3 ms·

Can't make a cheap EV until you can make enough cheap batteries

by mavhc 3y ago

SR2Z 3y ago
No, that's not it. I refuse to buy a new Tesla because of some of the less user friendly (and IMO should be illegal) cost cutting measures: - Horrible QA (https://www.equinoxevforum.com/threads/cracks-developing-in-tesla-gigacastings.662/ https://www.equinoxevforum.com/threads/cracks-developing-in-...) - Extremely customer-hostile support strategies (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/08/angry-tesla-customers-sue-firm-over-grossly-exaggerated-ev-range/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/08/angry-tesla-cust...) - Absurd cost-cutting measures/temporary bouts of insanity that cripple the UX of their cars: - Why does the Model 3/Y not have steering wheel stalks!? - Why did they try to offer the Model S with only a (bad) yoke!? - Why is there no HUD/gauge cluster on the Model 3/Y!? I won't even get into just how ugly I (and anecdotally, many of my friends) find the Cybertruck; have you SEEN videos of people trying to actually use it as a truck and it completely failing to function offroad? All of this stuff is directly attributable to Elon Musk. He's demanding a 25% stake in the company from his board - the same board that was found to be so absurdly stacked in his favor that his last pay package was thrown out. Shareholders, at this point, should kick this guy out of Tesla and leave him to his true passions: shitposting on Twitter and SpaceX.
- IshKebab 3y ago
  I agree, not only have they stopped making new sane cars, but they're actively making their existing cars worse! * no indicator stalks * no forward/reverse control * apparently the automatic rain sensor doesn't work/exist (I think that's always been true; I just learned about it) It very much reminds me of Apple's backwards steps with magsafe, touchbar and the keyboard. Maybe they'll come to their senses but I dunno...
  - linsomniac 3y ago
    >* apparently the automatic rain sensor doesn't work/exist (I think that's always been true; I just learned about it) My Dec 2016 Model S has a "working" automatic rain sensor, it's just not as good as others I've seen. My '04 Audi A8 had a sensor so good that the first time it turned on I didn't know why, but then as I drove under some street lights I realized it had detected some really fine mist. On the other hand, part of the reason I switched from the Audi to the Tesla was that I had $10k in broken "toys" on the Audi (1 of 2 bluetooth radios, 2 doorhandle auto unlockers, leak in the air suspension, steering wheel adjustment motor, etc), and part of what I wanted in the Tesla was something less expensive maintenance wise. So making more do less (using the cameras for auto wipers) makes sense.
    - throwaway23305 3y ago
      My '13 Audi has significant problems with the rain sensor. It turns on when it shouldn't, doesn't turn off when it should, and when I first start the car and it's already raining I have to turn the wipers off and on. The best rain sensor I had was in my old Ford Mondeo '04.
    - nikau 3y ago
      Likelihood of air suspension failure approaches 100% regardless of brand. I'd suspect the number of traditional rain sensor failures can probably be counted on one hand. Tesla replace robust almost zero failure rate parts for cost only.
      - linsomniac 3y ago
        Sure, the rain sensor might have near zero failures. I would think the rain sensor probably has failure rates on the order of bluetooth radio failure rates, but I had one of those fail. But what has truly 0 failures is to eliminate the rain sensor entirely. More importantly though, the rain sensor is just one of many, many toys the Audi had. Failure rates are multiplicative, so if you can remove 50% of your parts, you eliminate a lot of points of failure, plus a ton of extra wiring and electrical problems, plus the whole problem of integration.
        IshKebab 3y ago
        > But what has truly 0 failures is to eliminate the rain sensor entirely. Only if you define "failure" as stops working. If you define it as not working, then it gives you a 100% failure rate.
  - mavhc 3y ago
    Pretty sure it has forward/reverse control It's all about cost cutting to make EVs cheaper to buy
    - IshKebab 3y ago
      It doesn't. You have to use the touch screen. Yeah, really.
      - mavhc 3y ago
        So it has a method to control forward and reverse? And a second method using AI, and a third using the capacitive buttons?
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  > the same board that was found to be so absurdly stacked in his favor that his last pay package was thrown out. It was thrown out purely on the grounds that the judge didn't like it. The pay package was approved by Tesla's non-Musk general shareholders.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Thrown out by a judge in the most corpo state on the country. It was so embarrassingly badly handled they couldn't even rubber stamp it.
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
      It was handled fine. If it had been badly handled, it would have been thrown out on those grounds. Instead, the grounds were "there is no reason for Elon Musk to be paid this much".
      - kasey_junk 3y ago
        No it really wasn’t. Delaware goes out of its way to trust corporate boards to make business decisions, especially around compensation. In this case Tesla screwed up at least 3 different standards that are generally biased towards the company against shareholders. Only the last of those 3 standards has anything to do with relative compensation. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-01-31/elon-musk-is-overpaid?embedded-checkout=true https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-01-31/elon-m...
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > was thrown out purely on the grounds that the judge didn't like it It was thrown out for technical but super legal reasons stemming from the Board’s lack of independence. Delaware judges don’t get to review pay packages approved by competently-run Boards.
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
doctorpangloss 3y ago
The batteries could be imported from China. Or maybe the whole car could be imported. You could have a cheap EV in America with a stroke of a pen. Thats kind of the point of the article. I mean maybe not on purpose.
- zie 3y ago
  It would have to be significantly cheaper than the credit. That might be very hard to come by. You also have to accept that many people will go out of their way for tax credits, even if they are literally losing money to get it.

