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Vvvv – A hybrid visual/textual development environment
- panzi 3y agoNot to be confused with VVVVV and VVVVVV, apparently.
- tlhunter 3y agoWith the appropriatly named domain: https://thelettervsixtim.es/ https://thelettervsixtim.es/
- lylejantzi3rd 3y agoor VVV. https://varyingvagrantvagrants.org/ https://varyingvagrantvagrants.org/
- fishpen0 3y agoShooting yourself in the foot with marketing and branding on day one is a "made by engineers" tale as old as time.
- drivers99 3y agoVVVVVV (6 V's) is a fun game (I've played it before, and it has "overwhelmingly positive" reviews on steam). VVVVV (5 V's) appears to also be a game on Steam with mixed reviews, maybe looking for customers confusing it with the other game?
- bobbylarrybobby 3y agoNo surprise that VVVVV gets worse ratings, it has 1/6 less of what makes the game fun
- bj-rn 3y agohttps://vvvv.org/documentation/meaningofvvvv https://vvvv.org/documentation/meaningofvvvv
- nickthegreek 3y agoPreviously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842176 Vvvv – a live-programming environment for easy prototyping and development (June 5, 2016 — 187 points, 36 comments)
- dang 3y agoThanks! Macroexpanded: Vvvv – A Multipurpose Toolkit - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22013162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22013162 - Jan 2020 (1 comment) Vvvv – a live-programming environment for easy prototyping and development - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842176 - June 2016 (36 comments) Vvvv: A hybrid visual/textual live-programming environment for easy prototyping - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9179648 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9179648 - March 2015 (3 comments) Celebrity birthday wishes to vvvv's 10th anniversary - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4972179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4972179 - Dec 2012 (1 comment) VVVV.js - the VVVV language ported to JavaScript - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2813713 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2813713 - July 2011 (10 comments)
- slingnow 3y agoThe landing page is as opaque as the name. I _think_ this might be something cool, but I have absolutely no idea what it is based on the landing page and the included video.
- corysama 3y agoYou have to click to enable the video on the page, but it shows the outputs of the program: real-time 3D audio-visual art installations.
- bj-rn 3y agoCheck https://visualprogramming.net https://visualprogramming.net instead. There are two versions of vvvv the old one called "beta" and the newer one (complete rewrite) called "gamma". vvvv.org is more focused on the old version.
- araes 3y agoLooking at the page, it seems like there's nothing other than art installations in the Showcase. https://visualprogramming.net/#Showcase https://visualprogramming.net/#Showcase Is there something about the software the predisposes it being used only for art installations? Or just the community it attracts? It "looks" capable. It seems weird that out of all the showcases, there's not anything like normal industry projects. No games, no movies, no television shows. Lots of museum displays, AI scultures, art walls. Take Blender instead https://www.blender.org/features/ https://www.blender.org/features/ and its almost entirely "industry production pipeline" and "award winning shorts and films". Or Maya, which is pretty much nothing other than "used in Hogwarts, used in Avengers, used in Dune." Notably, not very many art walls or digi-scultures. Usually its a chicken and egg thing, like nobody uses it, because nobody famous has used it yet, except vvvv looks like it has plenty of users.
- bj-rn 3y ago> Or just the community it attracts? The way it works seems to appeal to "artists" / "creatives". It's pretty simple to get a visual output fast and the always running (hot-reload) aspect makes it easy to iterate on things, tweak some parameter (size, speed, color) and directly see the outcome. > normal industry projects It's used quite a lot in the context of trade fairs, not only for touchscreen exhibits but also stage shows. Nice example: https://nsynk.de/work/mercedes-iaa15 https://nsynk.de/work/mercedes-iaa15 There are also totally different kinds of projects/uses, they are just not that well documented. For example I know of a guy that programmed a feeding robot for a fish farm using vvvv. > nobody famous There is at least one "famous" user :) https://refikanadol.com https://refikanadol.com If you have further questions feel free to join their matrix chat: https://matrix.to/#/#vvvv:matrix.org https://matrix.to/#/#vvvv:matrix.org
- _neil 3y agoAs an example, if you’re familiar with Refik Anadol, he/they use vvvv for many of their works. https://refikanadol.com/works/melting-memories/ https://refikanadol.com/works/melting-memories/
- nomadtwin 3y agoI found www.cables.gl to be much more intuitive for node-based visual experiments (no install and collab mode)
- nomadtwin 3y agohttps://cables.gl https://cables.gl
- monetus 3y agoVvvv is a real, proper windows creative coding toolkit. More arcane than Max or touch designer, imo, but every bit suitable for entertainment industry jobs. It has been years since I used it, windows 7 actually, but their community had an old school "irc with angry sages" feel.
