units: https://web.archive.org/web/20220715134034/https://old.reddit.com/r/homelab/comments/voy9kl/cyberpower_cp1500pfclcd_fire_hazard/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220715134034/https://old.reddi... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gqBzLNMFe4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gqBzLNMFe4 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31954938 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31954938 [5] https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/how-to-remove-the-dreaded-yellow-glue-of-death/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/how-to-remove-the-dr...
- bongodongobob 3y ago
SadWebDeveloper 3y ago
I have a BR700G it works flawlessly with apcupsd, minimal to no configuration... the cheap units of APC is for really really desperate consumers, the battery didn't last more than a year from my experience like the BR* ones that usually last 3 years, these lines is the better of the both worlds cheap and sophisticated enough to work "smart" but as expensive as the SMT/SMC units. Also like everyone say... remember to look for pure sine wave output if you are going to "protect" servers, for network equipment you could use the pwm based ones.
rpcope1 3y ago
Eaton makes much better UPSes at a close price point. I don't know why anyone buys APC or things like Cyberpower anymore.
- dhd415 3y ago
  This. I finally switched from using various APC models to an Eaton 5S 1500 unit for my desktop and a couple peripherals and it's much better while still being comparably priced.
- topspin 3y ago
  > Eaton makes much better UPSes What makes Eaton products better? Sincerely want to know anything you can tell me.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  I bought one because that's what I could get at Best Buy. This was particularly important because being able because being able to purchase it at a known physical store near me meant I could get it the same day from a relatively trusted vendor, be acceptably confident that I wasn't getting a counterfeit, and that there was hopefully at least some minimum level of quality (read: it probably isn't going to burn down my house).
  - macintux 3y ago
    I just looked at Eaton's website. They recommended two companies near me that carry their products: one doesn't have a website (it's not a retail address, maybe just some random person's home), the other's website has lorem ipsum text on their Eaton partnership page, and their shopping site has no Eaton products at all. So, yeah, it's understandable why people might not be buying Eaton.
- BenjiWiebe 3y ago
  Sorry, don't have the model numbers handy, but: We have an Eaton and several APCs, all fairly cheap/lowend. One recent power outage, the APCs flipped on but the Eaton just turned off...
rcarmo 3y ago
I have a 550ES, works fine. Some models will require apcd instead of nut, but I have configs for using Proxmox with both here: https://github.com/rcarmo/ground-init/tree/main/samples https://github.com/rcarmo/ground-init/tree/main/samples
throw0101c 3y ago
Note that APC has different lines (at various price points): * Back-UPS: stand-by, Stepped approximation to a sinewave * Back-UPS Pro: line interactive, Stepped approximation to a sinewave * Smart-UPS: line interactive, Sine wave * Smart-UPS Online: double-conversion online, Sine wave
teddyh 3y ago
I wonder what happened to Eric Raymond’s UPSide project¹. 1. <https://gitlab.com/esr/upside https://gitlab.com/esr/upside>
- g1sm 3y ago
  Some discussions here [0] some months ago. Seems they are stuck in the design phase. I had high hopes regarding this project. Shame nothing came out of it. [0] https://gitlab.com/esr/upside/-/issues/67 https://gitlab.com/esr/upside/-/issues/67
liberix 3y ago
I've been monitoring several dozen APC Back-UPS units for more than 10 years using apcupsd on Debian without any issues. There were only a few times (maybe 2 or 3 in all that time) when I saw some messages indicating that something was wrong with the battery (though they never were as frequent as in the author's case). In each of those cases, the messages went away after replacing the battery.
mmphosis 3y ago
We get a lot of power failures. I use laptops, but for other non-battery powered equipment, I have a BN1500M2-CA with a raspberry pi running debian plugged into one of the USB charging ports and the USB Data Port cable connected from the UPS to the raspberry pi. It keeps my ISP's 185 watt router going for longer than the ISP's switches will stay up when the power is out. I get more than 3 hours with the router and a 4K monitor plugged into the UPS. I remember seeing NUL characters in the text of an old log, but otherwise apcupsd works well: 2024-01-30 08:15:13 -0800 Power failure. 2024-01-30 08:15:19 -0800 Running on UPS batteries. 2024-01-30 08:20:06 -0800 Mains returned. No longer on UPS batteries. 2024-01-30 08:20:06 -0800 Power is back. UPS running on mains. 2024-02-04 12:52:58 -0800 Power failure. 2024-02-04 12:53:04 -0800 Running on UPS batteries. 2024-02-04 12:54:04 -0800 Mains returned. No longer on UPS batteries. 2024-02-04 12:54:04 -0800 Power is back. UPS running on mains. 2024-02-18 12:10:13 -0800 UPS Self Test switch to battery. 2024-02-18 12:10:21 -0800 UPS Self Test completed: Battery OK
- xp84 3y ago
  > ISP’s 185 watt router Wait, what? Does it also heat your room? How can it be so power-hungry?
  - mmphosis 3y ago
    I call it "the chimney."
  - p1mrx 3y ago
    A Starlink terminal uses less than 185W, and that talks to space while melting snow.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - bongodongobob 3y ago
    I'd bet the power supply is just rated at 185W. No fucking way is a router actually drawing that much power.
tristor 3y ago
I would never buy a cheap UPS. The one time I did so many years ago, it ended up catching fire. UPS fires are the most common cause of datacenter fires, and that's the "good" stuff. Adding a UPS is not a zero-risk action that has only upsides. You need to actually think about it. At home, I have had a single rack w/ network and server gear for more than a decade and I always run two good quality UPS, that I run a test on annually, tied to two different circuits. My setup now is a bit annoying because I'm renting currently, but when I owned a home prior to my recent move I had an electrician run two 20A Dual Function (AFCI+GFCI) circuits with hospital grade outlets to power the two UPSes in the same room but on separate circuits and breakers at the panel. I don't think that's overkill, but I think anything more would be overkill at home. When I buy a house again, I intend to do the same. Since buying better quality UPS and testing them regularly so I can replace batteries when needed I haven't had any fires, but using batteries past their useful lifespan can greatly increase risk of fire. Expect that you should replace the batteries every 3-5 years, and that they will cost nearly as much as the UPS itself. If you're not comfortable with that, invest in a quality surge protector instead and figure out how to deal with failures. UPS batteries are a big fire risk, so you need to understand it and work to contain it. Also, keep a good dry fire extinguisher near your rackmount equipment and get it tested annually.
- turtlebits 3y ago
  Can't you buy a UPS with a LiFePO battery, or find an old lead acid one and do a battery swap?
  - cptskippy 3y ago
    UPSes with dead lead acid batteries are a dime a dozen. People don't realize or don't both servicing the batteries and toss them out all the time.
    - russdill 3y ago
      I love hooking up large lead acid batteries to old UPSes, there's no reason to be limited by the original battery capacity. However...I discovered why some APC UPSes are sealed and the battery cannot be accessed. I was converting one such UPS which had no monitor interface. Having already opened it up to splice in an external battery, I noticed an empty header for a serial port. Cool. Plugged that into my PC and flash/bang/smoke. Fortunately my PC had a good path to ground and was not damaged. But the UPS had some pretty large burn marks at various points in the PCB and was certainly dead. It took me a bit to figure out what I did wrong. The reason it went bang is directly related to why there's no user access to the battery, and why there's no external monitoring port. They went cheap on the electronics and did not include an isolation transformer. Any points within the UPS which are "ground", including the battery negative terminal, are actually referenced to the full bridge rectifier, which provides a direct path to live. Ahh...I'm just very glad I didn't touch any of the battery terminals while I had the thing plugged in.
