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The “low usage” comment is going to be more ammo against Apple unfortunately. The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment fro

The “low usage” comment is going to be more ammo against Apple unfortunately. The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple and a lack of parity, yet for the longest time Apple has played both sides by saying PWAs are a viable alternative to the App Store, all while channeling people to App Store for actual app downloads and not providing similar marketing or anything for PWAs

andsoitis 3y ago
welcome to tradeoffs and unintended consequences.
thimp 3y ago
Are you sure this isn't a tech industry viewpoint? I don't know anyone who knows what the difference between an app and a PWA is. I don't think I've seen anyone outside of the tech industry with a PWA active. In context 99% of the users I meet don't even know what USB-C is.
- tester89 3y ago
  The only PWA that I think gets any use on i(Pad)OS is that for the Financial Times.
  - dcow 3y ago
    It’s just iOS and macOS.
  - cal85 3y ago
    I thought that was gone but you’re right, app.ft.com still works and can be installed as a full screen PWA. But the main site, ft.com, isn’t a PWA (or at least, it doesn’t install as a full screen web app). I had assumed they had shut down the PWA, because I haven’t seen any promotion/mention of it for years (and I use ft.com a lot) so I don’t know how regular people would find out about it these days.
- anakaine 3y ago
  Fair call on your first point about PWA knowledge level in users. Regarding your users knowledge of what USB-C is: are you sure your user group are not potato's? Most people I know, including the teenage daughters and their friends, all know what USB-C is these days.
  - thimp 3y ago
    One of them was going to buy a new phone because it took a long time to charge. This was because she had a crap charger and crap cable. I am unsure if they are potatoes or not but I suspect they might be :)
    - red369 3y ago
      I don't necessarily think it applies in your example, but I've heard some very silly reasons given by people as their reason for upgrading. I think a lot of the time people give an excuse, or perhaps even a justification to themselves, when they really just want the excitement of new phone. I often catch myself inventing reasons why I should replace my perfectly fine phone.
      - thimp 3y ago
        No it was 6 months old and she doesn't care about it or phones. She thought it was broken. I charged it with my powerbank, an anker PD one and she ordered a proper charger off amazon. I gave her my spare USB-C cable. It was seen as a potential financial inconvenience having to do anything about it as well. Literally many people do not care enough to understand it. It's just a modern necessity, a tool.
        illumin8 3y ago
        This is my wife. She purchased a bunch of USB-A to USB-c cables off Amazon and wonders why her laptop runs out of power while plugged in - it's because the laptop needs 25-30 watts and those cables can only put out 5 watts because they're limited by the USB-A port. USB-c PD is such a dumpster fire of a standard. Even with supposedly high end cables like Anker you often can't charge a Macbook Pro faster than it can drain it's own battery under load. We can't expect normal people to understand why there are a dozen different cable types that all have the same tip but charge at vastly different rates...
- benguild 3y ago
  Correct on it being a tech industry viewpoint— people think "apps come from the App Store" and therefore anything else that's clunky requires a fair amount of education and payoff for users to adopt. It's off balance, and it shows now that the tech has to be removed since it wasn't actually at parity despite it being an argument for it unfortunately. The worst part? This has been the case for 15 years. It's not like there wasn't enough time to fix it. That's plenty of time to hire and develop solutions, yet now look at the reasons for it being taken away.
  - ric2b 3y ago
    On Android you can install PWA's from the App Store, no reason why Apple couldn't also support it.
- darylteo 3y ago
  Going on a slight tangent: I do get many clients inquiring about PWA because "they don't need to pay 30% per purchase". This is anecdotal, of course... they wouldn't be able to tell you what it is, but all they care about is that they save 30%. So there is definitely "interest" in PWAs.
- dangus 3y ago
  I think PWAs are an outright failure and a technical solution looking for a problem. I don’t even know where to find one. For one thing, if Apple is complying with the EU’s alternative App Store and browser engine mandate, they’re even less useful than before. Why do I as a user want a PWA when I could have a native app?
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    I mean, the problem is the same one introduced since the two big mobile platforms were established: "I want to publish to IOS/Android as a native app without needing to have two separate builds to manage". PWAs make that pitch to those who already have websites to triple dip. It never has to promise to be as good as a native app, just "good enough". Does it live up to that? YMMV. It's probably fine for very simple apps, probably comes apart at the seams for anything trying to look modern or have fancier functionality.
    - claytongulick 3y ago
      I've built large, complex and beautiful healthcare apps as a PWA. The only two things I've ever missed from native functionality are: - background geolocation - push notifications on ios The second one was fixed recently. In contrast, from what I've seen 90+ percent of apps I see in the app stores would be better as a web page / PWA.
      - dangus 3y ago