Can't make a cheap EV until you can make enough cheap batteries

by mavhc 3y ago

Can't make a cheap EV until you can make enough cheap batteries

SR2Z 3y ago

No, that's not it. I refuse to buy a new Tesla because of some of the less user friendly (and IMO should be illegal) cost cutting measures: - Horrible QA (https://www.equinoxevforum.com/threads/cracks-developing-in-tesla-gigacastings.662/ https://www.equinoxevforum.com/threads/cracks-developing-in-...) - Extremely customer-hostile support strategies (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/08/angry-tesla-customers-sue-firm-over-grossly-exaggerated-ev-range/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/08/angry-tesla-cust...) - Absurd cost-cutting measures/temporary bouts of insanity that cripple the UX of their cars: - Why does the Model 3/Y not have steering wheel stalks!? - Why did they try to offer the Model S with only a (bad) yoke!? - Why is there no HUD/gauge cluster on the Model 3/Y!? I won't even get into just how ugly I (and anecdotally, many of my friends) find the Cybertruck; have you SEEN videos of people trying to actually use it as a truck and it completely failing to function offroad? All of this stuff is directly attributable to Elon Musk. He's demanding a 25% stake in the company from his board - the same board that was found to be so absurdly stacked in his favor that his last pay package was thrown out. Shareholders, at this point, should kick this guy out of Tesla and leave him to his true passions: shitposting on Twitter and SpaceX.

IshKebab 3y ago
I agree, not only have they stopped making new sane cars, but they're actively making their existing cars worse! * no indicator stalks * no forward/reverse control * apparently the automatic rain sensor doesn't work/exist (I think that's always been true; I just learned about it) It very much reminds me of Apple's backwards steps with magsafe, touchbar and the keyboard. Maybe they'll come to their senses but I dunno...
- linsomniac 3y ago
  >* apparently the automatic rain sensor doesn't work/exist (I think that's always been true; I just learned about it) My Dec 2016 Model S has a "working" automatic rain sensor, it's just not as good as others I've seen. My '04 Audi A8 had a sensor so good that the first time it turned on I didn't know why, but then as I drove under some street lights I realized it had detected some really fine mist. On the other hand, part of the reason I switched from the Audi to the Tesla was that I had $10k in broken "toys" on the Audi (1 of 2 bluetooth radios, 2 doorhandle auto unlockers, leak in the air suspension, steering wheel adjustment motor, etc), and part of what I wanted in the Tesla was something less expensive maintenance wise. So making more do less (using the cameras for auto wipers) makes sense.
  - throwaway23305 3y ago
    My '13 Audi has significant problems with the rain sensor. It turns on when it shouldn't, doesn't turn off when it should, and when I first start the car and it's already raining I have to turn the wipers off and on. The best rain sensor I had was in my old Ford Mondeo '04.
  - nikau 3y ago
    Likelihood of air suspension failure approaches 100% regardless of brand. I'd suspect the number of traditional rain sensor failures can probably be counted on one hand. Tesla replace robust almost zero failure rate parts for cost only.
    - linsomniac 3y ago
      Sure, the rain sensor might have near zero failures. I would think the rain sensor probably has failure rates on the order of bluetooth radio failure rates, but I had one of those fail. But what has truly 0 failures is to eliminate the rain sensor entirely. More importantly though, the rain sensor is just one of many, many toys the Audi had. Failure rates are multiplicative, so if you can remove 50% of your parts, you eliminate a lot of points of failure, plus a ton of extra wiring and electrical problems, plus the whole problem of integration.
      - IshKebab 3y ago
        > But what has truly 0 failures is to eliminate the rain sensor entirely. Only if you define "failure" as stops working. If you define it as not working, then it gives you a 100% failure rate.
- mavhc 3y ago
  Pretty sure it has forward/reverse control It's all about cost cutting to make EVs cheaper to buy
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    It doesn't. You have to use the touch screen. Yeah, really.
    - mavhc 3y ago
      So it has a method to control forward and reverse? And a second method using AI, and a third using the capacitive buttons?
thaumasiotes 3y ago
> the same board that was found to be so absurdly stacked in his favor that his last pay package was thrown out. It was thrown out purely on the grounds that the judge didn't like it. The pay package was approved by Tesla's non-Musk general shareholders.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  Thrown out by a judge in the most corpo state on the country. It was so embarrassingly badly handled they couldn't even rubber stamp it.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    It was handled fine. If it had been badly handled, it would have been thrown out on those grounds. Instead, the grounds were "there is no reason for Elon Musk to be paid this much".
    - kasey_junk 3y ago
      No it really wasn’t. Delaware goes out of its way to trust corporate boards to make business decisions, especially around compensation. In this case Tesla screwed up at least 3 different standards that are generally biased towards the company against shareholders. Only the last of those 3 standards has anything to do with relative compensation. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-01-31/elon-musk-is-overpaid?embedded-checkout=true https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-01-31/elon-m...
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > was thrown out purely on the grounds that the judge didn't like it It was thrown out for technical but super legal reasons stemming from the Board’s lack of independence. Delaware judges don’t get to review pay packages approved by competently-run Boards.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago

doctorpangloss 3y ago

The batteries could be imported from China. Or maybe the whole car could be imported. You could have a cheap EV in America with a stroke of a pen. Thats kind of the point of the article. I mean maybe not on purpose.

zie 3y ago
It would have to be significantly cheaper than the credit. That might be very hard to come by. You also have to accept that many people will go out of their way for tax credits, even if they are literally losing money to get it.