8 ms·

Novel drug could protect brains from damage after repeat concussions

108 points by wglb 3y ago

cat_plus_plus 3y ago
If you end up taking a drug because someone bangs you on your head everyday, it's good that it's there, but you might also want to put a stop to that.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  Perhaps, but many sports (such as football and American football) are far too popular to end anytime soon. Additionally, it may be given as a precaution after a first concussion (car wreck, for example), even if that person is unlikely to be "banged on the head everyday"
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    https://www.nfl.com/news/op-ed-flag-football-can-t-be-ignored-time-to-get-on-board-is-now https://www.nfl.com/news/op-ed-flag-football-can-t-be-ignore... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39081597 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39081597
    - jbluepolarbear 3y ago
      Sorry, no one is gonna prefer to watch flag football over full contact tackling. This is an absurd article. And the fact that the Olympics are holding a flag football event is a joke.
      - stavros 3y ago
        That's what the Romans said when they tried to go from fighting to the death to fighting until someone yielded.
        mrguyorama 3y ago
        Roman gladiatorial combat rarely went to the death. Fighters were valuable media personalities, much like pro athletes today, supposedly including product endorsements and billboard advertising! Battles and fighters were focused on spectacle. It was basically just the WWE
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - importantbrian 3y ago
        Really, no one? Flag participation is already higher for 6 to 12-year-olds than tackle. Lots of girls participate in flag. I suspect they'll be interested in watching the sport they grew up playing. It might never be more popular than tackle, but to say no one will prefer watching it is silly.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    Any stats on this? Sports (that cause these injuries) are a choice/entertainment and people should pay for playing (like you should pay if you are obese, smoke or drink), but how much of this are actual accidents (cars, normal bike riding, work, army)?
    - krisoft 3y ago
      > people should pay for playing I’m sorry, what? There are two ways I can interpret what you wrote. “Should pay” as in the people who play sports should buy their own concussion medicine. Which is okay I guess? But nobody talked about financing. Which makes me think you mean “should pay” as in people who choose to partake in sports should suffer harm (as in pay the metaphorical “price”). Is that how you mean it? Because that sounds extremely cruel and twisted morality. There is nothing “should” about that. That makes it sound as if these people deserve the harm even if we could prevent it.
      - anonzzzies 3y ago
        No that's not how I mean it, sorry. I mean if you put yourself in danger, society shouldn't necessarily pay. Sports is healthy if it's not a sport that endangers your body and that should be rewarded; sports that are proven to give you multiple injuries (concussions etc) are not very different from bad addictions. It's your choice/responsibility, not 'ours'. But no I definitely didn't mean the tail end. Sorry if you read that into it; I would never say that.
        krisoft 3y ago
        Thank you for the clarification, and I'm sorry for misunderstanding it. In that case I agree with you.
  - lupusreal 3y ago
    You don't have to end the sport, just opt not to play it yourself. The GP's suggestion is valid; if you're getting hit in the head a lit you should stop doing that.
  - importantbrian 3y ago
    While American Football won't end anytime soon -- depending on your definition of soon. It's worth noting that youth participation rates are falling dramatically, and there are big regional differences. It will take a while, but football will eventually end up as a niche regional sport. Unless a drug like this or some revolutionary piece of safety equipment came along. Then I could see the sport staying on top long term.
- rain_iwakura 3y ago
  i'm not sure if know this but a concussion increases a risk of another concussion. your brain loses ability to balance the body movements and it's a death spiral that a lot of people can't get out of. unless you mean someone who plays sports known for the risk.
  - caseyohara 3y ago
    Studies seem to confirm that concussion increases the risk of subsequent concussion, and I guess it might be true that the brain loses the ability to balance the body leading to more concussions. But the brain itself seems more susceptible to concussion after having one; I don't think it's exclusively a matter of balance or body movements. Especially when you consider athletes (esp. American football) where their concussions are not usually the result of a slip-and-fall type incident like an elderly person. > Also, it is now known that, after a concussion, there is greater susceptibility to sustaining another concussion and that subsequent concussions occur with less force and take longer to resolve. Source: Concussions and their consequences: current diagnosis, management and prevention https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3735746/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3735746/ That paper cites this paper (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/197667 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/19766...) which seems to suggest it has more to do with post-injury neuronal vulnerability. > Our study suggests that players with a history of previous concussions are more likely to have future concussive injuries than those with no history; 1 in 15 players with a concussion may have additional concussions in the same playing season; and previous concussions may be associated with slower recovery of neurological function. > Additionally, our study suggests that a history of concussion is associated with prolonged recovery following subsequent concussions. The increased risk of future injury, as well as slower recovery, may be indicative of increased neuronal vulnerability following recurrent concussive injuries.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  Could be useful for soldiers, who may be subject to concussions on an unfortunately regular basis.