        But the real question is where most of your users live. I’d take a decent wager that most of your users are most familiar with apps and would prefer installing full apps. Doesn’t matter that most apps would be better suited to being a web page or PWA if that’s not where the users are. That’s kind of like saying that PCs are better at gaming than consoles. Yes, that’s true, but that’s not where the majority of users are.
        johnnyanmac 3y ago
        I mean, PWAs aren't made with the goal to maximize User UX. It's a cost saving measure like any other solution that isn't making 2 dedicated native apps for IOS/Android.it won't get as much traffic as a native app, but it's almost "free" to deploy. To use the gaming console example, it's not unlike using an emulator to launch your game on PC (if you could somehow monetize an emulated rom). It's not the ideal experience, but it requires very little extra work.
- afavour 3y ago
  You’re right but a lot of that has to do with discoverability and the lack thereof on iOS. On Android you can show an install prompt via the browser or even package your PWA to be distributed via the Play Store. On iOS you have to do a strange incantation of “sharing” a web page to your Home Screen via a submenu. Its utterly unituitive so it’s not too surprising that most don’t.
  - cal85 3y ago
    I think it's pretty feasible for a web app (assuming the user trusts it) to prompt a user and explain how to add it to homescreen from iOS Safari. I can imagine, and think I've seen in the past, a nice-enough UI flow to get people to install a PWA. After explaining the benefits, you have an "Add to Home Screen" CTA button. When the user taps that, if it's iOS Safari, you pop up a modal that visually explains the two steps required, which are (1) tapping the button at the bottom of the screen, and (2) tapping the "Add to Home Screen" menu item. (OK they need to do one final tap on 'Add' to confirm the title, but most users who've got this far would manage that on their own.) I agree that's not as good as a native install prompt but I don't think it's a strange incantation/utterly unintuitive. I know that icon originally meant 'share' but these days it means a wider range of things - basically "take this thing somewhere else".
    - afavour 3y ago
      It’s definitely possible, I’ve done it myself in the past (it’s still very annoying owing to the different position of button on iPhone vs iPad) and the analytics show some users get it. But as compared to “find us in the App Store” it’s night and day. It’s also a very inconsistent experience: some sites have set themselves up as fully featured PWAs, others have made no efforts at all. Both get the same button.
- lloeki 3y ago
  > In context 99% of the users I meet don't even know what USB-C is. OH (frequently): - hey I need to to up, do you have a phone charger? - yup, which kind? - not "an Apple" - oh, so USB? - yeah the "standard" one, not the "new usb" That said, I'm surprised many do know about the literal "usb-c" term. Micro USB A though flies over their head, it's "small usb" or "standard usb" every time. Of note: EU here, and while they by and large don't know about the EU standardising stuff they did notice the effect. I've seen a few refer to USB-C as "universal one" (largely coz it works the same for both phones and laptops)
  - dominojab 3y ago
    [dead]
  - pmontra 3y ago
    With my friends it's either "USB-C" or the "round USB". Maybe it's already too old to be referred to as the "new USB". The old one is definitely the "old USB" or the "not round USB".
- JacobThreeThree 3y ago
  >Are you sure this isn't a tech industry viewpoint? I don't know anyone who knows what the difference between an app and a PWA is. I don't think I've seen anyone outside of the tech industry with a PWA active. The more important context is the legal one, not what laypeople think. Apple is presenting PWAs as viable alternatives to the app store in a legal context: https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Apple%20Pty%20Limited%20%2810%20February%202021%29.pdf https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Apple%20Pty%20Limited%2...
  - f1shy 3y ago
    No. It is not! The law is for the people, for the „laymen“, not for lawers.
  - gtsteve 3y ago
    Companies can quite happily hold two opposing viewpoints when it suits them. Apple's products usually have some kind of pleasing consistency but that doesn't mean their corporate dealings have to be. In a similar vein, a startup will be very happy to talk about how valuable it is, except when it comes to talking to tax authorities, whereupon suddenly their shares are borderline worthless.
    - dnissley 3y ago
      Eh, this is at least a little different. Startups talk themselves up to investors where they need to convince the investors that they will be really valuable at some point in the future. This is compared to tax authorities who are only concerned about current value, which is often essentially zero when it comes to startups.
  - EricHolden12 3y ago
    But now they’ve allowed alternative app stores so why are PWAs still required?
    - beeboobaa 3y ago
      Because they have already been heavily invested in and are cross platform. Sure, Apple has already been fucking over PWAs by refusing to implement certain web standards, but they still promoted them and they are heavily used in certain industries.
- formerly_proven 3y ago
  So what's a Home Screen Web App in this context? Is it adding a bookmark to the home screen (you open it, and it opens in the regular full iOS Safari), or something else?
jdminhbg 3y ago
So are PWAs really popular on Android?
- shuckles 3y ago
  I think the advocate retort is that lack of support on iOS makes them a nonstarter for developers on all platforms. I think this argument is more of an excuse.
  - dangus 3y ago
