14 ms·

I'm baffled my peers, who absolutely could afford to, still have no interest. These are people making 150-200k (and at my prior job, 200-400k).

toomuchtodo 3y ago
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/19/growing-share-of-childless-adults-in-u-s-dont-expect-to-ever-have-children/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/19/growing-s... https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2023/childfree-study-confirmed-April2023 https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2023/childfree-study-confirmed...
ekianjo 3y ago
[flagged]
- aaomidi 3y ago
  I don’t think it’s selfless or selfish to have or not have kids. It just is. There’s no reason to say it’s selfish tbh.
  - masklinn 3y ago
    Seems the opposite of selfish from the point of view of “world does not exactly look good and getting better”.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- maxdoop 3y ago
  How is it selfish to not have kids? Selfishness implies another party; if the kid doesn’t even exist, what is selfish?
  - meowkit 3y ago
    It can be construed either way. If you want kids, its selfish to bring the other party into existence. Life isn't all great, and you don't have a choice in whether or not you're born. If you don't want kids, its selfish because you are not supporting the society (other party) that supports your existence. If we don't have kids above the replacement rate, society doesn't continue. If you are fine with that great, but its hypocritical if you plan to continue to benefit from society in your own life.
    - maxdoop 3y ago
      What of the people that have children but those children do not contribute in any meaningful way to society? Is the implication here that every child born must somehow be a net-positive to society? I see what you're saying about the replacement rate, but I don't see how, on a smaller scale, someone choosing to not have children is a selfish act within the context of a society that is not yet below "replacement" level.
  - aantix 3y ago
    There’s literally thousands of generations prior that have made someone’s life possible. And then they wash their hands of the matter and say “nope, I’m not giving anyone else a chance at life. I’ll enjoy mine but it ends here”. That is selfishness.
    - defrost 3y ago
      And yet there are more people alive now than there has ever been. Plenty of chances for a good life out there, more than ever. What is this bizarre obsession some have with endless growth? Why is it that having more and more people is so " essential"? How many billions are enough to stabilise at?
    - kalleboo 3y ago
      What I hear from millennials is "life is suffering, our future is doomed (global warming, mass extinction, insane politics, increasing loneliness), why would I force some kid to have to grow up in this shit world just for my own fulfillment?"
sneed_chucker 3y ago
The societal norms and structures that promoted natalism are gone in western countries for much of the population. Raising kids is hard work. Ideally you have them young and live close to your family so that you have grandparents to help with childcare. But our society tells people to wait as long as possible to have kids, and to prioritize career over other things - so once people do have kids, if they ever do so, then often grandparents are too old or far away to fill that traditional role. So lots of people are stuck paying thousands a month for daycare. Just one of many ways that our system finds innovative ways to extract money out of people for things that used to be free or part of being in a community.
- jimbob45 3y ago
  Raising kids is hard work. I would bet this plays a large part - people today respect the difficulty in a way past parents previously did not. Birth rates are certainly declining but I would bet the rates of accidental infant/toddler death are down as well. That said, I personally know parents that are just taunting SIDS with the way they ignore infant sleeping best practices even though they’ve read the books to know better.
  - auggierose 3y ago
    That's just the thing, isn't it. You can try to oblige to all best practices and have zero kids in the process, or you can just have the kids and figure it out as you go. No matter the kid mortality rate, the second approach still wins.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    Societal expectation on the care for children grew immensely over the past few generations. When I was a child, parents largely just covered the physical needs and the kids were otherwise left alone to do their own thing. I remember being bored a lot, sitting in a room or roaming the streets. Nowadays there's a widespread expectation that parents should organize activities, drive their kids' education, just be way more involved in their lives.
  - silentdanni 3y ago
jwells89 3y ago
This is where the difference between affordability and safety come in. Obviously someone making that much could afford to have kids, but assuming tech hub (e.g. SF) cost of living, it’ll take a few years of salary like that to accrue enough financial padding to be certain that a chain of unfortunate events won’t put them out on the street once the cost of raising a family is added in. This is why you see a lot of high earners waiting until the last second to have kids, if they do. Financial security like you have while making good money without kids is hard to let go of.
voidfunc 3y ago
I just don't have any interest in kids. They're expensive and they require a ton of sacrifice. I'd rather travel, golf, do hobbies and generally enjoy my life. The only people that seem to want me to have babies are my parents so they can have grand kids... too which I've told them "Thank you for having me, but that's not a valid reason for me to sacrifice my life". I don't really care about the preservation of the human species. I'm going to be dead in the next 40 years or so, why should I care?
- kenjackson 3y ago
  Thank you for not having kids! That said, while they do require some sacrifice, at least for myself -- it has been by far the most enjoyable part of my life so far.
- nostrebored 3y ago
  You’re benefiting from other people’s sacrifice. Your end of life care is entirely dependent on other people having and raising functional children. And these are all pretty weak reasons — people with kids do all of the things you’ve mentioned.
  - lukevp 3y ago
    If they work for money and use it to pay the children to care for them, what difference does it make if they also have kids or not? Why would your kids have to be the ones to care for you for it to “even out”? In that argument, is daycare banned because the child is not cared for by the parents of the child? What if one of the parents dies? Is it ok to pay for help then?
