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US will relax pollution-limiting rules for vehicle emissions
- superkuh 3y agoThat seems very reasonable. The infrastructure to actually use EVs in the USA doesn't exist except for the coasts and around very large cities. Most of the area of the USA simply doesn't have it at all. Additionally, if everyone did have EV cars the current electrical grid infrastructure would not be able to support the increased load. These aren't problems with EVs, really, but they are show stoppers. The EV car infrastructure for a large, dispersed country like the USA is much harder than the cars themselves.
- perfunctory 3y ago> rules that would have forced US automakers to turn EVs into their main business by 2032 8 years is plenty of time.
- gjsman-1000 3y agoOn a big project, 8 years is no time at all.
- smileysteve 3y agoIt's going to feel much more dire if any of the major European or Korean brands approach their 2030 targets.
- 7thaccount 3y agoThe timeline is the biggest problem. Grid stuff moves extremely slowly due to the extremely critical aspect of the grid, slowish beauracracy of many organizations involved, high costs for generation and power lines, and permitting challenges. If you want to make everything electric and demand is going to triple in about a decade or so, then we simply have no way to respond to that in short order with the current reality of the system. The industry has seen more change in the past 10 years than the previous 50. There are a lot of moving parts. It's an exciting time to be working in power.
- adrianN 3y agoWhat parts of the US don’t have a grid that can tolerate about two dozen kWh per car per day extra load?
- mr337 3y agoThe OP must be talking about eastern Alaska ;)
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- toomuchtodo 3y agoWhere people live, the infrastructure exists. The US grid can handle existing load if almost 80% of current light vehicles moved to electric today (per DOE and NREL). This regulation is a cop out because the US is lazy. https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map (all automakers have adopted the NACS Tesla standard) https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/research/blog-can-the-grid-handle-evs-yes/ https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/research/blog-can-the-g... https://www.6sqft.com/50-of-americans-live-in-the-countrys-144-largest-counties/ https://www.6sqft.com/50-of-americans-live-in-the-countrys-1...
- dxhdr 3y ago> Where people live, the infrastructure exists. Have you tried using non-Tesla charging stations? It's a disaster! Those charging terminals are hastily thrown together pieces of junk, frankly. The hardware, software, billing, everything.
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- MrRadar 3y agoMost people should be doing most of their charging at home. As someone pointed out downthread, level 1 (120V/15A) charging should be sufficient to cover most people's daily driving needs as long as they can keep the vehicle plugged in while they're not driving it. Obviously this is much easier for some (people who own a home with a garage) than others (people who do not have a garage or other fixed parking spot) but that's a problem we can fix gradually as electric cars gain market share.
- someguydave 3y agoYep I agree EV charging “grid upgrades” will cost some amount but it is small potatoes in the big picture, like a couple pennies per day per person
- tw04 3y ago>Have you tried using non-Tesla charging stations? It's a disaster! Those charging terminals are hastily thrown together pieces of junk, frankly. The hardware, software, billing, everything. I've used public CCS charging for several years and I think your assessment is more than a bit harsh. Is the Tesla network more refined, reliable, and widespread? Yes. Is the CCS option "a disaster"? Absolutely not. I would call it a mixed bag. Level-2 charging has just worked 99.999% of the time. DC fast charging there are stations that can be out of service more often than I would like, but if you use the plugshare app you will almost certainly be able to reliably find chargers that are both working and available. It is extremely annoying to potentially have to use more than one app, but I would hope that will slowly change over time. The best thing the government could do is mandate some sort of centralized billing option for all of the various providers. For and GM are trying to do it through their apps but the problem is they only cover a subset of networks.
- stephen_g 3y agoThat’s not a useful observation regarding the grid - yes, if EVs magically appeared in everyone’s driveways tomorrow then there might be a problem, but over a decade or so it’s basically no issue. All this is factored into planning. Even just a little demand management helps a lot too (like incentivising people charging at certain times by making it cheaper).