    Right, Android has something like 70% global marketshare. PWAs aren’t popular because they don’t really benefit developers/businesses. They also don’t offer any advantages in user experience over a native app. Apart from the economics, there’s no developer friction advantage since you can use something like react native and deploy anywhere. The kind of deep user information you can gather by installing a full blown app compared to a more sandboxed web app is worth way more than the 30% royalty cut.
    - kristiandupont 3y ago
      There is great value in building one product instead of three. >The kind of deep user information you can gather by installing a full blown app compared to a more sandboxed web app is worth way more than the 30% royalty cut. What kind of information is that?
      - dickersnoodle 3y ago
        Great value to whom? The only value I've ever heard of that made any sense at all was "saves me money and lets me change things and publish them faster" and that (as other commenters have said) is a developer / manager value, not a user value.
        capr 3y ago
        Developer value is totally user value. The developer "changes things and publish them faster" for the customer, it's not a hobby.
stephenr 3y ago
> not providing similar marketing or anything for PWAs It's functionality to add an arbitrary webpage. What exactly are you expecting them to "provide"?
m463 3y ago
how do they know low usage if there is no download from apple?
- overstay8930 3y ago
  Because they know what’s on your Home Screen If you enable Usage analytics?
- Teckla 3y ago
  Most likely telemetry in iOS itself. iOS knows when users pin web pages to the home screen, and iOS knows each time a user taps on and opens those pinned web pages.
- NorwegianDude 3y ago
  Apple are extensively tracking users, that's how they can know.
nemothekid 3y ago
>The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple I don’t know if this ironic given that apple originally didn’t want to support native apps and gave in due to developer demand. Apple both did and didn’t want web apps
turquoisevar 3y ago
> The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple and a lack of parity This is a trite argument that hasn’t been true ever since Jen Simmons joined Apple in 2020 and changed the course of Safari significantly to the point that PWAs not only are viable, they have been given feature parity with native apps on many fronts. Simultaneously, the argument completely bypasses the fact that install rates of PWAs are abysmal on any platform. Whether it be iOS, Android or Windows. Contrary to what PWA developers, industry organizations and other stakeholders proselytize, PWAs aren’t the second coming and the next best thing since sliced bread. At least not when it comes to install rates. Edit: Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure they’re great as “websites”. Lord knows people who sell PWAs[0] love to brag about bounce rates and conversion rates and what not. But there’s a reason why you can find barely anything about install rates other than some vague statistics about individual unnamed PWAs[1] or PWA sellers[2] talking about obviously bogus 10x and 3-5x install rates, and it’s not because the PWA crowd is too shy to brag. 0: https://www.pwastats.com/ https://www.pwastats.com/ 1: https://developer.chrome.com/blog/pwa-install-features https://developer.chrome.com/blog/pwa-install-features 2: https://mobsted.com/pwa_vs_native_mobile_apps_install_rates_compare https://mobsted.com/pwa_vs_native_mobile_apps_install_rates_...
- jchw 3y ago
  That's kind of the point, PWAs don't have parity on any platform, but Apple's platforms are the only ones where it is being positioned as a legitimate alternative; Android has "sideloading", Windows has REGULAR loading. It doesn't matter who joined Apple when and did what, PWAs on iPhone are not like native apps, it's not even really close. It's good that this pathetic line of argument wasn't much of a deterrence for the EU. What people want isn't PWAs, they just want the kind of capabilities that computers have had for decades, including many of Apple's current computers for sale today. To be able to install an application and run it.
  - turquoisevar 3y ago
    > That's kind of the point, PWAs don't have parity on any platform That’s not true, nor what I posited. PWAs have almost all the native features, if not all, depending on the platform. Plenty of “pro-PWA” people go out of their way to demonstrate this[0]. I’m talking about install rates and usage by end users in a way similar to using a native app. Whether you agree on parity or not, you seem to concede that PWAs aren’t wildly adopted the way native apps are. As such, it makes sense that Apple wouldn’t want to waste engineering resources on it by rewriting the underlying architecture, which is the topic at hand. That in and of itself ends the debate. You then go on, OT, about whether Apple should or shouldn’t position websites and PWAs as legitimate alternatives. Saying: > but Apple's platforms are the only ones where it is being positioned as a legitimate alternative Specifically, Apple states[1]: > If the App Store model and guidelines are not best for your app or business idea that’s okay, we provide Safari for a great web experience too. An alternative isn’t, as you seem to imply, an identical option; instead, it is simply understood to mean a different choice, usually a choice different from what is usual. One might say, "In the absence of a better alternative, we’ll have to proceed with our original plan.” This use in and of itself implies that one option is better than another, thus not identical. Whether something is “legitimate” or, more specifically, a “legitimate alternative” entirely depends on the person making the consideration and the value judgment they make based on their needs and wants. I might consider soda a “legitimate alternative” to coffee because I’m just