6 ms·

Because most of the great intellectual works exist in these "legacy form factors."

by Extropy_ 3y ago

arnaudsm 3y ago
Of the past yes, but what about the present and future?
- netsharc 3y ago
  It's all on Instagram and TikTok! /S
- olddustytrail 3y ago
  Well, can you name a computer game that is a great artistic work? There are many that are good, but I can't say there are any that are on a par with, say, "The Lord of the Rings" or "War and Peace" or "1984". I'd love to hear of one that was though.
  - TheCleric 3y ago
    I agree with you for the most part, but I do think there are games that are truly works of art. That Dragon Cancer immediately comes to mind.
  - shikshake 3y ago
    There are many innovative and critically acclaimed titles in the independent game scene, though they are obviously judged on different criteria by taking advantage of the interactive medium. Inside, Disco Elysium, and Kentucky Route Zero, just to name a few. Mainstream gaming is still getting there, but to me titles like The Last of Us Part 2 are on par with classic HBO shows like Six Feet Under.
  - pb7 3y ago
    There are so many. Red Dead Redemption 2 is one great artistic work. If you haven't played it, you haven't experienced the peak of a massive wildly recognized medium. Last of Us (the show) was essentially copied verbatim from the video game, scene for scene. On the entire opposite side of the complexity spectrum, both Limbo and Inside are great artistic works.
  - guitarbill 3y ago
    Come on, that's a lame argument and completely subjective. What makes LotR a "great artistic work"? What makes Stardew Valley not a "great artistic work"? Just like some books, films, or other art can resonate and have a profound impact on a person, so can video games.
    - olddustytrail 3y ago
      > What makes LotR a "great artistic work"? That's a great question. It's a mixture of technical skill and intellectual depth. For example, throughout Scotland placenames are a mixture of old Gaelic, modern Gaelic and Norse, and then there are the Anglicised versions on top. So learning what placenames mean is something I did in school and it's a fascinating subject. So when Gildor is talking with Frodo, and mentions the "...Branduin, that you call the Brandywine..." (quote from memory; might not be correct), that's exactly what happens with placenames. It's that level of depth (in all aspects, this is just an example) that makes it a great work. You can read more on just the name of a river at https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Baranduin https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Baranduin Enjoyment of art is, as you say, totally subjective, but anyone who's artistic can generally identify when something is a great work even if they don't personally like it. Edit: if you like this kind of stuff, there are also some cool blog posts on the logistics of the Battle of Gonder: https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondor/ https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondo...
      - BoiledCabbage 3y ago
        LotR is not a "great artistic work". It's beloved by many (myself included), but the fact that it's detailed doesn't make it a great artistic work. As literature goes it has tons of shortcomings.
        olddustytrail 3y ago
        Everything has shortcomings but as a work of literature lotr is very obviously a great artistic work and the fact that you don't know that tells me immediately that you've never produced anything worthwhile. Tell me I'm wrong.
  - arnaudsm 3y ago
    Posterity only remembers the most acclaimed pieces, there are plenty of airport novels no one remembers and that have nothing to envy to modern Tiktok.
    - olddustytrail 3y ago
      Yes, there are. I made a deliberate decision about 10 years ago to only read good novels just because I'd read so many terrible ones! But I'm hoping my question will lead to some good narrative game recommendations.
  - selimthegrim 3y ago
    Cosmology of Kyoto, according to Roger Ebert.
    - olddustytrail 3y ago
      Looking about, that does sound fascinating. Seems like the kind of game that could have a modern remake.
  - Kon5ole 3y ago
    I have read many books and seen many movies that I feel are worse artistic works than the best games, but I also think it's a hard comparison to make. There is no music that compares to "War and peace" or paintings like "1984", nor is the movie "Alien" like any book. Describing H R Gigers monster design with words will not have the same artistic impact. I think different creations can be be great artistic works on entirely incomparable axes.
  - Tarsul 3y ago
    please play gorogoa for an artsy, moving puzzle game. (for me personally the benchmark is the last express, but i guess generally reviews are mixed but please take a look, too)
- Swizec 3y ago
  The depth of a book is vastly different than the 10min youtube video summarizing said book. I’ve tried both modern and legacy form factors and honestly I’m on camp book more and more as the years go on. The modern stuff feels like total fluff compared to a book, which in turn feel like total fluff compared to the academic papers it is based on. These days I would rather spend 2 hours reading a good book or paper than 10 minutes watching an engagement-optimized edutainment video. And for the really good stuff you have to go even more legacy – conversation with an expert. A medium older even than books. That’s where you get the stuff that hasn’t made it into papers yet, let alone the downstream half-digested edutainment stuff.
