14 ms·

The UK has completely abolished fees (I think) for tenants - I am a reluctant landlord - and I completely agree with that, the power asymmetry in finding housin

by vr46 3y ago

The UK has completely abolished fees (I think) for tenants - I am a reluctant landlord - and I completely agree with that, the power asymmetry in finding housing is already bad enough without allowing blank-cheque negotiations. In my section of Germany, housing is even worse with rent caps and tenant rights, plus a lack of housing. Tenants are hard to move on, so landlords are painfully cautious about getting the right tenants - and there isn't a lot of money to maintain properties either, it seems. Our place has the worst decor and electrics, terrible ventilation and mould. And I think we're at the high end. Systems geared up for incumbents, like "council houses for life" in London, ought to be sunset, just to get housing moving again. I don't think rent control works well, but I don't think open market rent works either. Anything critical with a limited supply needs to be externally regulated in ways that keep the wheels moving.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
That sounds terrible. What "section of Germany" are you in? Berlin?
- vr46 3y ago
  Hamburg. The previous tenants left a mess, the landlord put in a new kitchen for us, new fences around the boundary, new back patio tiles. Ventilation is a problem as extractor fans need replacing and I’ve replaced a bunch of electric switches and sockets, but no fun. Classmates with income only from the job centre are unable to find a place to live, although that’s hardly better anywhere. In London the rents are astronomical and competitive but the cycle of finding, viewing, renting and moving is still running fine. In Hamburg people can’t even find apartments for rent.
  - belter 3y ago
    The landlord put in a new kitchen for you? When I lived in several different towns in Germany every single flat was rented without kitchen...I bought more than one and had to dismount the kitchen when leaving. One of German absurdities I don't miss... "Apartments don’t come with kitchens in Germany" - https://alisajordanwrites.com/2018/08/06/apartments-dont-come-with-kitchens-in-germany/ https://alisajordanwrites.com/2018/08/06/apartments-dont-com...
    - morsch 3y ago
      I agree that it's dumb to have to buy a new kitchen when moving in (and tear it down when moving out). In most cases, though, you talk to the next person that moves in and, depending on the quality of the kitchen and social factors, sell it to them or just give it away. That is, when it's not part of the lease, which does exist in Germany, even if it's not mandatory. Student housing, for example, is usually fully equipped.
      - belter 3y ago
        Yes of course I talked to the new tenant. And guess what they replied? ;-)... ..."We already have our kitchen we had to take out form our previous accommodation!"
    - vr46 3y ago
      Yes, well, the kitchen - AND ALL THE LIGHTS IN THE HOUSE - were removed by the previous tenants. This is so fucking stupid it deserves a dedicated room in the Museum of The Stupid. Kitchens are so fitted to the physical rooms they are in, they are basically part of the house like walls, floors, ceilings and doors. It's totally mad, isn't it!
      - lifestyleguru 3y ago
        Argument I heard every time while in Germany "some people like to take the kitchen with them"... apparently they take all these fitted furniture and do something with it. Then yeah, lightning and sometimes even the flooring.... first days in new place in absolute darkness. Still the deposit is three months in case you damage... what exactly? ADSL internet from Vodafone or some other scum is the ultimate blow.
        vr46 3y ago
        Germany must have inspired whoever wrote the Richard Pryor film, 'Moving' when he arrives in Boise to find that the sellers of his new house were not kidding when they said "we're taking everything with us"... And yes, darkness, there was literally no light whatsoever in either of the bathrooms unless our next-door neighbour helped out with some basic light fittings he had kicking around...
  - ensignavenger 3y ago
    So are you a landlord, a tenant or both? Are you a UK lanlord.living in Hamburg and renting?
nixass 3y ago
[flagged]
ethanbond 3y ago
Land Value Tax: Make it financially unfeasible to speculate, to withhold units from the market, and to withhold unused land from the market. Let prices freely fluctuate with the market. Increases in rent derived from externalities (i.e. Amazon HQ2 setting up shop nearby or a new subway station) go back into public coffers, while increases in rent derived from landlord actions (i.e. renovations, building bigger, better units that command higher prices) go directly into their pockets.
- zemvpferreira 3y ago
  I'm a fan as long as we also continue building. Build, build, build as long as demand is there.
  - kurthr 3y ago
    They did that in China and housing prices are still sky high. As long as "number go up" is the belief in housing you'll have speculators and empty housing. Now you could tax empty (non-rented dwellings without a declared tax residence) and that would lower prices and increase supply.
    - zemvpferreira 3y ago
      Fair enough though there's a lot more behind China's construction boom than just market forces. Property taxes + ease of building still seems like a panacea for the rest of the world to me.
- username332211 3y ago
  The end result: By the end of year 5 of it's implementation, the local tax authority shall determine the land owned by politically connected investment funds is virtually worthless, while ordinary citizen's derive virtually no value from any improvements they construct on their properties. Where this love for arbitrary taxation comes from? How much have you donated to your mayor's electoral campaign? Do you golf with aldermen?
- conductr 3y ago
_cenw 3y ago