    - nostrebored 3y ago
      The daycare bit is incoherent. The true cost of end of life care 1. Is already socialized in many western countries 2. Impacts human capital allocation in countries 3. Requires other people’s children to take care of you. If there are no kids, society stops functioning. 4. Will continue to rise in price as there are fewer young people When you consider that most old people do not fully fund their retirement even with existing subsidies, you can see that this is an odd proposition. Some people’s work will be valuable enough to offset their end of life care. It will be an increasingly smaller number over time given trends.
ssnistfajen 3y ago
Birthrate by income levels is approaching a dumbbell distribution in industrialized nations. Lower income people have kids due to the lack of options, while ultra-high income people have kids due to the need for heirs (and they can afford to completely offload childcare to dedicated high-quality staff). Those in the middle are stuck because having children is a net negative to the continuation of career advancement, especially women due the unavoidable need for parental leave. The commitmments required to raising children, especially newborns, will disrupt travel plans which is a significant component of the typical middle class lifestyle. Childcare will also cost a significant sum of money, sometimes as much as mortgage payments in high CoL areas, without completely relieving the parents of their duties.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > without completely relieving the parents of their duties. That's an underappreciated point. Kids in daycares and kindergartens get sick a lot. Those places are pathogen swapping grounds. Especially early on, you may have your kid 2 weeks in, 2 weeks out on average. And the "on average" is a killer, too - you can't schedule when your kid will get sick, so you're effectively on-call all the time anyway, and have to have a job compatible with you just taking off in the middle of the day and getting a day or two of leave, on the spot, at random.
mise_en_place 3y ago
My net worth is north of 5 or 6 million now, on a good day. My salary is mid 5 figures with TC. You just happened to hit a proverbial jackpot, in another sense. You don't think I haven't had my share of exes? You don't think I've ever tried to settle down? You had blind luck in your romantic endeavors. But please don't wear that as some sort of weird badge of honor, it cheapens the whole thing, in my honest opinion.
- WXLCKNO 3y ago
  Do you mean mid 6 figures
kelnos 3y ago
I could absolutely afford to have children, but have chosen not to. The main reason is that I just don't feel "called" to be a parent. When I think about (and see, from others I know who have kids) the amount of work, and complete shift in lifestyle, it takes to raise a child, I get completely turned off by the idea. If I had a kid, I'm sure I'd love them, and derive joy from them, but I don't believe the trade off is worth it. Maybe I'll end up being wrong about that, but I'd rather grow old and regret not having kids than regret having them. I think people shouldn't have kids unless they are really sure they want to be a parent. Anything less sounds like a big mistake. Anyhow, have you actually talked to your childless peers about this? Hopefully there are at least some with whom you feel comfortable bringing up this kind of topic, with people who will give you a thoughtful, non-judgmental answer. I think you might find that they all have a variety of reasons for not having kids, and money may not be a big factor.
- geff82 3y ago
  "The amount of work".... oh dear. As if caring for other people is only work. From what will you get distracted by having other people around you (kids)? From Instragram? Cycling? Reading books? What intensely important things do you have to do that deserve no distraction? Having kids is not work. It is not only joy either. It is just the natural way of being a human. The - natural - way - of - being - a - human!!! Natural, like sleeping. Eating. Sure, sometimes kids stress you. But then, nature has made sure that you'll mostly remember the good moments. You don't have to be overly perfect to have kids. Just don't be an overly bad person and talk to them often. Whatever environment they get born in: they will be ok with it. You don't need to be grandiose. Do what you naturally can, what you enjoy. And they'll enjoy it. Humans are made to adapt to having kids. Kids are made to adapt to non-perfect parents. Just avoid the obviously bad stuff and all is good. Your life is good. You looking back on your life will be good.
  - surgical_fire 3y ago
    > "The amount of work".... oh dear. As if caring for other people is only work. From what will you get distracted by having other people around you (kids)? From Instragram? Cycling? Reading books? What if they prefer Instagram, Cycling and Reading Books rather than raising children? Why are you so concerned about other people's lifestyles? Are you going to pay their rent or help them with their chores? I decided to have a child, and it was a conscious decision I made with my partner, fully aware that our previous lifestyle would be no more. Deciding not to have a child would have been equally as valid. I find it funny that this discussion elicits so much passion from people that decided to have children. Do you need validation from other people to justify your own decisions? Whenever I am asked about it, I say that you should not have children unless you are absolutely certain that you want a child in your life, and that your life is stable enough to accommodate one. The world sucks even in the best of times. To condemn someone to existence when their lives will be made more difficult is selfish and cruel.
hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
It could simply be that child rearing and career success are substitute goods, at least for a plurality of the population. I don't like admitting that, but it seems reasonable to suspect.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/19/growing-share-of-childless-adults-in-u-s-dont-expect-to-ever-have-children/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/19/growing-s... https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2023/childfree-study-confirmed-April2023 https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2023/childfree-study-confirmed...