- bb123 3y agoElectricity consumption in the US has historically been higher than it is now - why do you assume that a) the conversion to electric vehicles will be overnight b) the grid can't be enhanced to cope?
- DinoCoder99 3y agoSurely increased pressure would deliver the desired effect, not decreased pressure!
- someguydave 3y agoAre you saying places in the US lack electricity? Aside from long range travel, you only need an extra 120v 15A outlet for most EV use cases.
- tzs 3y agoNot quite. You need an extra 120 V 15 A outlet near someplace where you can leave your car overnight. That would be no problem at my house. My garage has plenty of 120 V 15 A outlets (although when I get an EV I'll have a 240 V 30 A outlet put in). Every apartment I've lived in did have an extra 120 V 15 A outlet, but none of them had one anywhere near my parking spot.
- adrianN 3y agoSo either is an area with sparse population where there are few public chargers and lots of people with garages, or it’s a dense area with apartments where it’s relatively easy to improve the infrastructure?
- someguydave 3y agoYeah exactly, I agree it will cost something to upgrade but the costs are just not that high
- smileysteve 3y agoThe interesting thing about high density parking spots; is that they are, also the most cost effective to add high density charging to; Whether outside or in a parking garage, - they tend to be located near the trunk line - where an additional transformer and meter can be added with least impact to aesthetics - either buried electrical or concrete mounted conduit have the lowest construction costs (compared to finishing behind walls)
- someguydave 3y agoYeah I mean maybe it would cost 50-100k to provide L2 charging for an entire apartment? Not zero but not really a big deal in the big picture
- shmerl 3y agoSo let them make the infrastructure instead of pushing the dates. What were they doing until now?
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- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 3y agoAfter land taxes catch on, we should get voters to understand that gas should simply cost more
- coldpie 3y agoPay $100 now, or pay $100,000 in a few years. This decision pushes us towards the latter. Bad move.
- plandis 3y agoThe Biden campaign is presumably rationally acting in a way they think will help get him reelected. If the alternative is a second Trump presidency then the choices are really a bad environmental choice or a Republican presidency which typically dont tend to enact policies that improve the environment.
- anon291 3y agoGreenhouse gas emissions dropped under Trump: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-greenhouse-gas-emissions-drop-trump-climate-experts/story?id=74848440 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-greenhouse-gas-emissions-... And no... criticisms about the economic situation during covid should not count. Trump is criticized for covid, and people argue he is responsible. Then he should be praised for the good and criticized for the bad equally.
- freejazz 3y agoSo his exacerbation of covid is a good thing because it caused greenhouse emissions to drop? Is that a serious argument?
- anon291 3y agoIn the sense that regulation of the markets increases prices for emissions and this lowers economic output, I fail to see how the lockdowns are a whole lot different from an economic perspective. The effect of lowering economic output is the same. What I did think the lockdowns showed was how much the current economy would need to be shutdown to achieve certain emissions targets.
- freejazz 3y ago
- karaterobot 3y agoNot a ton of information in this article, which appears to just summarize this NYT article: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/17/climate/biden-epa-auto-emissions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/17/climate/biden-epa-auto-em... https://archive.is/OJvBr https://archive.is/OJvBr It seems like the following things are true: * They are changing the milestones, but not the final goal. That is, according to this new plan, 2032 is still the target date for 2/3rds of new sales being EV, but the requirements will be relaxed until 2030, at which point they'll suddenly jump back up where they were in the old plan. I guess that's the "then a miracle occurs" step in the overall strategy. Sounds like it'll definitely work, can't see any way for that to fail. * This push comes from both automakers and labor unions, for different reasons. Finally, they can all agree on something, which is that you can use the threat of a second Trump presidency as leverage to make your job a little easier for a while.
- game_the0ry 3y agoYou know what else would help reduce carbon emissions? Banning private jets and mega-yachts. Funny how you never see that in the mainstream discourse.