Social housing in Germany is asinine. The government heavily co-finances new construction for a subset of flats being offered as affordable housing, but with a 30 year limit to these restrictions. It's a subsidy for the rich. You break even, and you get some very cheap real estate in 30 years. The government should've just done the construction itself. A lot of social housing is currently reaching that 30 year mark, and it's barely being replaced. And costs for new constructions simply don't make a lot of sense right now, also affected by increasing building standards - which also prevent conversion of much vacant commercial space.
- thriftwy 3y ago
  Why not have private companies build and sell apartments? https://youtu.be/mav_Y0ZcVpw https://youtu.be/mav_Y0ZcVpw showing a random purchasable apartment in Russia.
  - scythe 3y ago
    Condos are politically caught between a rock and a hard place: leftists who think they turn cities into playgrounds for the rich, and reactionaries who think the government is trying to force everyone into multi-unit buildings. Ownership is nice for the long term, but sometimes people just aren't ready for that. Some careers nowadays involve several training periods which happen in multiple different cities and stretch out for 8-12 years. Sometimes to get a good job in a less dynamic city you are better off working in SF/NY for a few years after school even if that's not where you want to end up. Maybe people learn faster that way. Retirees may be better off renting if they don't want to do maintenance and may only live there for a decade before moving into assisted living.
    - thriftwy 3y ago
      When you need to move in temporarily, you can always rent a flat from a person just like yourself who bought one and is renting it out individually. In the absense of rent control and abundance of constructions, offers are plentiful.
- 3y ago
miki123211 3y ago
Poland has a system where it's basically impossible to evict anybody if you rent under the standard rules. However, there exists a special type of contract which allows for quick and painless eviction, but where the tenant must provide proof that they have a place to stay at, either a deed to a property they own or a declaration from somebody who is willing to take them in. A lot of landlords insist on this type of contract, which makes it much harder to find housing for foreigners and those who decided to cut contact with their families. Landlords basically have no other option, we don't really have a credit score system like the US does, so it's much harder to verify how trustworthy you are. There are agencies that can tell you if somebody's currently in debt or not, but as far as I'm aware, somebody with no credit history is basically indistinguishable from somebody with "good" history.
- bombcar 3y ago
  These kinds of things are side-effects of "tenant's rights" laws. Some may consider it the end-goal, to be fair - as eventually you'd drive landlords completely out of business. The problem is that this is antithetical to higher density, because you need landlords of some form if you have anything denser than a duplex. You can have condos perhaps, but not everyone can afford to get into one, or even wants to. And if there's a lack of landlords willing to rent, there will be a lack of landlords willing to build to rent, and so the housing stock will continue to increase at a glacial pace. The laws of unintended consequences can strike in weird ways - making it easier to evict may result in more housing in total ...
  - techbrovanguard 3y ago
    > Some may consider it the end-goal, to be fair - as eventually you'd drive landlords completely out of business. Great! Housing should never have been allowed to become a commodity.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Did you read the rest of the comment? How do you solve the problem of condo owners not maintaining a property and letting problems fester for a couple decades after which they might be dead or move out?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
egorfine 3y ago
I have lived for a few short times in Berlin and around during the last 10 years. I have a strong feeling that "worst decor and electrics, terrible ventilation and mould" is indeed an actual high-end housing in Berlin. A modern bright renovated house with brand new appliances would definitely be frowned upon by a typical german landlord.
- vr46 3y ago
  Ourselves and the landlord are dealing with all the issues, bar a complete rewire, and a new bathroom is the next thing on the cards. There isn't enough money in the system to fund the operational costs of housing here. Inflation and regulations have pushed the costs of improvements into the sky - like some new reg coming in saying that ALL new roofs after 202X must have solar panels and gold plating and be made of Vibranium or something, and that means that roofs are simply going to be left to rot.
  - egorfine 3y ago
    That explains a lot, tbh
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
What's a "reluctant landlord?"
- cko 3y ago
  I'm guessing they had to move due to life circumstances, but due to taxes, transaction costs, sunk cost fallacy, hassle, etc, decided not to sell the unit. Every reluctant landlord capitulates and sells... eventually.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    How is that different than a non-reluctant landlord or a capitalist? It's the same intention: Increase the short term return on capital
    - cko 3y ago
      Increased return in monetary terms but maybe not quality of life.
lifestyleguru 3y ago
> In my section of Germany, housing is even worse with rent caps and tenant rights, plus a lack of housing. German rental market is one of the things I decided I will never again deal with in my lifetime. There is finite number of refrigerators and washing machines one can buy, finite number of deposit disputes one wants to experience.
ponderings 3y ago
The limited supply is what makes the market not work. Whatever people think about migrants we can at least agree that everyone living in an area (town/city/country) all should have a roof over their head. The real problem seems the disconnect between people, companies, processes and regulations getting in the way of building and the people, companies, processes and regulations wanting to move there or expand the population.