ekianjo 3y ago

[flagged]

aaomidi 3y ago
I don’t think it’s selfless or selfish to have or not have kids. It just is. There’s no reason to say it’s selfish tbh.
- masklinn 3y ago
  Seems the opposite of selfish from the point of view of “world does not exactly look good and getting better”.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
maxdoop 3y ago
How is it selfish to not have kids? Selfishness implies another party; if the kid doesn’t even exist, what is selfish?
- meowkit 3y ago
  It can be construed either way. If you want kids, its selfish to bring the other party into existence. Life isn't all great, and you don't have a choice in whether or not you're born. If you don't want kids, its selfish because you are not supporting the society (other party) that supports your existence. If we don't have kids above the replacement rate, society doesn't continue. If you are fine with that great, but its hypocritical if you plan to continue to benefit from society in your own life.
  - maxdoop 3y ago
    What of the people that have children but those children do not contribute in any meaningful way to society? Is the implication here that every child born must somehow be a net-positive to society? I see what you're saying about the replacement rate, but I don't see how, on a smaller scale, someone choosing to not have children is a selfish act within the context of a society that is not yet below "replacement" level.
- aantix 3y ago
  There’s literally thousands of generations prior that have made someone’s life possible. And then they wash their hands of the matter and say “nope, I’m not giving anyone else a chance at life. I’ll enjoy mine but it ends here”. That is selfishness.
  - defrost 3y ago
    And yet there are more people alive now than there has ever been. Plenty of chances for a good life out there, more than ever. What is this bizarre obsession some have with endless growth? Why is it that having more and more people is so " essential"? How many billions are enough to stabilise at?
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    What I hear from millennials is "life is suffering, our future is doomed (global warming, mass extinction, insane politics, increasing loneliness), why would I force some kid to have to grow up in this shit world just for my own fulfillment?"