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    > The depth of a book is vastly different than the 10min youtube video summarizing said book. Yep, it appears that the deepest format we have today is long-form hypertext. Often containing a few 10min videos itself. Some people do equate those with books, but it's far from unanimous.
    - Swizec 3y ago
      Hey if you’re getting the depth of a book, it’s a book no matter the format. My objection is to surface level edutainment formats that feed your brain chicken nuggets but trick you into thinking it was steak. Lots of surface level books that are the length of a book and the value of a 5min tiktok too.
  - rurp 3y ago
    I got back into reading books after a long hiatus and was pleasantly surprised by how much I missed them. The depth of thought and nuance is just totally different than an article or youtube video. I still consume plenty of modern media but feel like I get more out of books on average. For anyone who wants to get back into reading books my advice is to start with whatever sounds fun. A lot of people fall into a trap of feeling like they need to read something useful or serious and just get turned off to the idea. But reading lighter books are still great and provide a lot that you won't get from tv and similar mediums. Over time your interests will evolve naturally into new areas.
- Kon5ole 3y ago
  I think books are still the best way for a single mind to communicate complex ideas. Movies and games are teamwork, many ideas from several people (for better and worse). Maybe generative AI will get to the point where a single author can create a comic, movie or game with similar depths as that of books but it hasn't yet.
voidfunc 3y ago
I can read a quick Wikipedia article and get the gist of them pretty quickly then what's the point? If you enjoy reading that's one thing but there's not much point otherwise.
- ggpsv 3y ago
  Sorry but isn't this disingenuous? Reading a summary of the book in Wikipedia/Blinkist/ChatGPT is definitely not the same as the reading book. Sure, you may grasp at the central idea or argument superficially, but to understand it fully, with its caveats and nuances, and overarching context? You can regurgitate but not assimilate.
  - voidfunc 3y ago
    I dont think so. For "great works" all that stuff has been covered somewhere if you really care. You're putting way too much faith into people's intelligence (or projecting your own onto them) if you think people are picking up the nuanced bits just by reading. Which still to the thread starts point. All of that stuff could be captured in a diff medium and to my point if it's worth capturing in the first place can be summarized and the additional stuff you're mentioning written as bullet points.
    - lovecg 3y ago
      Reading a good book is a closest approximation we have to actually meeting the author in person. There are books that I read years ago that had such a big emotional impact they probably affected my personality in some way. I barely remember a single youtube video I watched last week.
      - praisewhitey 3y ago
        This is simply not true. I've met writers and they're exactly like they are in podcasts/youtube videos and nothing like their writing would suggest.
    - eszed 3y ago
ajsnigrutin 3y ago
But a lot of modern knowledge is in a form of youtube videos and a lot of trash is in a form of cheap airport-kiosk books.
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  > knowledge is in a form of youtube videos Hardly it almost always a shortened more approachable summary of something described in a book. Also (IMHO) videos are a horrible format for transferring knowledge, it’s slow AF compared to reading and impossible to search, you have to consume it mostly sequentially
  - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
    Sure, but if when are you going to open a book on SNES (super nintendo)? For comparison, here is a very interesting video series for anyone with at least some programming knowledge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57ibhDU2SAI&list=PLHQ0utQyFw5KCcj1ljIhExH_lvGwfn6GV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57ibhDU2SAI&list=PLHQ0utQyFw... Sure, you could buy a book about snes (not even sure if any good ones exist) and read about that... but you're not that interested into the topic, because it's something old and not something you'll actually do... but here's a 6 minute video, that you'll probably watch... and if it's interesting, you'll go down a playlist and see "how thing were done" "back then" and learn something new. Ever heard of Tefifon music player? Neither have I, until i saw the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqfVS6ahArs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqfVS6ahArs ... i would have never bought a book on ancient music players, but I learned something new by watching a short video. Ever heard of purple gold? Neither have I, again, until the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Pcp944sRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Pcp944sRI Compare this to eg. book bestsellers: https://www.nytimes.com/books/best-sellers/combined-print-and-e-book-fiction/ https://www.nytimes.com/books/best-sellers/combined-print-an... Sometimes all you need is a summary, you're not a chemist, SNES programmer or an old music player collector, but you still learn a lot, and all those things are topics, where you just don't buy a book, because th 10, 20 minute video covers all that you need and want to know.
    - 3y ago