- dj_gitmo 3y agoI'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the emissions from 10s of millions of personal vehicles is much more significant than a few thousand yachts. Don't get me wrong, I'm for adding restrictions on those things, but I see this private jet argument pop up as a way to avoid doing anything.
- ejb999 3y agoits not a way of not doing anything, its a way of showing the absurdity of telling little old ladies they can't get a new gas stove - or the struggling landscaper that he has to buy more expensive battery operated mowers, but Bill gates can fly around the planet on one of his many private jets - either it is a climate 'emergency' or it isn't. When the elites get real about making a personal sacrifice (not greenwashing one) - then maybe, just maybe the everyday Joe will get the message. ...and buying carbo credits doesn't count - that is no different than beating the heck out of your wife, and donating money afterwards to a battered women's shelter to absolve your sins.
- game_the0ry 3y agoIf the people who travel by private jet to davos keep telling the people who don't what to do and why, their arguments would have more credibility if they actually made similar sacrifices. Its hard to take Bill Gates seriously about climate change when he flies around unencumbered on his own private plane.
- coldpie 3y agoThose are not significant sources of emissions. All air travel, including commercial and private and goods transportation, is 1.9% of global emissions. All sea travel, including commercial and private and goods transportation, is 1.7%. Road travel is 11.9%.[1] Of that, more than half is personal transportation vehicles (i.e. not freight)[2]. This is why personal vehicles are the #1 target for transportation-related improvements. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/images/published/Emissions-by-sector-%E2%80%93-pie-charts_1302.webp https://ourworldindata.org/images/published/Emissions-by-sec... [2] https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/transport-sector-co2-emissions-by-mode-in-the-sustainable-development-scenario-2000-2030 https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/transport-sec...
- gnarlouse 3y agoSomebody have the “why this is the right choice” take ? Want to share?
- dj_gitmo 3y agoI'm not sure it's the "right" choice, but organized labor, is, and should, be an important constituency for the Democrats. Unfortunately the unions do better when Americans are buying massive trucks and SUVs.
- timbit42 3y agoHe wants to beat Trump.
- Geisterde 3y ago"Right" is a value judgement, meaning its all about whos asking. From an economics standpoint, regulation causes higher prices, less competition/innovation, and are unethical. From the prespective of the people who pushed this policy, its "oh ** ** **, gm is dead in the water and everyone else isnt far behind, my portfolio is in the toilet, we need to loosen these restrictions!".
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- quirk 3y agoIn Indiana our electricity comes primarily from coal, so EVs here run on coal. I'm not sure that is better for the environment than heavily-filtered exhaust from gasoline combustion. I'm just trying to understand why so much focus is on personal vehicles when emission comes mostly from other sources: https://www.c2es.org/content/international-emissions/#:~:text=Globally%2C%20the%20primary%20sources%20of,72%20percent%20of%20all%20emissions https://www.c2es.org/content/international-emissions/#:~:tex.... I assume because it's easier to tell people they can't drive a certain kind of car than it is to tell an energy company they can't burn a certain kind of fuel.
- ZeroGravitas 3y agoEVs are better in all US states: https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/09/electric-vehicles-reduce-carbon-pollution-in-all-u-s-states/ https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/09/electric-vehicles...
- coldpie 3y ago> I'm not sure that is better for the environment than heavily-filtered exhaust from gasoline combustion. It is: https://www.nationalobserver.com/2021/10/26/analysis/dirty-energy-coal-vs-cars https://www.nationalobserver.com/2021/10/26/analysis/dirty-e... You can find many more sources with a search for yourself. The numbers only get better as we continue to increase the percentage of renewables on the grid. Gasoline cars will never get better. > I'm just trying to understand why so much focus is on personal vehicles when emission comes mostly from other sources. I assume because it's easier to tell people they can't drive a certain kind of car than it is to tell an energy company they can't burn a certain kind of fuel. There's plenty of work going into making the grid renewable. Passenger cars are basically #2 on the list, no reason not to start tackling it now, too.