looking for a beverage, whereas a different person might not deem it a legitimate alternative. After all, they are solely interested in a warm beverage. With that in mind, I consider web pages, particularly PWAs, a legitimate alternative to native apps because most native functions are available to PWAs on iOS. You might not because your need might be one of the few things PWAs can’t provide. That doesn’t make it a bad-faith argument on Apple’s part; they never claimed that PWAs are an identical option to native apps via their App Store. They offered up an alternative that can provide some, if not most, of what a native app can provide. You continue with your OT by presenting a false equivalence > Android has "sideloading", Windows has REGULAR loading. It’s a false equivalence because neither Google nor OEMs present sideloading as a legitimate alternative; it simply exists, but it’s not promoted as an alternative option. Google specifically likes to write copious amounts of words in blog posts[1] and whatnot, talking about how great PWAs are while wearing their Chrome hat. Meanwhile, the PWA experience on Android is marginally better than that on iOS, provided you use Google’s browser. Where is your indignation for that? They’re promoting PWAs harder than Apple will ever do. For that matter, Microsoft also doesn’t call “regular loading” a legitimate alternative, so again, your equivalence makes no sense. > It doesn't matter who joined Apple when and did what Of course it does; if you don’t go OT, that is. Whether Safari is or isn’t suitable for PWAs is essential to assess if PWAs are used in meaningful quantities. If someone posits that Safari doesn’t properly support PWAs when that isn’t true, like GP did, then it’s important to point that out and provide context on when that changed. It doesn’t matter to you because you’re having an entirely separate discussion. > PWAs on iPhone are not like native apps Yes, they are. As stated above, they’re not identical, but they are similar to, or if you prefer, “like” native apps. > it's not even really close This is a value judgment because it requires that you and I agree on the definition of “close.” I argue that they’re pretty close because they can do about 90% of what native apps can do. > It's good that this pathetic line of argument wasn't much of a deterrence for the EU. Let’s keep it classy and within HN guidelines. > What people want isn't PWAs Hence, the low install rate of PWAs and why it’s not weird that Apple didn’t decide to spend engineering resources on rewriting the underlying architecture for PWA installs. Again, that, in and of itself, ends the debate. > they just want the kind of capabilities that computers have had for decades, including many of Apple's current computers for sale today. To be able to install an application and run it. I’m not sure what you base this on. From here, it looks like you’re projecting your own wants onto the average iPhone user base at large. Do you have anything that expands on how many iPhone users share your vision? The commercial success of iPhones suggests that not many seem to care for this. I suppose alternatively, you could argue that the fact that Android dominates globally indicates there is a demand for this in the smartphone market[2]. Still, the obvious question then becomes why those iPhone users wouldn’t just join in Android’s dominance and switch over, particularly those who feel so strongly about this that they’d spend their time online lamenting its absence. 0: https://whatpwacando.today https://whatpwacando.today 1: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#introduction https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#int... 2: This is simplified, of course; one feature wouldn’t be the sole driver of Android’s dominance
treflop 3y ago
From Apple’s PoV, PWAs don’t earn them any money, aren’t forced through review by Apple, and decrease lock-in. There is no incentive for Apple to support PWAs.
- ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
  So it is now their fiduciary duty to enshitify the web? Nice system
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Enshitify ChromeOS actually.
  - brookst 3y ago
    That cringe neologism refers to shifting from making money by delivering value to users to making money by exploiting the user base.
anon373839 3y ago
I recommend that everyone interested in this topic read some of the comments from PWA developers at: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=268643 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=268643 Apple’s decision is going to kill businesses and break apps used by hundreds of thousands of people in Europe, many of whom are healthcare workers delivering patient care.
- EricHolden12 3y ago
  Patient care apps as PWAs? Yikes.
  - seba_dos1 3y ago
    Patient care apps as native blobs for selected platforms? Yikes.
  - niutech 3y ago
    What's unusual with it? I even do my online banking exclusively via web browser.
  - SCdF 3y ago
    What's the concern here?
  - cromka 3y ago
    Eric, we need answers!
- EchoChamberMan 3y ago
  Apple doesn't care, unfortunately for humans. Jerome Powell of the US federal reserve knew that he would put companies out of business, and people would lose jobs, when they raised the rates. In fact, that was the goal. "In September, hiring was much greater than had been expected, with the unemployment rate staying near a half-century low. Strong hiring typically empowers workers to demand higher wages, which, in turn, can worsen inflation if their employers pass on the higher labor costs by raising their prices." https://apnews.com/article/federal-reserve-inflation-economy-prices-powell-unemployment-e64132f742d9141c28d0d79794e274b4 https://apnews.com/article/federal-reserve-inflation-economy...
scarface_74 3y ago
So why is there also low usage on Android?