Because most of the great intellectual works exist in these "legacy form factors."

arnaudsm 3y ago

Of the past yes, but what about the present and future?

netsharc 3y ago
It's all on Instagram and TikTok! /S
olddustytrail 3y ago
Well, can you name a computer game that is a great artistic work? There are many that are good, but I can't say there are any that are on a par with, say, "The Lord of the Rings" or "War and Peace" or "1984". I'd love to hear of one that was though.
- TheCleric 3y ago
  I agree with you for the most part, but I do think there are games that are truly works of art. That Dragon Cancer immediately comes to mind.
- shikshake 3y ago
  There are many innovative and critically acclaimed titles in the independent game scene, though they are obviously judged on different criteria by taking advantage of the interactive medium. Inside, Disco Elysium, and Kentucky Route Zero, just to name a few. Mainstream gaming is still getting there, but to me titles like The Last of Us Part 2 are on par with classic HBO shows like Six Feet Under.
- pb7 3y ago
  There are so many. Red Dead Redemption 2 is one great artistic work. If you haven't played it, you haven't experienced the peak of a massive wildly recognized medium. Last of Us (the show) was essentially copied verbatim from the video game, scene for scene. On the entire opposite side of the complexity spectrum, both Limbo and Inside are great artistic works.
- guitarbill 3y ago
  Come on, that's a lame argument and completely subjective. What makes LotR a "great artistic work"? What makes Stardew Valley not a "great artistic work"? Just like some books, films, or other art can resonate and have a profound impact on a person, so can video games.
  - olddustytrail 3y ago
    > What makes LotR a "great artistic work"? That's a great question. It's a mixture of technical skill and intellectual depth. For example, throughout Scotland placenames are a mixture of old Gaelic, modern Gaelic and Norse, and then there are the Anglicised versions on top. So learning what placenames mean is something I did in school and it's a fascinating subject. So when Gildor is talking with Frodo, and mentions the "...Branduin, that you call the Brandywine..." (quote from memory; might not be correct), that's exactly what happens with placenames. It's that level of depth (in all aspects, this is just an example) that makes it a great work. You can read more on just the name of a river at https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Baranduin https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Baranduin Enjoyment of art is, as you say, totally subjective, but anyone who's artistic can generally identify when something is a great work even if they don't personally like it. Edit: if you like this kind of stuff, there are also some cool blog posts on the logistics of the Battle of Gonder: https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondor/ https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondo...
    - BoiledCabbage 3y ago
      LotR is not a "great artistic work". It's beloved by many (myself included), but the fact that it's detailed doesn't make it a great artistic work. As literature goes it has tons of shortcomings.
      - olddustytrail 3y ago
        Everything has shortcomings but as a work of literature lotr is very obviously a great artistic work and the fact that you don't know that tells me immediately that you've never produced anything worthwhile. Tell me I'm wrong.
- arnaudsm 3y ago
  Posterity only remembers the most acclaimed pieces, there are plenty of airport novels no one remembers and that have nothing to envy to modern Tiktok.
  - olddustytrail 3y ago
    Yes, there are. I made a deliberate decision about 10 years ago to only read good novels just because I'd read so many terrible ones! But I'm hoping my question will lead to some good narrative game recommendations.
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  Cosmology of Kyoto, according to Roger Ebert.
  - olddustytrail 3y ago
    Looking about, that does sound fascinating. Seems like the kind of game that could have a modern remake.
- Kon5ole 3y ago
  I have read many books and seen many movies that I feel are worse artistic works than the best games, but I also think it's a hard comparison to make. There is no music that compares to "War and peace" or paintings like "1984", nor is the movie "Alien" like any book. Describing H R Gigers monster design with words will not have the same artistic impact. I think different creations can be be great artistic works on entirely incomparable axes.
- Tarsul 3y ago
  please play gorogoa for an artsy, moving puzzle game. (for me personally the benchmark is the last express, but i guess generally reviews are mixed but please take a look, too)
Swizec 3y ago
The depth of a book is vastly different than the 10min youtube video summarizing said book. I’ve tried both modern and legacy form factors and honestly I’m on camp book more and more as the years go on. The modern stuff feels like total fluff compared to a book, which in turn feel like total fluff compared to the academic papers it is based on. These days I would rather spend 2 hours reading a good book or paper than 10 minutes watching an engagement-optimized edutainment video. And for the really good stuff you have to go even more legacy – conversation with an expert. A medium older even than books. That’s where you get the stuff that hasn’t made it into papers yet, let alone the downstream half-digested edutainment stuff.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  > The depth of a book is vastly different than the 10min youtube video summarizing said book. Yep, it appears that the deepest format we have today is long-form hypertext. Often containing a few 10min videos itself. Some people do equate those with books, but it's far from unanimous.
  - Swizec 3y ago
    Hey if you’re getting the depth of a book, it’s a book no matter the format. My objection is to surface level edutainment formats that feed your brain chicken nuggets but trick you into thinking it was steak. Lots of surface level books that are the length of a book and the value of a 5min tiktok too.
- rurp 3y ago
  I got back into reading books after a long hiatus and was pleasantly surprised by how much I missed them. The depth of thought and nuance is just totally different than an article or youtube video. I still consume plenty of modern media but feel like I get more out of books on average. For anyone who wants to get back into reading books my advice is to start with whatever sounds fun. A lot of people fall into a trap of feeling like they need to read something useful or serious and just get turned off to the idea. But reading lighter books are still great and provide a lot that you won't get from tv and similar mediums. Over time your interests will evolve naturally into new areas.
Kon5ole 3y ago
I think books are still the best way for a single mind to communicate complex ideas. Movies and games are teamwork, many ideas from several people (for better and worse). Maybe generative AI will get to the point where a single author can create a comic, movie or game with similar depths as that of books but it hasn't yet.