hedora 3y ago
I have one of the nicer APC units (for use in offices, not racks). Recently, when the power blipped, it went into backup mode and got stuck there, draining the battery. I had to physically unplug it and plug it back in to get it to turn back on. I'm not sure if there's a decent UPS brand any more. I get the impression APC has been going downhill since the acquisition.
- newsclues 3y ago
  Eaton
  - da768 3y ago
    Vertiv Liebert
  - js2 3y ago
    No one on this site has a large enough sample size to speak authoritatively about the quality of consumer-oriented UPSes. In my home right now, I have an APC (Schneider) Back-UPS Pro 1000, Tripp Lite (Eaton) AVR550U, and CyberPower CP1500PFCLCDa. I purchased the APC in April 2017, the CyberPower in Nov 2020, and the Tripp Lite in Sep 2021. The APC was originally for all my IT gear but for some reason that load caused it to cycle to battery at random times. I replaced it with the CyberPower which works fine with my IT gear. Meanwhile the APC works fine with my AV gear where I re-purposed it. Both of those are still on their original batteries which I test every 6 months. The Tripp Lite I use at my desk and I also test it every 6 months, but last month the power went out and the Tripp Lite immediately shut down. The battery had failed w/o warning and the Tripp Lite battery-monitoring is apparently useless since it still thought the battery was good when power was restored, but an actual load test proved otherwise. When I replaced the battery, the Tripp Lite had a cheap Chinese battery in it. I replaced it with a Duracell (manufactured in Vietnam). I've had less trouble with non-Chinese UPS batteries. Another fun thing: Tripp Lite has reused the model "AVR550U" for three different UPSes all which use a different battery. Turns out my version uses the quite common APC RBC2 sized 7Ah battery. Which is all to say: I've had a lot of UPSes over the years and you can't make any claims about any single manufacturer. They all manufacture a range of models and none of us have any actual data about failure rates. The best you can do if you have the expertise is to take one apart and evaluate its design and manufacturing quality.
johnklos 3y ago
First, it's extra work, but it's possible to configure apcupsd to run a script on events, then use that script to ignore spurious events. Second, for people who can't necessarily afford either new UPSes or something other than "consumer grade", a good option is to find local sellers, perhaps on Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace, who are selling or giving away old UPSes. Many people and businesses don't bother replacing batteries, so they just buy new devices when the batteries near or reach end of life, and since they're heavy, they often just want to give the hardware away. New batteries are not expensive. A common 9AH battery for many / most common smaller UPSes costs around $25 USD from Amazon sellers that have 4.5 or more stars. I've personally never bought a new UPS for myself, yet all of my equipment and everywhere I've set up home Internet equipment for others has UPSes. I've only ever bought batteries. Just a thought.
underlogic 3y ago
I have had maybe 10 UPS units over the years but I would never buy another one. I was once severely poisoned by an APC unit with a leaking battery. It released an odorless vapor, had me in the hospital twice before I figured it out. Not a fan of APC quality anymore either. I don't trust the product, don't want to plug it into my equipment. Most everything I use now has a battery or will just reset on power failure anyway. The model he is referring to is the last UPS I owned and had some very serious QA issues; https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/apc-ups-now-with-aluminum-wire/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/apc-ups-now-w...
- atesti 3y ago
  What was this odorless substance and where did it come from? (just curious what to watch out for)
  - underlogic 3y ago
    It came from a leak in the battery during charging. Exactly what the gas was is still unknown but it knocked me for six a couple of days after I received the unit. I thought about getting it tested and even suing but it took out my whole apartment and I just had to get rid of it and cut my losses. I was in the ER unable to stand and in quite a state, lost balance and coordination and was incoherent for a while. CAT scan w/contrast, it was a whole production on Thanksgiving at 3am. They monitored me for a couple days and sent me back to the apartment where all the symptoms immediately returned, and then I put it together and looked closer at the UPS. Underneath it was a couple of drops of black liquid that had come from the battery compartment and after returning to the ER again to go throw up some more I went back and took it straight to the garbage. I think it was one of those types of gas that can effect you in the PPM range. Totally odorless. This was the enterprise APC UPS, the model was SUA1500
    - zettabomb 3y ago
      The SUA1500 is a pretty reliable unit and I highly doubt that's the issue. If there was a problem with the battery, those were poor quality batteries, but nothing to do with the UPS and not a reason to avoid them if you have a good use. I've also never heard of such a gas being produced that was odorless, do you know this is what happened for sure or are you just speculating?
rubatuga 3y ago
Seems like your best bet is to use an industrial battery inverter/charger system (Victron Multiplus) for slow-switching (>20ms) and then layer a secondary industrial grade UPS to provide fast switching (<15ms) and shutdown process through USB/serial/network etc. Is it cheap? No, but you shouldn't be using cheap power supplies to protect your more expensive server equipment.
shmerl 3y ago
I have no issues with Back-UPS RS 1500MS2 on Linux. I had to configure an udev rule though for it to set up a static USB device name since that wasn't happening out of the box, but other than that - no problems. See http://apcupsd.org/manual/manual.html#usb-configuration http://apcupsd.org/manual/manual.html#usb-configuration
ek750 3y ago
I'm kinda sick of buying these cheap lead-acid based UPS units (only tried APC and Cyberpower so far) to have the batteries die in just a couple of years. Are the lithium-based batteries more durable (probably more dangerous)? Anyone have experience with these? https://www.amazon.com/Xtreme-Power-Conversion-J60-600-Lithium/dp/B0897WWDG2 https://www.amazon.com/Xtreme-Power-Conversion-J60-600-Lithi...
alright2565 3y ago
What's interesting is that APS's Windows-only software, Powerchute Serial Shutdown, is actually Java-based, accessed through the browser, and trivially de-compilable and readable.
secabeen 3y ago
In my experience, all modern operating systems and widely-used databases handle power interruption well. I can't recall an time where a filesystem or database was corrupted by power loss in decades. Adding a monitoring/shutdown system for basic UPSes is not worth the risk/hassle. I'd just monitor the power directly and let the system fall over when the UPS runs out of battery.
- nayuki 3y ago
  Some SSDs brick themselves in an abrupt shutdown.
  - secabeen 3y ago
    Do you know which ones, so I can avoid them?
    - nayuki 3y ago
      https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/fast13/fast13-final80.pdf https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/fast13/fast13... "Understanding the Robustness of SSDs under Power Fault" [2013] > Even worse, two of the fifteen devices became massively corrupted, with one no longer registering on the SAS bus at all after 136 fault cycles, and another suffering one third of its blocks becoming inaccessible after merely 8 fault cycles