andsoitis 3y ago

welcome to tradeoffs and unintended consequences.

thimp 3y ago

Are you sure this isn't a tech industry viewpoint? I don't know anyone who knows what the difference between an app and a PWA is. I don't think I've seen anyone outside of the tech industry with a PWA active. In context 99% of the users I meet don't even know what USB-C is.

tester89 3y ago
The only PWA that I think gets any use on i(Pad)OS is that for the Financial Times.
- dcow 3y ago
  It’s just iOS and macOS.
- cal85 3y ago
  I thought that was gone but you’re right, app.ft.com still works and can be installed as a full screen PWA. But the main site, ft.com, isn’t a PWA (or at least, it doesn’t install as a full screen web app). I had assumed they had shut down the PWA, because I haven’t seen any promotion/mention of it for years (and I use ft.com a lot) so I don’t know how regular people would find out about it these days.
anakaine 3y ago
Fair call on your first point about PWA knowledge level in users. Regarding your users knowledge of what USB-C is: are you sure your user group are not potato's? Most people I know, including the teenage daughters and their friends, all know what USB-C is these days.
- thimp 3y ago
  One of them was going to buy a new phone because it took a long time to charge. This was because she had a crap charger and crap cable. I am unsure if they are potatoes or not but I suspect they might be :)
  - red369 3y ago
    I don't necessarily think it applies in your example, but I've heard some very silly reasons given by people as their reason for upgrading. I think a lot of the time people give an excuse, or perhaps even a justification to themselves, when they really just want the excitement of new phone. I often catch myself inventing reasons why I should replace my perfectly fine phone.
    - thimp 3y ago
      No it was 6 months old and she doesn't care about it or phones. She thought it was broken. I charged it with my powerbank, an anker PD one and she ordered a proper charger off amazon. I gave her my spare USB-C cable. It was seen as a potential financial inconvenience having to do anything about it as well. Literally many people do not care enough to understand it. It's just a modern necessity, a tool.
      - illumin8 3y ago
        This is my wife. She purchased a bunch of USB-A to USB-c cables off Amazon and wonders why her laptop runs out of power while plugged in - it's because the laptop needs 25-30 watts and those cables can only put out 5 watts because they're limited by the USB-A port. USB-c PD is such a dumpster fire of a standard. Even with supposedly high end cables like Anker you often can't charge a Macbook Pro faster than it can drain it's own battery under load. We can't expect normal people to understand why there are a dozen different cable types that all have the same tip but charge at vastly different rates...
benguild 3y ago
Correct on it being a tech industry viewpoint— people think "apps come from the App Store" and therefore anything else that's clunky requires a fair amount of education and payoff for users to adopt. It's off balance, and it shows now that the tech has to be removed since it wasn't actually at parity despite it being an argument for it unfortunately. The worst part? This has been the case for 15 years. It's not like there wasn't enough time to fix it. That's plenty of time to hire and develop solutions, yet now look at the reasons for it being taken away.
- ric2b 3y ago
  On Android you can install PWA's from the App Store, no reason why Apple couldn't also support it.
darylteo 3y ago
Going on a slight tangent: I do get many clients inquiring about PWA because "they don't need to pay 30% per purchase". This is anecdotal, of course... they wouldn't be able to tell you what it is, but all they care about is that they save 30%. So there is definitely "interest" in PWAs.
dangus 3y ago
I think PWAs are an outright failure and a technical solution looking for a problem. I don’t even know where to find one. For one thing, if Apple is complying with the EU’s alternative App Store and browser engine mandate, they’re even less useful than before. Why do I as a user want a PWA when I could have a native app?
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  I mean, the problem is the same one introduced since the two big mobile platforms were established: "I want to publish to IOS/Android as a native app without needing to have two separate builds to manage". PWAs make that pitch to those who already have websites to triple dip. It never has to promise to be as good as a native app, just "good enough". Does it live up to that? YMMV. It's probably fine for very simple apps, probably comes apart at the seams for anything trying to look modern or have fancier functionality.
  - claytongulick 3y ago
    I've built large, complex and beautiful healthcare apps as a PWA. The only two things I've ever missed from native functionality are: - background geolocation - push notifications on ios The second one was fixed recently. In contrast, from what I've seen 90+ percent of apps I see in the app stores would be better as a web page / PWA.
    - dangus 3y ago
      But the real question is where most of your users live. I’d take a decent wager that most of your users are most familiar with apps and would prefer installing full apps. Doesn’t matter that most apps would be better suited to being a web page or PWA if that’s not where the users are. That’s kind of like saying that PCs are better at gaming than consoles. Yes, that’s true, but that’s not where the majority of users are.