voidfunc 3y ago

I can read a quick Wikipedia article and get the gist of them pretty quickly then what's the point? If you enjoy reading that's one thing but there's not much point otherwise.

ggpsv 3y ago
Sorry but isn't this disingenuous? Reading a summary of the book in Wikipedia/Blinkist/ChatGPT is definitely not the same as the reading book. Sure, you may grasp at the central idea or argument superficially, but to understand it fully, with its caveats and nuances, and overarching context? You can regurgitate but not assimilate.
- voidfunc 3y ago
  I dont think so. For "great works" all that stuff has been covered somewhere if you really care. You're putting way too much faith into people's intelligence (or projecting your own onto them) if you think people are picking up the nuanced bits just by reading. Which still to the thread starts point. All of that stuff could be captured in a diff medium and to my point if it's worth capturing in the first place can be summarized and the additional stuff you're mentioning written as bullet points.
  - lovecg 3y ago
    Reading a good book is a closest approximation we have to actually meeting the author in person. There are books that I read years ago that had such a big emotional impact they probably affected my personality in some way. I barely remember a single youtube video I watched last week.
    - praisewhitey 3y ago
      This is simply not true. I've met writers and they're exactly like they are in podcasts/youtube videos and nothing like their writing would suggest.
  - eszed 3y ago

ajsnigrutin 3y ago

But a lot of modern knowledge is in a form of youtube videos and a lot of trash is in a form of cheap airport-kiosk books.

ffgjgf1 3y ago
> knowledge is in a form of youtube videos Hardly it almost always a shortened more approachable summary of something described in a book. Also (IMHO) videos are a horrible format for transferring knowledge, it’s slow AF compared to reading and impossible to search, you have to consume it mostly sequentially
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  Sure, but if when are you going to open a book on SNES (super nintendo)? For comparison, here is a very interesting video series for anyone with at least some programming knowledge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57ibhDU2SAI&list=PLHQ0utQyFw5KCcj1ljIhExH_lvGwfn6GV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57ibhDU2SAI&list=PLHQ0utQyFw... Sure, you could buy a book about snes (not even sure if any good ones exist) and read about that... but you're not that interested into the topic, because it's something old and not something you'll actually do... but here's a 6 minute video, that you'll probably watch... and if it's interesting, you'll go down a playlist and see "how thing were done" "back then" and learn something new. Ever heard of Tefifon music player? Neither have I, until i saw the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqfVS6ahArs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqfVS6ahArs ... i would have never bought a book on ancient music players, but I learned something new by watching a short video. Ever heard of purple gold? Neither have I, again, until the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Pcp944sRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Pcp944sRI Compare this to eg. book bestsellers: https://www.nytimes.com/books/best-sellers/combined-print-and-e-book-fiction/ https://www.nytimes.com/books/best-sellers/combined-print-an... Sometimes all you need is a summary, you're not a chemist, SNES programmer or an old music player collector, but you still learn a lot, and all those things are topics, where you just don't buy a book, because th 10, 20 minute video covers all that you need and want to know.
  - 3y ago