1letterunixname 3y ago
Don't even bother buying used enterprise APC units because firmware updates now require $$$. NMC2 and NMC3 can't even install proper SSL certs without some shitty Windows-only tool.
neilv 3y ago
After many UPSes at home over the years, I currently have only 1 (a business-grade rackmount Cyberpower), and once it needs a new battery pack, I'll probably just switch to a surge protector. My local electric is pretty stable, I no longer run servers at home that need to be up 24/7, most of my work at home is on a laptop with integrated battery backup, I can use my phone WiFI AP mode for backup Internet, UPSes are a pain to move between apartments, and UPSes have a small risk of dangerous battery leakage.
mastax 3y ago
I'm having exactly the same issue with apcupsd and my APC Smart-UPS X 1500, so it's not just an issue with the cheapo units.
binkHN 3y ago
I refused to go down this route; the hours lost in frustration are not worth it. I purchased a UPS that supports a network management card, basically an overpriced SNMP daemon with an Ethernet interface, and have been happy ever since, since every system can query the status of the UPS.
Animats 3y ago
Have low-end UPS units gone lithium iron phosphate yet? That's the battery technology of choice now for non-portable applications. Cheaper and longer-lived than lithium-ion, no thermal runaway risk, about the same energy density per cubic meter, but twice the weight. Such UPSs are available in small rackmount units.[1] The usual serious players, such as Tripp-Lite, have LiFeP04 battery powered units. Searching for consumer-grade LiFePo4 UPSs turns up many articles on how to replace crappy batteries in UPS units with newer battery technology. The batteries themselves are cheap now. APC doesn't seem to have caught up yet. This looks like an APC corporate problem. [1] https://www.falconups.com/ups/lifepo4-ups-sl.htm https://www.falconups.com/ups/lifepo4-ups-sl.htm
- paulmd 3y ago
  > Have low-end UPS units gone lithium iron phosphate yet? no, and afaik it's a cost thing. the unit you link is "request for quote" and being a rackmount unit it's probably not what consumers would think of as inexpensive. I have three of the classic fire-hazard cyberpower 1500PFCLCD and each of them has a pair of small sealed lead-acid (SLA) batteries that cost maybe $30-40 each to replace. If you assume that the OEM gets them for $20 apiece, how much LiFePO4 battery does that buy? I know the big industrial cells are cheaper than what you can get as small individual cells, but I'm positive it's still going to be 4-10x more expensive. now remember that's a unit that retails for $135-150, and there are like 3-4 tiers of units below that... how much LiFePO4 can you buy for $10 to put into that $50 UPS? (fake edit I looked one of them up from the datasheet and it's $700 for the lowest-tier 1000VA unit lol)
  - oceanplexian 3y ago
    It’s not only a cost thing, they don’t have the power output for the same form factor. You can technically swap in those 12v LiFePo4 “replacements” into a cheap UPS but they don’t put out nearly as many peak amps as good old SLAs. Lithium Ion and Polymer can but they also run the risk of blowing up. I’ve played with basically all these chemistries doing model airplanes and DIY drones.
    - 3y ago
neilv 3y ago
For most home use, you don't need UPS monitoring. If you're home when it switches to battery power, the equipment will probably have been protected from any surge, and you'll hear the beeps from the UPS, and can manually shut down equipment. If you're not home, and the power doesn't come on soon enough, power will be cut to protected equipment, without a surge, and at most the equipment probably only needs the auto-`fsck`. And because no monitor means that you can have the UPS airgapped for data, there's less theoretical risk of a remote firmware hack causing a fire/explosion or toxic leak.
- zettabomb 3y ago
  The point is for when you're not home, it can automatically shut down your PC. It's actually quite useful if you happen to have a home lab. The nicer units can monitor temperature and humidity and send you an email if they exceed specified limits, which can be VERY useful if you live in a flood prone area, for example.
  - neilv 3y ago
    I'm sure it's useful for some, but not most. I have a homelab of a few servers, with a nice rackmount UPS, and I decided data connection to the UPS is more risk than good, in my case. Environmental monitoring doesn't have to be part of the UPS. And APC has long made separate devices for that, for data centers/racks. In addition to the modern IoT home devices.
    - zettabomb 3y ago
      Oh sure, I'm just thinking in the realm of HN... perhaps it's more common than average! But having a networked UPS is non-negotiable for me, as far as I'm concerned it's no use if the servers power off hard anyways. It's on a VLAN without internet access so really not much risk either.
persnickety 3y ago
Are there any UPS that output ATX directly? I'm not seeing much of a point powering a small server from battery with AC if it all gets converted to DC anyway. Laptops got it right.
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  Only another 4 years till Google's patent on using a laptop configuration in a server expires! https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/02/15/google-files-patent-on-ups-architecture https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/02/15/goog... I doubt this one in any of the patent pools (OIN) but maybe they wouldn't sue anyhow?
  - persnickety 3y ago
    I'm feeling a mix of outrage, disbelief, and "what was I expecting" right now.
bl_valance 3y ago
I use one for my Synology UPS with no issues, has saved it multiple times and is able to gracefully shutdown when switched to battery for x-minutes.
TowerTall 3y ago
My biggest grief with the APC UPS are that they initiate the shutdown process immediately in case of power loss. I live in a location where we frequent has 10 - 60 seconds power cuts. The optimal solution would be if the UPS waited like 5 minutes before starting to shutdown the connected PC. For this reason alone I stopped connecting my desktop pc to UPS and stopped installing the UPS powershute software. I wrote their support and asked if i could daisy chain a battery with the UPS so the battery would be used first and when that battery was depleted the UPS would take over and start the shutdown process. They advices me against this and pointed me to this FAQ. It doesn't directly adressing daisy chaining a UPS with a battery. Anyone here that has experience with doing that? https://www.apc.com/us/en/faqs/FA157424/ https://www.apc.com/us/en/faqs/FA157424/
dantastic 3y ago
I had this problem with a Cyberpower VP1500EILCD. I created this udev rule to stop the USB auto suspend feature and it's been rock solid since: SUBSYSTEM=="usb", ATTR{idVendor}=="0764", ATTR{idProduct}=="0501", GROUP="nut", ATTR{power/autosuspend}="-1"
Udo 3y ago
The thing I keep re-reading is > popped the breaker for the sockets causing everything to be harshly powered off. My fileserver took it badly and one drive died. Maybe someone with more hardware knowledge could chime in, but my default assumption would be that the hard drive died either because it couldn't take another power-off/on cycle, or because the event that caused the circuit breaker to pop was harsh enough to damage it (not sure how much the computer's power supply insulates components from things like that, but intuitively, there are much more voltage-sensitive components in PCs than hard drives). While a UPS might have been effective against a surge, it would not have saved the drive from dying by power cycling. My hypothesis is that most equipment doesn't need to be notified when on UPS, it could in fact be harmful when it causes a power cycle that turns out to be unnecessary. An orderly shutdown doesn't matter that much unless you're dealing with an app that can become internally inconsistent, such as a database. In all other scenarios, the journaling FS takes care of data integrity. So, especially for home use, why not just let the UPS run until it's out?
sebazzz 3y ago
I have a BX750MI and this one still works. Still, it is good to have the warning.