by vr46 3y ago

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

That sounds terrible. What "section of Germany" are you in? Berlin?

vr46 3y ago
Hamburg. The previous tenants left a mess, the landlord put in a new kitchen for us, new fences around the boundary, new back patio tiles. Ventilation is a problem as extractor fans need replacing and I’ve replaced a bunch of electric switches and sockets, but no fun. Classmates with income only from the job centre are unable to find a place to live, although that’s hardly better anywhere. In London the rents are astronomical and competitive but the cycle of finding, viewing, renting and moving is still running fine. In Hamburg people can’t even find apartments for rent.
- belter 3y ago
  The landlord put in a new kitchen for you? When I lived in several different towns in Germany every single flat was rented without kitchen...I bought more than one and had to dismount the kitchen when leaving. One of German absurdities I don't miss... "Apartments don’t come with kitchens in Germany" - https://alisajordanwrites.com/2018/08/06/apartments-dont-come-with-kitchens-in-germany/ https://alisajordanwrites.com/2018/08/06/apartments-dont-com...
  - morsch 3y ago
    I agree that it's dumb to have to buy a new kitchen when moving in (and tear it down when moving out). In most cases, though, you talk to the next person that moves in and, depending on the quality of the kitchen and social factors, sell it to them or just give it away. That is, when it's not part of the lease, which does exist in Germany, even if it's not mandatory. Student housing, for example, is usually fully equipped.
    - belter 3y ago
      Yes of course I talked to the new tenant. And guess what they replied? ;-)... ..."We already have our kitchen we had to take out form our previous accommodation!"
  - vr46 3y ago
    Yes, well, the kitchen - AND ALL THE LIGHTS IN THE HOUSE - were removed by the previous tenants. This is so fucking stupid it deserves a dedicated room in the Museum of The Stupid. Kitchens are so fitted to the physical rooms they are in, they are basically part of the house like walls, floors, ceilings and doors. It's totally mad, isn't it!
    - lifestyleguru 3y ago
      Argument I heard every time while in Germany "some people like to take the kitchen with them"... apparently they take all these fitted furniture and do something with it. Then yeah, lightning and sometimes even the flooring.... first days in new place in absolute darkness. Still the deposit is three months in case you damage... what exactly? ADSL internet from Vodafone or some other scum is the ultimate blow.
      - vr46 3y ago
        Germany must have inspired whoever wrote the Richard Pryor film, 'Moving' when he arrives in Boise to find that the sellers of his new house were not kidding when they said "we're taking everything with us"... And yes, darkness, there was literally no light whatsoever in either of the bathrooms unless our next-door neighbour helped out with some basic light fittings he had kicking around...
- ensignavenger 3y ago
  So are you a landlord, a tenant or both? Are you a UK lanlord.living in Hamburg and renting?

nixass 3y ago

[flagged]

ethanbond 3y ago

Land Value Tax: Make it financially unfeasible to speculate, to withhold units from the market, and to withhold unused land from the market. Let prices freely fluctuate with the market. Increases in rent derived from externalities (i.e. Amazon HQ2 setting up shop nearby or a new subway station) go back into public coffers, while increases in rent derived from landlord actions (i.e. renovations, building bigger, better units that command higher prices) go directly into their pockets.

zemvpferreira 3y ago
I'm a fan as long as we also continue building. Build, build, build as long as demand is there.
- kurthr 3y ago
  They did that in China and housing prices are still sky high. As long as "number go up" is the belief in housing you'll have speculators and empty housing. Now you could tax empty (non-rented dwellings without a declared tax residence) and that would lower prices and increase supply.
  - zemvpferreira 3y ago
    Fair enough though there's a lot more behind China's construction boom than just market forces. Property taxes + ease of building still seems like a panacea for the rest of the world to me.
username332211 3y ago
The end result: By the end of year 5 of it's implementation, the local tax authority shall determine the land owned by politically connected investment funds is virtually worthless, while ordinary citizen's derive virtually no value from any improvements they construct on their properties. Where this love for arbitrary taxation comes from? How much have you donated to your mayor's electoral campaign? Do you golf with aldermen?
conductr 3y ago