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        I mean, PWAs aren't made with the goal to maximize User UX. It's a cost saving measure like any other solution that isn't making 2 dedicated native apps for IOS/Android.it won't get as much traffic as a native app, but it's almost "free" to deploy. To use the gaming console example, it's not unlike using an emulator to launch your game on PC (if you could somehow monetize an emulated rom). It's not the ideal experience, but it requires very little extra work.
afavour 3y ago
You’re right but a lot of that has to do with discoverability and the lack thereof on iOS. On Android you can show an install prompt via the browser or even package your PWA to be distributed via the Play Store. On iOS you have to do a strange incantation of “sharing” a web page to your Home Screen via a submenu. Its utterly unituitive so it’s not too surprising that most don’t.
- cal85 3y ago
  I think it's pretty feasible for a web app (assuming the user trusts it) to prompt a user and explain how to add it to homescreen from iOS Safari. I can imagine, and think I've seen in the past, a nice-enough UI flow to get people to install a PWA. After explaining the benefits, you have an "Add to Home Screen" CTA button. When the user taps that, if it's iOS Safari, you pop up a modal that visually explains the two steps required, which are (1) tapping the button at the bottom of the screen, and (2) tapping the "Add to Home Screen" menu item. (OK they need to do one final tap on 'Add' to confirm the title, but most users who've got this far would manage that on their own.) I agree that's not as good as a native install prompt but I don't think it's a strange incantation/utterly unintuitive. I know that icon originally meant 'share' but these days it means a wider range of things - basically "take this thing somewhere else".
  - afavour 3y ago
    It’s definitely possible, I’ve done it myself in the past (it’s still very annoying owing to the different position of button on iPhone vs iPad) and the analytics show some users get it. But as compared to “find us in the App Store” it’s night and day. It’s also a very inconsistent experience: some sites have set themselves up as fully featured PWAs, others have made no efforts at all. Both get the same button.
lloeki 3y ago
> In context 99% of the users I meet don't even know what USB-C is. OH (frequently): - hey I need to to up, do you have a phone charger? - yup, which kind? - not "an Apple" - oh, so USB? - yeah the "standard" one, not the "new usb" That said, I'm surprised many do know about the literal "usb-c" term. Micro USB A though flies over their head, it's "small usb" or "standard usb" every time. Of note: EU here, and while they by and large don't know about the EU standardising stuff they did notice the effect. I've seen a few refer to USB-C as "universal one" (largely coz it works the same for both phones and laptops)
- dominojab 3y ago
  [dead]
- pmontra 3y ago
  With my friends it's either "USB-C" or the "round USB". Maybe it's already too old to be referred to as the "new USB". The old one is definitely the "old USB" or the "not round USB".
JacobThreeThree 3y ago
>Are you sure this isn't a tech industry viewpoint? I don't know anyone who knows what the difference between an app and a PWA is. I don't think I've seen anyone outside of the tech industry with a PWA active. The more important context is the legal one, not what laypeople think. Apple is presenting PWAs as viable alternatives to the app store in a legal context: https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Apple%20Pty%20Limited%20%2810%20February%202021%29.pdf https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Apple%20Pty%20Limited%2...
- f1shy 3y ago
  No. It is not! The law is for the people, for the „laymen“, not for lawers.
- gtsteve 3y ago
  Companies can quite happily hold two opposing viewpoints when it suits them. Apple's products usually have some kind of pleasing consistency but that doesn't mean their corporate dealings have to be. In a similar vein, a startup will be very happy to talk about how valuable it is, except when it comes to talking to tax authorities, whereupon suddenly their shares are borderline worthless.
  - dnissley 3y ago
    Eh, this is at least a little different. Startups talk themselves up to investors where they need to convince the investors that they will be really valuable at some point in the future. This is compared to tax authorities who are only concerned about current value, which is often essentially zero when it comes to startups.
- EricHolden12 3y ago
  But now they’ve allowed alternative app stores so why are PWAs still required?
  - beeboobaa 3y ago
    Because they have already been heavily invested in and are cross platform. Sure, Apple has already been fucking over PWAs by refusing to implement certain web standards, but they still promoted them and they are heavily used in certain industries.
formerly_proven 3y ago
So what's a Home Screen Web App in this context? Is it adding a bookmark to the home screen (you open it, and it opens in the regular full iOS Safari), or something else?

jdminhbg 3y ago

So are PWAs really popular on Android?