191 points by trelane 3y ago

I once installed apcupsd only to be so appalled by its lack of security design I ripped it out PDQ. It demands to run as root so it can run shutdown (and maybe access the USB?!) and goes downhill from there.

nottorp 3y ago
Well, you want it to run shutdown don't you? Afraid your ups will hack you?
- NelsonMinar 3y ago
  There's many safer ways to let a mostly untrusted process run shutdown. Like a sudo setup letting the UPS user only run shutdown. Or /etc/shutdown.allow. Or something using CAP_SYS_BOOT. systemd might have a solution too. I get the impression I just spent more time thinking about this writing my response to you than the APC folks ever did. Yes, I am afraid my UPS will hack me. More specifically I'm afraid this badly written closed source software will have some security hole that can be used to escalate to root.
  - nottorp 3y ago
    > this badly written closed source software We are talking about apcupsd right? http://apcupsd.org http://apcupsd.org Were you under the impression it's official software done by APC?

ethbr1 3y ago

>> TL;DR: Despite otherwise seeming to work correctly, I can’t monitor a Back-UPS BX1600MI in Linux without seeing a constant stream of spurious battery detach/reattach and power fail/restore events that last less than 2 seconds each. It sounds like the Windows software probably debounces the incoming events, only bubbling up those that are sufficiently time-stable, to account for bargain sensor false positives? Edit: Looks like the apcupsd collection also has some EEPROM programming utilities... (for supported devices) http://www.apcupsd.org/manual/#configuration-directives-used-to-set-the-ups-eeprom http://www.apcupsd.org/manual/#configuration-directives-used...

bell-cot 3y ago
I'd bet you're right. Experience at $Job is that certain cheapo UPS's can be miserably twitchy about detecting power problems and switching to their inverters. After a week of the clickity-clicks of the cut-over relays - $Employee and his office mates may ask for the UPS to be removed.
bulk88 3y ago
Right, the window tool debounces the events, IMO the battery attach/disconnnect messages are a poor mans heartbeat signal on the protocol. That ACPI/Windows didn't "sleep" the USB port, or that the controller in the UPS (chinese junk) didn't crash.

bell-cot 3y ago

> Our power grid is very reliable. Looking at availability information from “uptimed“, my home file server has been powered on for 99.97% of the time in the last 14 years. That includes time spent moving house and a day when the house power was off for several hours while the kitchen was refitted! > However, in December 2023 a fault with our electric oven popped the breaker for the sockets causing everything to be harshly powered off. My fileserver took it badly and one drive died. That wasn’t a huge issue as it has a redundant filesystem, but I didn’t like it. > I decided I could afford to treat myself to a relatively cheap UPS. Just from that, I'd say he for-sure should have avoided UPS's, and gotten a "real" surge protector. The "shockwave" from that high-amperage short is far more likely to have done the damage than the mere loss of power. And the output of cheap UPS's is often far worse than the input. [Edit: And good surge protection is never a feature of cheap UPS's.]

jeffbee 3y ago
The quoted material sounds like a poor analysis. It doesn't take into account all the times the UPS would have failed while the grid was fine. UPSs are not pure goods with no downsides that merely add to availability. Commercial UPS are very unreliable, bordering on a scam.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  It also doesn't account for the fire risk — a cheap UPS is much more likely to catch fire than a PC / NAS.
  - WWLink 3y ago
    Yea, a disturbing amount of reviews on amazon for the lower end (still 1350/1500VA though!) UPSes contain words like "smoke" and "fire". My own experience with UPSes didn't involve smoke or fires, but it did involve remote equipment going offline for months until I had time to make a trip out to replace the UPS with a surge protector.
gnuser 3y ago
Sine-Wave UPSs are the only thing I allow in my DCs for a reason! (don’t forget the generators either!!!)

justinclift 3y ago

As a side note with UPS's, it can somewhat informative to look at the pricing for their replacement batteries. At least here in Australia, replacement batteries for some of the common UPS's (for desktop usage) cost nearly as much as the UPS itself.

alright2565 3y ago
From my own adventure in this area, the battery is very standard and IMO reasonably priced. What gets expensive is shipping it, since lead is so heavy. I remember having trouble finding local sellers for them that would have avoided the shipping cost.
- twisteriffic 3y ago
  I've found home security companies to be a good source, either of the batteries themselves or at least a local supplier who can get what you need.
TMWNN 3y ago
Also consider how the size of the UPS affects the battery replacement cost. I purchased my most recent UPS, refurbished by CyberPower, from its eBay store <https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ssn=cyberpower https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ssn=cyberpower>. For a few dollars more I could have bought a larger size, but * I didn't need more capacity (the one I bought will power the server it serves for an hour, far more time than I need or want) and, more to the point, * The larger-size model has two batteries to replace, significantly increasing the cost.
- Libcat99 3y ago
  I wish the battery layout/ amp hours was more obvious in UPS sales listings. The watts/VA are always front and center, but generally I want to know runtime which is harder to find and compare.
Johnny555 3y ago
I never buy APC replacement batteries - third party batteries are much cheaper, and seem to work just as well based on testing by the UPS itself.

jonathantf2 3y ago

I own two Back-UPS 1400VA units, one monitored with apcupsd and the other with a MikroTik router - so I guess it's just the newer units that have this issue?