- g129774 3y agothere was a period in computer arts around 2008 or so (edit, björn's comment prompted a reflection, it might've been earlier than that, let's call it "early 2000s"), that went away like many things with pervasive computerization. vvvv including it's naming and otherwise opaqueness is a product of that period. it was represented by groups like TOPLAP and dorkbot, and it was kind of marriage of technologists and artists, back when such a marriage would've still been self-conscious. stylistically it was a lot of algorithmic generation, live coding, and noise, people liked to use puredata, and vvvv, and other such projects to produce sharp jittery zigzaging lines on a projector screen at get togethers in brooklyn. a kind of deliberate, practiced obscurantism was part of aesthetic, you weren't supposed to keep your PD patches organized. there was a particular typographic convention associated with projects of that time, involving a lot of deliberate but arbitrary additions of punctuation marks, -/////lower case letters, repeating letters00xxx. terms like psychogeorgaphy were involved, there was of course an {esoteric}} component to it. downstream the movement took chiptunes mainstream, and produce early minimal house. some of the conventions remain in the digital arts, and video production circles. so if you think vvvv is not propertly marketed, maybe will benefit from a mission statement, then it's not for you.
- bj-rn 3y ago> there was a period in computer arts around 2008 [...] vvvv including it's naming and otherwise opaqueness is a product of that period actually vvvv is about 10 years older.
- g129774 3y agothe dates are vague, while the point remains, because trying to remember things clearer i did livecoding at toplap in brooklyn 2004-2005, and i wasn't a pioneer. but also i'm talking artistic trends, something could've happened prior to it becoming part of bigger whole, but then evolved as part of the whole that it itself has brought about.
- g129774 3y agobut you're one of the meso guys, it would've been interesting to hear your opinions on what i said, outside the quible about dates. in my recollection vvvv leaned heavily into the aesthetic conventions around toplap at the time, and you must recall what i'm talking about judging by dates on your project page.
- jamal-kumar 3y agoI remember this crashing alot. TouchDesigner kind of ate its lunch but vvvv is still active - vvvv kind of keeps you locked into writing shit in .NET/C# but if that's your bag go for it
- sunep 3y agoany decent programming environment can crash your system. Once you have ironed out the bugs, it is super stable I current installations running that have been running since 2014 and 2017. Screens and LED's are beginning to fail, but the software is chugging along nicely.
- remram 3y agoThis seems like it might be relevant to my job, but I can't find out what it is exactly. Is it actually a renderer?
- bj-rn 3y agoI mentioned this aleady further down but check out: https://visualprogramming.net https://visualprogramming.net It does a better job at explaining things.
- jbl0ndie 3y agoIt's a node-based visual framework, I guess. Around 2006 I worked on a project using VVVV to create sound reactive, generative visuals that tracked a pop singer as he moved on an LED stage. The visuals were displayed on the stage. We had it hooked up to MIDI, time code, video, motion tracking and DMX lighting. Pretty impressive for the time, now I think about it.
- remram 3y agoBut what is a "visual framework"? The frontpage mentions everything from AR/VR to network streams to modeling... what does one do with this?
- bj-rn 3y agoIt's a visual programming environment for .net (the current stable version is based on .net6 while newer previews use .net8). Visual in the sense that programs are represented as node graphs.[1] You can basically do what ever you could with C#. Using the VL.Fuse[2] library you can also visually program on the GPU. If stuff is missing you can reference just about any nuget package or add functionality using C# (CPU) [3] or HLSL (GPU)[4]. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Node_graph_architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Node_graph_architecture [2]https://github.com/TheFuseLab/VL.Fuse https://github.com/TheFuseLab/VL.Fuse [3]https://thegraybook.vvvv.org/reference/extending/overview.html https://thegraybook.vvvv.org/reference/extending/overview.ht... [4]https://thegraybook.vvvv.org/reference/libraries/3d/shaders.html https://thegraybook.vvvv.org/reference/libraries/3d/shaders....
- gareth_untether 3y agoI used 4v professionally for a number of years. Probably would to be using it if the devvvvs focused on more platforms than just Windows. The best part of 4v is the community and the node festival. Lots of amazing techno artists.
- jbl0ndie 3y agoBack in the early 2000s there was such poor support from non-Windows for high powered graphics cards, it's no wonder vvvv never moved to other platforms. I worked at a Mac/Linux art studio in that time and we had to keep buying Windows boxes just to run the video artworks we produced. The hours we wasted trying to lock them down.