shuckles 3y ago
I think the advocate retort is that lack of support on iOS makes them a nonstarter for developers on all platforms. I think this argument is more of an excuse.
- dangus 3y ago
  Right, Android has something like 70% global marketshare. PWAs aren’t popular because they don’t really benefit developers/businesses. They also don’t offer any advantages in user experience over a native app. Apart from the economics, there’s no developer friction advantage since you can use something like react native and deploy anywhere. The kind of deep user information you can gather by installing a full blown app compared to a more sandboxed web app is worth way more than the 30% royalty cut.
  - kristiandupont 3y ago
    There is great value in building one product instead of three. >The kind of deep user information you can gather by installing a full blown app compared to a more sandboxed web app is worth way more than the 30% royalty cut. What kind of information is that?
    - dickersnoodle 3y ago
      Great value to whom? The only value I've ever heard of that made any sense at all was "saves me money and lets me change things and publish them faster" and that (as other commenters have said) is a developer / manager value, not a user value.
      - capr 3y ago
        Developer value is totally user value. The developer "changes things and publish them faster" for the customer, it's not a hobby.

stephenr 3y ago

> not providing similar marketing or anything for PWAs It's functionality to add an arbitrary webpage. What exactly are you expecting them to "provide"?

m463 3y ago

how do they know low usage if there is no download from apple?

overstay8930 3y ago
Because they know what’s on your Home Screen If you enable Usage analytics?
Teckla 3y ago
Most likely telemetry in iOS itself. iOS knows when users pin web pages to the home screen, and iOS knows each time a user taps on and opens those pinned web pages.
NorwegianDude 3y ago
Apple are extensively tracking users, that's how they can know.

nemothekid 3y ago

>The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple I don’t know if this ironic given that apple originally didn’t want to support native apps and gave in due to developer demand. Apple both did and didn’t want web apps

turquoisevar 3y ago

> The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple and a lack of parity This is a trite argument that hasn’t been true ever since Jen Simmons joined Apple in 2020 and changed the course of Safari significantly to the point that PWAs not only are viable, they have been given feature parity with native apps on many fronts. Simultaneously, the argument completely bypasses the fact that install rates of PWAs are abysmal on any platform. Whether it be iOS, Android or Windows. Contrary to what PWA developers, industry organizations and other stakeholders proselytize, PWAs aren’t the second coming and the next best thing since sliced bread. At least not when it comes to install rates. Edit: Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure they’re great as “websites”. Lord knows people who sell PWAs[0] love to brag about bounce rates and conversion rates and what not. But there’s a reason why you can find barely anything about install rates other than some vague statistics about individual unnamed PWAs[1] or PWA sellers[2] talking about obviously bogus 10x and 3-5x install rates, and it’s not because the PWA crowd is too shy to brag. 0: https://www.pwastats.com/ https://www.pwastats.com/ 1: https://developer.chrome.com/blog/pwa-install-features https://developer.chrome.com/blog/pwa-install-features 2: https://mobsted.com/pwa_vs_native_mobile_apps_install_rates_compare https://mobsted.com/pwa_vs_native_mobile_apps_install_rates_...