1970-01-01 3y ago

>I then asked about this on the apcupsd mailing list. The first response: “Something’s wrong with your..." "Returning to my thread on the apcupsd mailing list, I asked again if there was actually anyone out there who had one of these working with non-Windows." Linux's reputation in a nutshell. It just works after you spend days checking if you have a bad device and another on the mailing list. And then you are forced to find a working alternative.

ethbr1 3y ago
Hardware validation is time consuming, boring, and expensive. Not surprising that given a mostly volunteer effort... it just doesn't happen. Or vendors self-certify their own gear.
- thayne 3y ago
  It's not like Microsoft or Apple do that either. But Vendors are more thorough with testing on those OSes.
  - mynameisvlad 3y ago
    Uhhh… what? Both Apple and Microsoft have hardware certification programs which require review. https://mfi.apple.com/ https://mfi.apple.com/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/compatibility/whcp-certification-process https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/co...
    - thayne 3y ago
      As far as I know, the actual testing is done by the vendor. It might get reviewed by an MS or Apple imployee, but that isn't the same thing as actively testing the hardware themselves. Or providing software to work with third party hardware. It's a chicken and egg problem. Hardware vendors don't worry about linux compatibility, at least for consumer/desktop products because the market share is low. But one reason lack of good hardware support hinders adoption of linux on desktop.

kayodelycaon 3y ago

I have what was the cheapest APC UPS years ago and the macOS software works fine. Doesn’t help anyone running Linux though. :/

e40 3y ago
I have an APC on macOS, too, and as of a couple of OS iterations ago it recognizes it natively. I used to run apcupsd on macOS, but it was quite tricky to keep it working, due to the USB interface. This was on an older Mac than I'm using now (the trashcan Mac Pro), but it mostly worked and I would always have an indication when it stopped working as the icon in the menubar would change. I think the usual issue was so lock file was owned by root and couldn't be deleted.

dooglius 3y ago

If the vendor gives a proprietary Windows application for monitoring then... of course? What did you expect?

criddell 3y ago
There's a USB standard for HID power devices. I would expect basic functionality from any UPS with a USB port.

mrlonglong 3y ago

I have one of these APC Back-UPS 900 (BR900GI) here, and they work perfectly. Fully supported under apcupsd, that device has saved my bacon quite a few times. The only thing is that you MUST use the USB cable they provide.

throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
Doesn't that kind of prove they're messed up, if no other USB cable works?
- rincebrain 3y ago
  APC doing horrible things with "standard" cables isn't new, though - they used a nonstandard null modem serial cable back in the day, such that if you tried to connect to the UPS using a standard null modem cable, it'd trigger shutting off the UPS. This isn't to say it's good, just that it's not new.
  - extraduder_ire 3y ago
    Mine has a usb-A to rj45 cable with a ferrite bead on it, as far as I can tell it just wires the four USB wires (no ground) to the pins with spaces in between. I have never understood why they do this. It works perfectly with apcupsd though, even showing up in my desktop power settings as a UPS.
    - mrlonglong 3y ago
      This, 100%.
    - mynameisvlad 3y ago
      They might be repurposing the same chassis for both USB and Ethernet-based UPSes.
      - yanellena 3y ago

spintin 3y ago

It's better to just build your own with a 12v charger, a few 12v lead acid deep discharge batteries in parallel and a 9-18v -> 12v aligner. If you live in EU go with 110-220v charger so your setup can outlive a brownout.

alright2565 3y ago
How do you power a PC off this setup? Mine has a C14 inlet.
- spintin 3y ago
  Inverters have losses (~10%), you need 12v devices for this to work. PicoPSU is the way I solve this.

shrubble 3y ago

Just a warning: there are differences in the output from UPSes with the cheaper ones' output not working well with higher efficiency power supplies. Better UPSes will output less 'jagged' AC.

krunck 3y ago
Yeah, I ran into this once. You want to find ones that state they have true sine wave output.
folmar 3y ago
If you do you shopping around getting clear sine output does not increase the price usually, or maybe a few percent.

BlueTemplar 3y ago

Is it me or going cheap on anything power-related seems like a terrible idea ?

Borg3 3y ago
Yeah, it is. I own two good old APC SmartUPS 1000 (one for desktop and second for server). They are absolutly reliable, quiet and output Sine when on battery. Good old reliable tech, easly monitored using apcupsd for example.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

aaronmdjones 3y ago

I have my APC Back-UPS CS650 (BK650EI) plugged into my router (running OpenWrt) which works fine with Network-UPS Tools. The router shares the UPS status with the whole LAN, and the machines on the LAN that are powered by the UPS will shut down automatically when the UPS battery goes critical.

zzzeek 3y ago

I had some battery issues with my previous BackUPS 750 but once I got a new battery, things were fine with apcupsd. Have been on a BackUPS-Pro 1500 S for a couple of years now also using apcupsd and zero problems. it legitimately records a low power event when my Brother printer first starts up, switches to battery then comes right back. Similar happens when it's stormy here and power lines are going down and being re-routed.

simpaticoder 3y ago

Can anyone recommend a good modern UPS? It seems like Lithium Ion would have the best power density, but perhaps lead-acid is actually better for this application? Good surge protection would also be great. It would be nice if there existed a UPS brand that is like Anker for USB cables and power adapters or Brother for printers.

mplewis 3y ago
I have had good luck with my refurbished APC BR line from ExcessUPS.
slashink 3y ago
The Cyberpower series sold at Costco is unironically good. No frills or cool stuff, UI from 1995 but supports USB monitoring out of the box and just… works. I was about to make the brother comparison but after reading your entire comment realize you already did it.
- Springtime 3y ago
  Just FYI, Cyberpower, at least for their consumer line, use problematic yellow glue[1] which becomes brittle over time and can become conductive, causing arcing/fire hazards[2][3]. There was also a prior HN discussion about it[4], with some similar experiences. It can be removed[5], with some effort, though. Given its use in various electronics it wouldn't surprise me if some other UPSes use it, though have only seen discussions about Cyberpower. [1] https://sound-au.com/articles/yellow-glue.htm https://sound-au.com/articles/yellow-glue.htm [2] This thread had various videos from users showing the arcing on Cyberpower units: https://web.archive.org/web/20220715134034/https://old.reddit.com/r/homelab/comments/voy9kl/cyberpower_cp1500pfclcd_fire_hazard/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220715134034/https://old.reddi... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gqBzLNMFe4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gqBzLNMFe4 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31954938 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31954938 [5] https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/how-to-remove-the-dreaded-yellow-glue-of-death/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/how-to-remove-the-dr...
bongodongobob 3y ago

SadWebDeveloper 3y ago

I have a BR700G it works flawlessly with apcupsd, minimal to no configuration... the cheap units of APC is for really really desperate consumers, the battery didn't last more than a year from my experience like the BR* ones that usually last 3 years, these lines is the better of the both worlds cheap and sophisticated enough to work "smart" but as expensive as the SMT/SMC units. Also like everyone say... remember to look for pure sine wave output if you are going to "protect" servers, for network equipment you could use the pwm based ones.

rpcope1 3y ago

Eaton makes much better UPSes at a close price point. I don't know why anyone buys APC or things like Cyberpower anymore.