_cenw 3y ago

Social housing in Germany is asinine. The government heavily co-finances new construction for a subset of flats being offered as affordable housing, but with a 30 year limit to these restrictions. It's a subsidy for the rich. You break even, and you get some very cheap real estate in 30 years. The government should've just done the construction itself. A lot of social housing is currently reaching that 30 year mark, and it's barely being replaced. And costs for new constructions simply don't make a lot of sense right now, also affected by increasing building standards - which also prevent conversion of much vacant commercial space.

thriftwy 3y ago
Why not have private companies build and sell apartments? https://youtu.be/mav_Y0ZcVpw https://youtu.be/mav_Y0ZcVpw showing a random purchasable apartment in Russia.
- scythe 3y ago
  Condos are politically caught between a rock and a hard place: leftists who think they turn cities into playgrounds for the rich, and reactionaries who think the government is trying to force everyone into multi-unit buildings. Ownership is nice for the long term, but sometimes people just aren't ready for that. Some careers nowadays involve several training periods which happen in multiple different cities and stretch out for 8-12 years. Sometimes to get a good job in a less dynamic city you are better off working in SF/NY for a few years after school even if that's not where you want to end up. Maybe people learn faster that way. Retirees may be better off renting if they don't want to do maintenance and may only live there for a decade before moving into assisted living.
  - thriftwy 3y ago
    When you need to move in temporarily, you can always rent a flat from a person just like yourself who bought one and is renting it out individually. In the absense of rent control and abundance of constructions, offers are plentiful.
3y ago

miki123211 3y ago

Poland has a system where it's basically impossible to evict anybody if you rent under the standard rules. However, there exists a special type of contract which allows for quick and painless eviction, but where the tenant must provide proof that they have a place to stay at, either a deed to a property they own or a declaration from somebody who is willing to take them in. A lot of landlords insist on this type of contract, which makes it much harder to find housing for foreigners and those who decided to cut contact with their families. Landlords basically have no other option, we don't really have a credit score system like the US does, so it's much harder to verify how trustworthy you are. There are agencies that can tell you if somebody's currently in debt or not, but as far as I'm aware, somebody with no credit history is basically indistinguishable from somebody with "good" history.

bombcar 3y ago
These kinds of things are side-effects of "tenant's rights" laws. Some may consider it the end-goal, to be fair - as eventually you'd drive landlords completely out of business. The problem is that this is antithetical to higher density, because you need landlords of some form if you have anything denser than a duplex. You can have condos perhaps, but not everyone can afford to get into one, or even wants to. And if there's a lack of landlords willing to rent, there will be a lack of landlords willing to build to rent, and so the housing stock will continue to increase at a glacial pace. The laws of unintended consequences can strike in weird ways - making it easier to evict may result in more housing in total ...
- techbrovanguard 3y ago
  > Some may consider it the end-goal, to be fair - as eventually you'd drive landlords completely out of business. Great! Housing should never have been allowed to become a commodity.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Did you read the rest of the comment? How do you solve the problem of condo owners not maintaining a property and letting problems fester for a couple decades after which they might be dead or move out?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

egorfine 3y ago

I have lived for a few short times in Berlin and around during the last 10 years. I have a strong feeling that "worst decor and electrics, terrible ventilation and mould" is indeed an actual high-end housing in Berlin. A modern bright renovated house with brand new appliances would definitely be frowned upon by a typical german landlord.

vr46 3y ago
Ourselves and the landlord are dealing with all the issues, bar a complete rewire, and a new bathroom is the next thing on the cards. There isn't enough money in the system to fund the operational costs of housing here. Inflation and regulations have pushed the costs of improvements into the sky - like some new reg coming in saying that ALL new roofs after 202X must have solar panels and gold plating and be made of Vibranium or something, and that means that roofs are simply going to be left to rot.
- egorfine 3y ago
  That explains a lot, tbh

AndrewKemendo 3y ago

What's a "reluctant landlord?"

cko 3y ago
I'm guessing they had to move due to life circumstances, but due to taxes, transaction costs, sunk cost fallacy, hassle, etc, decided not to sell the unit. Every reluctant landlord capitulates and sells... eventually.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  How is that different than a non-reluctant landlord or a capitalist? It's the same intention: Increase the short term return on capital
  - cko 3y ago
    Increased return in monetary terms but maybe not quality of life.

lifestyleguru 3y ago

> In my section of Germany, housing is even worse with rent caps and tenant rights, plus a lack of housing. German rental market is one of the things I decided I will never again deal with in my lifetime. There is finite number of refrigerators and washing machines one can buy, finite number of deposit disputes one wants to experience.

ponderings 3y ago

The limited supply is what makes the market not work. Whatever people think about migrants we can at least agree that everyone living in an area (town/city/country) all should have a roof over their head. The real problem seems the disconnect between people, companies, processes and regulations getting in the way of building and the people, companies, processes and regulations wanting to move there or expand the population.