sneed_chucker 3y ago

The societal norms and structures that promoted natalism are gone in western countries for much of the population. Raising kids is hard work. Ideally you have them young and live close to your family so that you have grandparents to help with childcare. But our society tells people to wait as long as possible to have kids, and to prioritize career over other things - so once people do have kids, if they ever do so, then often grandparents are too old or far away to fill that traditional role. So lots of people are stuck paying thousands a month for daycare. Just one of many ways that our system finds innovative ways to extract money out of people for things that used to be free or part of being in a community.

jimbob45 3y ago
Raising kids is hard work. I would bet this plays a large part - people today respect the difficulty in a way past parents previously did not. Birth rates are certainly declining but I would bet the rates of accidental infant/toddler death are down as well. That said, I personally know parents that are just taunting SIDS with the way they ignore infant sleeping best practices even though they’ve read the books to know better.
- auggierose 3y ago
  That's just the thing, isn't it. You can try to oblige to all best practices and have zero kids in the process, or you can just have the kids and figure it out as you go. No matter the kid mortality rate, the second approach still wins.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  Societal expectation on the care for children grew immensely over the past few generations. When I was a child, parents largely just covered the physical needs and the kids were otherwise left alone to do their own thing. I remember being bored a lot, sitting in a room or roaming the streets. Nowadays there's a widespread expectation that parents should organize activities, drive their kids' education, just be way more involved in their lives.
- silentdanni 3y ago

jwells89 3y ago

This is where the difference between affordability and safety come in. Obviously someone making that much could afford to have kids, but assuming tech hub (e.g. SF) cost of living, it’ll take a few years of salary like that to accrue enough financial padding to be certain that a chain of unfortunate events won’t put them out on the street once the cost of raising a family is added in. This is why you see a lot of high earners waiting until the last second to have kids, if they do. Financial security like you have while making good money without kids is hard to let go of.

voidfunc 3y ago

I just don't have any interest in kids. They're expensive and they require a ton of sacrifice. I'd rather travel, golf, do hobbies and generally enjoy my life. The only people that seem to want me to have babies are my parents so they can have grand kids... too which I've told them "Thank you for having me, but that's not a valid reason for me to sacrifice my life". I don't really care about the preservation of the human species. I'm going to be dead in the next 40 years or so, why should I care?

kenjackson 3y ago
Thank you for not having kids! That said, while they do require some sacrifice, at least for myself -- it has been by far the most enjoyable part of my life so far.
nostrebored 3y ago
You’re benefiting from other people’s sacrifice. Your end of life care is entirely dependent on other people having and raising functional children. And these are all pretty weak reasons — people with kids do all of the things you’ve mentioned.
- lukevp 3y ago
  If they work for money and use it to pay the children to care for them, what difference does it make if they also have kids or not? Why would your kids have to be the ones to care for you for it to “even out”? In that argument, is daycare banned because the child is not cared for by the parents of the child? What if one of the parents dies? Is it ok to pay for help then?
  - nostrebored 3y ago
    The daycare bit is incoherent. The true cost of end of life care 1. Is already socialized in many western countries 2. Impacts human capital allocation in countries 3. Requires other people’s children to take care of you. If there are no kids, society stops functioning. 4. Will continue to rise in price as there are fewer young people When you consider that most old people do not fully fund their retirement even with existing subsidies, you can see that this is an odd proposition. Some people’s work will be valuable enough to offset their end of life care. It will be an increasingly smaller number over time given trends.