dhd415 3y ago
This. I finally switched from using various APC models to an Eaton 5S 1500 unit for my desktop and a couple peripherals and it's much better while still being comparably priced.
topspin 3y ago
> Eaton makes much better UPSes What makes Eaton products better? Sincerely want to know anything you can tell me.
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
I bought one because that's what I could get at Best Buy. This was particularly important because being able because being able to purchase it at a known physical store near me meant I could get it the same day from a relatively trusted vendor, be acceptably confident that I wasn't getting a counterfeit, and that there was hopefully at least some minimum level of quality (read: it probably isn't going to burn down my house).
- macintux 3y ago
  I just looked at Eaton's website. They recommended two companies near me that carry their products: one doesn't have a website (it's not a retail address, maybe just some random person's home), the other's website has lorem ipsum text on their Eaton partnership page, and their shopping site has no Eaton products at all. So, yeah, it's understandable why people might not be buying Eaton.
BenjiWiebe 3y ago
Sorry, don't have the model numbers handy, but: We have an Eaton and several APCs, all fairly cheap/lowend. One recent power outage, the APCs flipped on but the Eaton just turned off...

rcarmo 3y ago

I have a 550ES, works fine. Some models will require apcd instead of nut, but I have configs for using Proxmox with both here: https://github.com/rcarmo/ground-init/tree/main/samples https://github.com/rcarmo/ground-init/tree/main/samples

throw0101c 3y ago

Note that APC has different lines (at various price points): * Back-UPS: stand-by, Stepped approximation to a sinewave * Back-UPS Pro: line interactive, Stepped approximation to a sinewave * Smart-UPS: line interactive, Sine wave * Smart-UPS Online: double-conversion online, Sine wave

teddyh 3y ago

I wonder what happened to Eric Raymond’s UPSide project¹. 1. <https://gitlab.com/esr/upside https://gitlab.com/esr/upside>

g1sm 3y ago
Some discussions here [0] some months ago. Seems they are stuck in the design phase. I had high hopes regarding this project. Shame nothing came out of it. [0] https://gitlab.com/esr/upside/-/issues/67 https://gitlab.com/esr/upside/-/issues/67

liberix 3y ago

I've been monitoring several dozen APC Back-UPS units for more than 10 years using apcupsd on Debian without any issues. There were only a few times (maybe 2 or 3 in all that time) when I saw some messages indicating that something was wrong with the battery (though they never were as frequent as in the author's case). In each of those cases, the messages went away after replacing the battery.

mmphosis 3y ago

We get a lot of power failures. I use laptops, but for other non-battery powered equipment, I have a BN1500M2-CA with a raspberry pi running debian plugged into one of the USB charging ports and the USB Data Port cable connected from the UPS to the raspberry pi. It keeps my ISP's 185 watt router going for longer than the ISP's switches will stay up when the power is out. I get more than 3 hours with the router and a 4K monitor plugged into the UPS. I remember seeing NUL characters in the text of an old log, but otherwise apcupsd works well: 2024-01-30 08:15:13 -0800 Power failure. 2024-01-30 08:15:19 -0800 Running on UPS batteries. 2024-01-30 08:20:06 -0800 Mains returned. No longer on UPS batteries. 2024-01-30 08:20:06 -0800 Power is back. UPS running on mains. 2024-02-04 12:52:58 -0800 Power failure. 2024-02-04 12:53:04 -0800 Running on UPS batteries. 2024-02-04 12:54:04 -0800 Mains returned. No longer on UPS batteries. 2024-02-04 12:54:04 -0800 Power is back. UPS running on mains. 2024-02-18 12:10:13 -0800 UPS Self Test switch to battery. 2024-02-18 12:10:21 -0800 UPS Self Test completed: Battery OK

xp84 3y ago
> ISP’s 185 watt router Wait, what? Does it also heat your room? How can it be so power-hungry?
- mmphosis 3y ago
  I call it "the chimney."
- p1mrx 3y ago
  A Starlink terminal uses less than 185W, and that talks to space while melting snow.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- bongodongobob 3y ago
  I'd bet the power supply is just rated at 185W. No fucking way is a router actually drawing that much power.

tristor 3y ago

I would never buy a cheap UPS. The one time I did so many years ago, it ended up catching fire. UPS fires are the most common cause of datacenter fires, and that's the "good" stuff. Adding a UPS is not a zero-risk action that has only upsides. You need to actually think about it. At home, I have had a single rack w/ network and server gear for more than a decade and I always run two good quality UPS, that I run a test on annually, tied to two different circuits. My setup now is a bit annoying because I'm renting currently, but when I owned a home prior to my recent move I had an electrician run two 20A Dual Function (AFCI+GFCI) circuits with hospital grade outlets to power the two UPSes in the same room but on separate circuits and breakers at the panel. I don't think that's overkill, but I think anything more would be overkill at home. When I buy a house again, I intend to do the same. Since buying better quality UPS and testing them regularly so I can replace batteries when needed I haven't had any fires, but using batteries past their useful lifespan can greatly increase risk of fire. Expect that you should replace the batteries every 3-5 years, and that they will cost nearly as much as the UPS itself. If you're not comfortable with that, invest in a quality surge protector instead and figure out how to deal with failures. UPS batteries are a big fire risk, so you need to understand it and work to contain it. Also, keep a good dry fire extinguisher near your rackmount equipment and get it tested annually.

turtlebits 3y ago
Can't you buy a UPS with a LiFePO battery, or find an old lead acid one and do a battery swap?
- cptskippy 3y ago
  UPSes with dead lead acid batteries are a dime a dozen. People don't realize or don't both servicing the batteries and toss them out all the time.
  - russdill 3y ago
    I love hooking up large lead acid batteries to old UPSes, there's no reason to be limited by the original battery capacity. However...I discovered why some APC UPSes are sealed and the battery cannot be accessed. I was converting one such UPS which had no monitor interface. Having already opened it up to splice in an external battery, I noticed an empty header for a serial port. Cool. Plugged that into my PC and flash/bang/smoke. Fortunately my PC had a good path to ground and was not damaged. But the UPS had some pretty large burn marks at various points in the PCB and was certainly dead. It took me a bit to figure out what I did wrong. The reason it went bang is directly related to why there's no user access to the battery, and why there's no external monitoring port. They went cheap on the electronics and did not include an isolation transformer. Any points within the UPS which are "ground", including the battery negative terminal, are actually referenced to the full bridge rectifier, which provides a direct path to live. Ahh...I'm just very glad I didn't touch any of the battery terminals while I had the thing plugged in.

hedora 3y ago

I have one of the nicer APC units (for use in offices, not racks). Recently, when the power blipped, it went into backup mode and got stuck there, draining the battery. I had to physically unplug it and plug it back in to get it to turn back on. I'm not sure if there's a decent UPS brand any more. I get the impression APC has been going downhill since the acquisition.