jchw 3y ago
That's kind of the point, PWAs don't have parity on any platform, but Apple's platforms are the only ones where it is being positioned as a legitimate alternative; Android has "sideloading", Windows has REGULAR loading. It doesn't matter who joined Apple when and did what, PWAs on iPhone are not like native apps, it's not even really close. It's good that this pathetic line of argument wasn't much of a deterrence for the EU. What people want isn't PWAs, they just want the kind of capabilities that computers have had for decades, including many of Apple's current computers for sale today. To be able to install an application and run it.
- turquoisevar 3y ago
  > That's kind of the point, PWAs don't have parity on any platform That’s not true, nor what I posited. PWAs have almost all the native features, if not all, depending on the platform. Plenty of “pro-PWA” people go out of their way to demonstrate this[0]. I’m talking about install rates and usage by end users in a way similar to using a native app. Whether you agree on parity or not, you seem to concede that PWAs aren’t wildly adopted the way native apps are. As such, it makes sense that Apple wouldn’t want to waste engineering resources on it by rewriting the underlying architecture, which is the topic at hand. That in and of itself ends the debate. You then go on, OT, about whether Apple should or shouldn’t position websites and PWAs as legitimate alternatives. Saying: > but Apple's platforms are the only ones where it is being positioned as a legitimate alternative Specifically, Apple states[1]: > If the App Store model and guidelines are not best for your app or business idea that’s okay, we provide Safari for a great web experience too. An alternative isn’t, as you seem to imply, an identical option; instead, it is simply understood to mean a different choice, usually a choice different from what is usual. One might say, "In the absence of a better alternative, we’ll have to proceed with our original plan.” This use in and of itself implies that one option is better than another, thus not identical. Whether something is “legitimate” or, more specifically, a “legitimate alternative” entirely depends on the person making the consideration and the value judgment they make based on their needs and wants. I might consider soda a “legitimate alternative” to coffee because I’m just looking for a beverage, whereas a different person might not deem it a legitimate alternative. After all, they are solely interested in a warm beverage. With that in mind, I consider web pages, particularly PWAs, a legitimate alternative to native apps because most native functions are available to PWAs on iOS. You might not because your need might be one of the few things PWAs can’t provide. That doesn’t make it a bad-faith argument on Apple’s part; they never claimed that PWAs are an identical option to native apps via their App Store. They offered up an alternative that can provide some, if not most, of what a native app can provide. You continue with your OT by presenting a false equivalence > Android has "sideloading", Windows has REGULAR loading. It’s a false equivalence because neither Google nor OEMs present sideloading as a legitimate alternative; it simply exists, but it’s not promoted as an alternative option. Google specifically likes to write copious amounts of words in blog posts[1] and whatnot, talking about how great PWAs are while wearing their Chrome hat. Meanwhile, the PWA experience on Android is marginally better than that on iOS, provided you use Google’s browser. Where is your indignation for that? They’re promoting PWAs harder than Apple will ever do. For that matter, Microsoft also doesn’t call “regular loading” a legitimate alternative, so again, your equivalence makes no sense. > It doesn't matter who joined Apple when and did what Of course it does; if you don’t go OT, that is. Whether Safari is or isn’t suitable for PWAs is essential to assess if PWAs are used in meaningful quantities. If someone posits that Safari doesn’t properly support PWAs when that isn’t true, like GP did, then it’s important to point that out and provide context on when that changed. It doesn’t matter to you because you’re having an entirely separate discussion. > PWAs on iPhone are not like native apps Yes, they are. As stated above, they’re not identical, but they are similar to, or if you prefer, “like” native apps. > it's not even really close This is a value judgment because it requires that you and I agree on the definition of “close.” I argue that they’re pretty close because they can do about 90% of what native apps can do. > It's good that this pathetic line of argument wasn't much of a deterrence for the EU. Let’s keep it classy and within HN guidelines. > What people want isn't PWAs Hence, the low install rate of PWAs and why it’s not weird that Apple didn’t decide to spend engineering resources on rewriting the underlying architecture for PWA installs. Again, that, in and of itself, ends the debate. > they just want the kind of capabilities that computers have had for decades, including many of Apple's current computers for sale today. To be able to install an application and run it. I’m not sure what you base this on. From here, it looks like you’re projecting your own wants onto the average iPhone user base at large. Do you have anything that expands on how many iPhone users share your vision? The commercial success of iPhones suggests that not many seem to care for this. I suppose alternatively, you could argue that the fact that Android dominates globally indicates there is a demand for this in the smartphone market[2]. Still, the obvious question then becomes why those iPhone users wouldn’t just join in Android’s dominance and switch over, particularly those who feel so strongly about this that they’d spend their time online lamenting its absence. 0: https://whatpwacando.today https://whatpwacando.today 1: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#introduction https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#int... 2: This is simplified, of course; one feature wouldn’t be the sole driver of Android’s dominance

treflop 3y ago

From Apple’s PoV, PWAs don’t earn them any money, aren’t forced through review by Apple, and decrease lock-in. There is no incentive for Apple to support PWAs.

ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
So it is now their fiduciary duty to enshitify the web? Nice system
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Enshitify ChromeOS actually.
- brookst 3y ago
  That cringe neologism refers to shifting from making money by delivering value to users to making money by exploiting the user base.

anon373839 3y ago

I recommend that everyone interested in this topic read some of the comments from PWA developers at: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=268643 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=268643 Apple’s decision is going to kill businesses and break apps used by hundreds of thousands of people in Europe, many of whom are healthcare workers delivering patient care.

EricHolden12 3y ago
Patient care apps as PWAs? Yikes.
- seba_dos1 3y ago
  Patient care apps as native blobs for selected platforms? Yikes.
- niutech 3y ago
  What's unusual with it? I even do my online banking exclusively via web browser.
- SCdF 3y ago
  What's the concern here?
- cromka 3y ago
  Eric, we need answers!
EchoChamberMan 3y ago
Apple doesn't care, unfortunately for humans. Jerome Powell of the US federal reserve knew that he would put companies out of business, and people would lose jobs, when they raised the rates. In fact, that was the goal. "In September, hiring was much greater than had been expected, with the unemployment rate staying near a half-century low. Strong hiring typically empowers workers to demand higher wages, which, in turn, can worsen inflation if their employers pass on the higher labor costs by raising their prices." https://apnews.com/article/federal-reserve-inflation-economy-prices-powell-unemployment-e64132f742d9141c28d0d79794e274b4 https://apnews.com/article/federal-reserve-inflation-economy...

scarface_74 3y ago

So why is there also low usage on Android?