ssnistfajen 3y ago

Birthrate by income levels is approaching a dumbbell distribution in industrialized nations. Lower income people have kids due to the lack of options, while ultra-high income people have kids due to the need for heirs (and they can afford to completely offload childcare to dedicated high-quality staff). Those in the middle are stuck because having children is a net negative to the continuation of career advancement, especially women due the unavoidable need for parental leave. The commitmments required to raising children, especially newborns, will disrupt travel plans which is a significant component of the typical middle class lifestyle. Childcare will also cost a significant sum of money, sometimes as much as mortgage payments in high CoL areas, without completely relieving the parents of their duties.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
> without completely relieving the parents of their duties. That's an underappreciated point. Kids in daycares and kindergartens get sick a lot. Those places are pathogen swapping grounds. Especially early on, you may have your kid 2 weeks in, 2 weeks out on average. And the "on average" is a killer, too - you can't schedule when your kid will get sick, so you're effectively on-call all the time anyway, and have to have a job compatible with you just taking off in the middle of the day and getting a day or two of leave, on the spot, at random.

mise_en_place 3y ago

My net worth is north of 5 or 6 million now, on a good day. My salary is mid 5 figures with TC. You just happened to hit a proverbial jackpot, in another sense. You don't think I haven't had my share of exes? You don't think I've ever tried to settle down? You had blind luck in your romantic endeavors. But please don't wear that as some sort of weird badge of honor, it cheapens the whole thing, in my honest opinion.

WXLCKNO 3y ago
Do you mean mid 6 figures

kelnos 3y ago

I could absolutely afford to have children, but have chosen not to. The main reason is that I just don't feel "called" to be a parent. When I think about (and see, from others I know who have kids) the amount of work, and complete shift in lifestyle, it takes to raise a child, I get completely turned off by the idea. If I had a kid, I'm sure I'd love them, and derive joy from them, but I don't believe the trade off is worth it. Maybe I'll end up being wrong about that, but I'd rather grow old and regret not having kids than regret having them. I think people shouldn't have kids unless they are really sure they want to be a parent. Anything less sounds like a big mistake. Anyhow, have you actually talked to your childless peers about this? Hopefully there are at least some with whom you feel comfortable bringing up this kind of topic, with people who will give you a thoughtful, non-judgmental answer. I think you might find that they all have a variety of reasons for not having kids, and money may not be a big factor.

geff82 3y ago
"The amount of work".... oh dear. As if caring for other people is only work. From what will you get distracted by having other people around you (kids)? From Instragram? Cycling? Reading books? What intensely important things do you have to do that deserve no distraction? Having kids is not work. It is not only joy either. It is just the natural way of being a human. The - natural - way - of - being - a - human!!! Natural, like sleeping. Eating. Sure, sometimes kids stress you. But then, nature has made sure that you'll mostly remember the good moments. You don't have to be overly perfect to have kids. Just don't be an overly bad person and talk to them often. Whatever environment they get born in: they will be ok with it. You don't need to be grandiose. Do what you naturally can, what you enjoy. And they'll enjoy it. Humans are made to adapt to having kids. Kids are made to adapt to non-perfect parents. Just avoid the obviously bad stuff and all is good. Your life is good. You looking back on your life will be good.
- surgical_fire 3y ago
  > "The amount of work".... oh dear. As if caring for other people is only work. From what will you get distracted by having other people around you (kids)? From Instragram? Cycling? Reading books? What if they prefer Instagram, Cycling and Reading Books rather than raising children? Why are you so concerned about other people's lifestyles? Are you going to pay their rent or help them with their chores? I decided to have a child, and it was a conscious decision I made with my partner, fully aware that our previous lifestyle would be no more. Deciding not to have a child would have been equally as valid. I find it funny that this discussion elicits so much passion from people that decided to have children. Do you need validation from other people to justify your own decisions? Whenever I am asked about it, I say that you should not have children unless you are absolutely certain that you want a child in your life, and that your life is stable enough to accommodate one. The world sucks even in the best of times. To condemn someone to existence when their lives will be made more difficult is selfish and cruel.

hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago

It could simply be that child rearing and career success are substitute goods, at least for a plurality of the population. I don't like admitting that, but it seems reasonable to suspect.