newsclues 3y ago
Eaton
- da768 3y ago
  Vertiv Liebert
- js2 3y ago
  No one on this site has a large enough sample size to speak authoritatively about the quality of consumer-oriented UPSes. In my home right now, I have an APC (Schneider) Back-UPS Pro 1000, Tripp Lite (Eaton) AVR550U, and CyberPower CP1500PFCLCDa. I purchased the APC in April 2017, the CyberPower in Nov 2020, and the Tripp Lite in Sep 2021. The APC was originally for all my IT gear but for some reason that load caused it to cycle to battery at random times. I replaced it with the CyberPower which works fine with my IT gear. Meanwhile the APC works fine with my AV gear where I re-purposed it. Both of those are still on their original batteries which I test every 6 months. The Tripp Lite I use at my desk and I also test it every 6 months, but last month the power went out and the Tripp Lite immediately shut down. The battery had failed w/o warning and the Tripp Lite battery-monitoring is apparently useless since it still thought the battery was good when power was restored, but an actual load test proved otherwise. When I replaced the battery, the Tripp Lite had a cheap Chinese battery in it. I replaced it with a Duracell (manufactured in Vietnam). I've had less trouble with non-Chinese UPS batteries. Another fun thing: Tripp Lite has reused the model "AVR550U" for three different UPSes all which use a different battery. Turns out my version uses the quite common APC RBC2 sized 7Ah battery. Which is all to say: I've had a lot of UPSes over the years and you can't make any claims about any single manufacturer. They all manufacture a range of models and none of us have any actual data about failure rates. The best you can do if you have the expertise is to take one apart and evaluate its design and manufacturing quality.

johnklos 3y ago

First, it's extra work, but it's possible to configure apcupsd to run a script on events, then use that script to ignore spurious events. Second, for people who can't necessarily afford either new UPSes or something other than "consumer grade", a good option is to find local sellers, perhaps on Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace, who are selling or giving away old UPSes. Many people and businesses don't bother replacing batteries, so they just buy new devices when the batteries near or reach end of life, and since they're heavy, they often just want to give the hardware away. New batteries are not expensive. A common 9AH battery for many / most common smaller UPSes costs around $25 USD from Amazon sellers that have 4.5 or more stars. I've personally never bought a new UPS for myself, yet all of my equipment and everywhere I've set up home Internet equipment for others has UPSes. I've only ever bought batteries. Just a thought.

underlogic 3y ago

I have had maybe 10 UPS units over the years but I would never buy another one. I was once severely poisoned by an APC unit with a leaking battery. It released an odorless vapor, had me in the hospital twice before I figured it out. Not a fan of APC quality anymore either. I don't trust the product, don't want to plug it into my equipment. Most everything I use now has a battery or will just reset on power failure anyway. The model he is referring to is the last UPS I owned and had some very serious QA issues; https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/apc-ups-now-with-aluminum-wire/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/apc-ups-now-w...

atesti 3y ago
What was this odorless substance and where did it come from? (just curious what to watch out for)
- underlogic 3y ago
  It came from a leak in the battery during charging. Exactly what the gas was is still unknown but it knocked me for six a couple of days after I received the unit. I thought about getting it tested and even suing but it took out my whole apartment and I just had to get rid of it and cut my losses. I was in the ER unable to stand and in quite a state, lost balance and coordination and was incoherent for a while. CAT scan w/contrast, it was a whole production on Thanksgiving at 3am. They monitored me for a couple days and sent me back to the apartment where all the symptoms immediately returned, and then I put it together and looked closer at the UPS. Underneath it was a couple of drops of black liquid that had come from the battery compartment and after returning to the ER again to go throw up some more I went back and took it straight to the garbage. I think it was one of those types of gas that can effect you in the PPM range. Totally odorless. This was the enterprise APC UPS, the model was SUA1500
  - zettabomb 3y ago
    The SUA1500 is a pretty reliable unit and I highly doubt that's the issue. If there was a problem with the battery, those were poor quality batteries, but nothing to do with the UPS and not a reason to avoid them if you have a good use. I've also never heard of such a gas being produced that was odorless, do you know this is what happened for sure or are you just speculating?

rubatuga 3y ago

Seems like your best bet is to use an industrial battery inverter/charger system (Victron Multiplus) for slow-switching (>20ms) and then layer a secondary industrial grade UPS to provide fast switching (<15ms) and shutdown process through USB/serial/network etc. Is it cheap? No, but you shouldn't be using cheap power supplies to protect your more expensive server equipment.

shmerl 3y ago

I have no issues with Back-UPS RS 1500MS2 on Linux. I had to configure an udev rule though for it to set up a static USB device name since that wasn't happening out of the box, but other than that - no problems. See http://apcupsd.org/manual/manual.html#usb-configuration http://apcupsd.org/manual/manual.html#usb-configuration

ek750 3y ago

I'm kinda sick of buying these cheap lead-acid based UPS units (only tried APC and Cyberpower so far) to have the batteries die in just a couple of years. Are the lithium-based batteries more durable (probably more dangerous)? Anyone have experience with these? https://www.amazon.com/Xtreme-Power-Conversion-J60-600-Lithium/dp/B0897WWDG2 https://www.amazon.com/Xtreme-Power-Conversion-J60-600-Lithi...

alright2565 3y ago

What's interesting is that APS's Windows-only software, Powerchute Serial Shutdown, is actually Java-based, accessed through the browser, and trivially de-compilable and readable.

secabeen 3y ago

In my experience, all modern operating systems and widely-used databases handle power interruption well. I can't recall an time where a filesystem or database was corrupted by power loss in decades. Adding a monitoring/shutdown system for basic UPSes is not worth the risk/hassle. I'd just monitor the power directly and let the system fall over when the UPS runs out of battery.

nayuki 3y ago
Some SSDs brick themselves in an abrupt shutdown.
- secabeen 3y ago
  Do you know which ones, so I can avoid them?
  - nayuki 3y ago
    https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/fast13/fast13-final80.pdf https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/fast13/fast13... "Understanding the Robustness of SSDs under Power Fault" [2013] > Even worse, two of the fifteen devices became massively corrupted, with one no longer registering on the SAS bus at all after 136 fault cycles, and another suffering one third of its blocks becoming inaccessible after merely 8 fault cycles

1letterunixname 3y ago

Don't even bother buying used enterprise APC units because firmware updates now require $$$. NMC2 and NMC3 can't even install proper SSL certs without some shitty Windows-only tool.

neilv 3y ago

After many UPSes at home over the years, I currently have only 1 (a business-grade rackmount Cyberpower), and once it needs a new battery pack, I'll probably just switch to a surge protector. My local electric is pretty stable, I no longer run servers at home that need to be up 24/7, most of my work at home is on a laptop with integrated battery backup, I can use my phone WiFI AP mode for backup Internet, UPSes are a pain to move between apartments, and UPSes have a small risk of dangerous battery leakage.

mastax 3y ago

I'm having exactly the same issue with apcupsd and my APC Smart-UPS X 1500, so it's not just an issue with the cheapo units.

binkHN 3y ago

I refused to go down this route; the hours lost in frustration are not worth it. I purchased a UPS that supports a network management card, basically an overpriced SNMP daemon with an Ethernet interface, and have been happy ever since, since every system can query the status of the UPS.