- chaosprint 3y agoI heard about vvvv in my first year of studying in this industry. And kyma for sound design. But I later discovered that the more mainstream ones are puredata and its commercial version max/msp. for sound design I also use: supercollider and csound. After some years, I felt that I still preferred text-based interaction while I need some even simpler live coding or prototyping tool. so I made https://glicol.org/ https://glicol.org/. for visuals, I would recommend: https://hydra.ojack.xyz/ https://hydra.ojack.xyz/ and https://nannou.cc/ https://nannou.cc/ Note that these are not replaceable for each other, you can look at them all
- fragmede 3y agoGlicol is awesome! I really like the non-linear edit/run loop you've created.
- lavela 3y agoI should try this again, too. Glicol looks nice and quite a bit more ergonomic than what I remember from Supercollider. Do you know of anything in the live coding space that can handle recording/looping/mangling of external audio gear? (as is sampling, not MIDI)
- chaosprint 3y agolol my first reaction is the Buf in SC. maybe sonic pi can do what you require. that's actually a feature on my todo list, as I'd love to have some digital reverb for my Eurorack.
- hmcq6 3y agoHydra was how I dipped my toes in. https://gibber.cc/playground/index.html https://gibber.cc/playground/index.html was a little too much for me at first but hydra was small enough for me to wrap my head around. I also recently learned you can force hydra to spit out the GLSL code, which is a pretty cool feature.
- doctorhandshake 3y agoSimilar - my Swiss Army knife in this department - TouchDesigner: https://derivative.ca https://derivative.ca
- danielvaughn 3y agoThis site may have been hugged to death, it's a dead link for me.
- andybak 3y agoI have complex feelings about visual programming that I haven't yet quite worked through. I oscillate between "it's a dreadful local minima that people get trapped in because real programming is so genuinely intimidating and hard to crack" and something more like "of wet could figure out how to take the good bits from visual and textual coding and avoid the worst bits of each, then we will reach the promised land". Or something like that.
- whstl 3y agoThe reason people use tools like vvvv, max, pd, reaktor, etc is not because they’re avoiding textual programming, but rather because those tools are better suited to specific tasks than regular textual programming. This also applies to things like excel or databases. Surely, one could implement a reaktor patch or a spreadsheet in their favorite language, but that doesn’t mean much.
- andybak 3y agoI've done a fair amount of both and there's an element of truth in your statement - but it's far from the whole picture. Spreadsheets solve data entry in terms of providing a nice UI - but when you add too many formula, the advantages quickly disappear and code starts to become a much saner way to handle the logic. As for other systems (audio and video tools) kinda yeah but no. There's some nice aspects to visualizing the data flow but that's something that can be implemented as a feature to text-based programming. Actual editing is more laborious and many tasks that are simple with text are complex in all the visual tools I've tried. I'm not saying visual tools have no advantages over text - I just feel that the cost is very high indeed and we should really be looking for a synthesis that gives us the best of both worlds.
- whstl 3y ago> but when you add too many formula So there is a “but”. Traditional programming also has a but: it can do anything a spreadsheet can, but it is often overkill. Spreadsheets etc are waaaaaaay faster and safer for 90% or more of the work. > I just feel that the cost is very high indeed and we should really be looking for a synthesis that gives us the best of both worlds But normal people is happy with the specific solutions in the meantime. Maybe there will be a proper visual language paradigm that will end all textual languages the future, sure, but in the meantime, comparing visual languages with this impossible utopic silver bullet is unfair and limiting.
- DrSiemer 3y agoHad a lot of fun just messing around with it during the slow pandemic year. Takuma Nakata made many interesting tutorials for it [1], although I think most of them are for beta, not gamma. When the latter was released it was still missing a lot of the functionality and libraries beta has, not sure how it is these days. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xaWkgVu_VhA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xaWkgVu_VhA
- sunep 3y agoI would say that by now most functionality is much better in Gamma than in Beta. Also Takuma Nakata had since made his learn log about him getting into gamma: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLK3HDkvkLePThFo_sp9hPuue_61nxkQOM&si=7wNdMUUbYzC223Pe https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLK3HDkvkLePThFo_sp9hPuue_... and also graphics in Gamma. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLK3HDkvkLePRQpgCIb8dL9CRSYOTmNbdI&si=Hc1aSqzkoUBg_ztW https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLK3HDkvkLePRQpgCIb8dL9CRS...