Animats 3y ago

Have low-end UPS units gone lithium iron phosphate yet? That's the battery technology of choice now for non-portable applications. Cheaper and longer-lived than lithium-ion, no thermal runaway risk, about the same energy density per cubic meter, but twice the weight. Such UPSs are available in small rackmount units.[1] The usual serious players, such as Tripp-Lite, have LiFeP04 battery powered units. Searching for consumer-grade LiFePo4 UPSs turns up many articles on how to replace crappy batteries in UPS units with newer battery technology. The batteries themselves are cheap now. APC doesn't seem to have caught up yet. This looks like an APC corporate problem. [1] https://www.falconups.com/ups/lifepo4-ups-sl.htm https://www.falconups.com/ups/lifepo4-ups-sl.htm

paulmd 3y ago
> Have low-end UPS units gone lithium iron phosphate yet? no, and afaik it's a cost thing. the unit you link is "request for quote" and being a rackmount unit it's probably not what consumers would think of as inexpensive. I have three of the classic fire-hazard cyberpower 1500PFCLCD and each of them has a pair of small sealed lead-acid (SLA) batteries that cost maybe $30-40 each to replace. If you assume that the OEM gets them for $20 apiece, how much LiFePO4 battery does that buy? I know the big industrial cells are cheaper than what you can get as small individual cells, but I'm positive it's still going to be 4-10x more expensive. now remember that's a unit that retails for $135-150, and there are like 3-4 tiers of units below that... how much LiFePO4 can you buy for $10 to put into that $50 UPS? (fake edit I looked one of them up from the datasheet and it's $700 for the lowest-tier 1000VA unit lol)
- oceanplexian 3y ago
  It’s not only a cost thing, they don’t have the power output for the same form factor. You can technically swap in those 12v LiFePo4 “replacements” into a cheap UPS but they don’t put out nearly as many peak amps as good old SLAs. Lithium Ion and Polymer can but they also run the risk of blowing up. I’ve played with basically all these chemistries doing model airplanes and DIY drones.
  - 3y ago

neilv 3y ago

For most home use, you don't need UPS monitoring. If you're home when it switches to battery power, the equipment will probably have been protected from any surge, and you'll hear the beeps from the UPS, and can manually shut down equipment. If you're not home, and the power doesn't come on soon enough, power will be cut to protected equipment, without a surge, and at most the equipment probably only needs the auto-`fsck`. And because no monitor means that you can have the UPS airgapped for data, there's less theoretical risk of a remote firmware hack causing a fire/explosion or toxic leak.

zettabomb 3y ago
The point is for when you're not home, it can automatically shut down your PC. It's actually quite useful if you happen to have a home lab. The nicer units can monitor temperature and humidity and send you an email if they exceed specified limits, which can be VERY useful if you live in a flood prone area, for example.
- neilv 3y ago
  I'm sure it's useful for some, but not most. I have a homelab of a few servers, with a nice rackmount UPS, and I decided data connection to the UPS is more risk than good, in my case. Environmental monitoring doesn't have to be part of the UPS. And APC has long made separate devices for that, for data centers/racks. In addition to the modern IoT home devices.
  - zettabomb 3y ago
    Oh sure, I'm just thinking in the realm of HN... perhaps it's more common than average! But having a networked UPS is non-negotiable for me, as far as I'm concerned it's no use if the servers power off hard anyways. It's on a VLAN without internet access so really not much risk either.

persnickety 3y ago

Are there any UPS that output ATX directly? I'm not seeing much of a point powering a small server from battery with AC if it all gets converted to DC anyway. Laptops got it right.

jauntywundrkind 3y ago
Only another 4 years till Google's patent on using a laptop configuration in a server expires! https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/02/15/google-files-patent-on-ups-architecture https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/02/15/goog... I doubt this one in any of the patent pools (OIN) but maybe they wouldn't sue anyhow?
- persnickety 3y ago
  I'm feeling a mix of outrage, disbelief, and "what was I expecting" right now.

bl_valance 3y ago

I use one for my Synology UPS with no issues, has saved it multiple times and is able to gracefully shutdown when switched to battery for x-minutes.

TowerTall 3y ago

My biggest grief with the APC UPS are that they initiate the shutdown process immediately in case of power loss. I live in a location where we frequent has 10 - 60 seconds power cuts. The optimal solution would be if the UPS waited like 5 minutes before starting to shutdown the connected PC. For this reason alone I stopped connecting my desktop pc to UPS and stopped installing the UPS powershute software. I wrote their support and asked if i could daisy chain a battery with the UPS so the battery would be used first and when that battery was depleted the UPS would take over and start the shutdown process. They advices me against this and pointed me to this FAQ. It doesn't directly adressing daisy chaining a UPS with a battery. Anyone here that has experience with doing that? https://www.apc.com/us/en/faqs/FA157424/ https://www.apc.com/us/en/faqs/FA157424/

dantastic 3y ago

I had this problem with a Cyberpower VP1500EILCD. I created this udev rule to stop the USB auto suspend feature and it's been rock solid since: SUBSYSTEM=="usb", ATTR{idVendor}=="0764", ATTR{idProduct}=="0501", GROUP="nut", ATTR{power/autosuspend}="-1"

Udo 3y ago

The thing I keep re-reading is > popped the breaker for the sockets causing everything to be harshly powered off. My fileserver took it badly and one drive died. Maybe someone with more hardware knowledge could chime in, but my default assumption would be that the hard drive died either because it couldn't take another power-off/on cycle, or because the event that caused the circuit breaker to pop was harsh enough to damage it (not sure how much the computer's power supply insulates components from things like that, but intuitively, there are much more voltage-sensitive components in PCs than hard drives). While a UPS might have been effective against a surge, it would not have saved the drive from dying by power cycling. My hypothesis is that most equipment doesn't need to be notified when on UPS, it could in fact be harmful when it causes a power cycle that turns out to be unnecessary. An orderly shutdown doesn't matter that much unless you're dealing with an app that can become internally inconsistent, such as a database. In all other scenarios, the journaling FS takes care of data integrity. So, especially for home use, why not just let the UPS run until it's out?

sebazzz 3y ago

I have a BX750MI and this one still works. Still, it is good to have the warning.