  - refurb 3y ago
    Much of the TBI research is funded by the DOD.
  - whaleofatw2022 3y ago
    Breachers. In fact a former colleague's husband fell into that bucket. He was a breacher for the local PD, and too much of that (the compression wave bounces your brain around inside the skull) caused him to have all sorts of issues that took years to stabilize.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  Personally I’m looking forward to Peter Thiel’s new sports league
- xlii 3y ago
  As far as I know there aren’t any sports which are completely safe and without side effects. Sport can ruin your joints (eg. running), spine (eg. weightlifting) and cause plethora of other health issues (anecdotally I know many people who got serious injuries from while leisurely playing team games). Usually there’s net gain from those activities, and what sport one practices vastly depends on preference and I’d rather encourage people to get hit in the head in controlled environment versus growing roots in the chair. As a fan of practicing fighting sports I find such drug a great addition to all the other protection amateur can have.
  - stavros 3y ago
    Swimming?
    - ntlve 3y ago
      Possibly not: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4869851/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4869851/
      - lupusreal 3y ago
        > The traditional view that swimmers naturally gravitate toward swimming because of preexisting respiratory disorders has been challenged Lolwut. Anybody who could believe that has never been a swimmer. Of course aspirating drops of pool water, and the chlorinated air lingering above pools, is going to be a lung problem. Why in the world would anybody with preexisting respiratory issues gravitate towards swimming? That's ludicrous. > The traditional explanation for this higher prevalence rate is one of selection bias. The suggestion that swimming is a more suitable activity compared to both cycling and running in asthmatics5 is not surprising. For example, the hydrostatic compression effect of water can reduce the effort required to generate expiratory flow, Dumbest thing I've ever read.
  - rob74 3y ago
    Cycling is better for the joints than running. Unfortunately, bicycles are so damned effective that you have to cycle for a lot longer to burn the same amount of calories as when running...
- neogodless 3y ago
  Presumably you only mean sports. I'm tall. My first big concussion was so stupid. I had a box of stuff in the floor near the wall under a heavy wall-mounted shelf. Stood up after picking something out of the box and smashed my head. Since then I've had several minor ones, but as stated elsewhere, you become more easily susceptible to the effects of a concussion from even relatively small impacts after a big one. The others include helping someone move something in their garage and hitting my head on a ceiling mounted HVAC unit, stepping out of the shower (I've got terrible eyesight) and hitting the top of the door frame, those sorts of things. You could have those happen and be fine but it seems because they happened after the bigger concussion, I'll have symptoms again, especially sensitivity to low refresh rate screens or PWM. I try to avoid it, but I'm not going to avoid living my life. And I'm not going to stop being tall. So if medicine can help protect my brain, I'm interested in it.
  - instagib 3y ago
    Same, I’m regrettably at an average of one concussion per year. Some described as mild or moderate TBI. I would be very cautious after a concussion. I had one in one month (odd to pass out and not fall down) then another the following month (slip and fall) then became disabled for about a year. I’ve read that supplementing with high dose creatine and exercise can help post concussion or with migraines which I regularly get now.
bryanrasmussen 3y ago
Just think if they had this drug back in the 90s Jerry Maguire might never have been made.
Codesleuth 3y ago
> A 54-g metal (tungsten) bolt was used to deliver an impact to the dorsal aspect of the skull, resulting in a rotational acceleration of the head through the Kimwipe. Mice underwent seven repetitive less-than-mild injuries (rlmTBI, 24-inch height; W/5 mm flat) OR repetitive mild injuries (rmTBI, 36-inch height; W/5 mm flat) in 9 days. This seems very cruel, even in the face of progress. The price that animals pay for human survival is unimaginable.
- corethree 3y ago
  Not as cruel as animal slaughter. Imagine the horror of being sliced into flesh cubes for consumption. Compared to that this is tame.
  - fallowx 3y ago
    [flagged]
- alecco 3y ago
  This is nothing compared to wild life, like starvation, disease, or being eaten alive by a cat. Just check the NatureIsMetal subreddit. I do take issue with redundant animal testing for trivial things like cosmetics.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- therein 3y ago
  I'd take it further, in my opinion, it is essentially unjustifiable in a deeply karmic way. I genuinely think that I would be able to work on a weapons guidance system and even know that it has been used to target a military vehicle without feeling much guilt but performing the kind of work you have quoted on animals would make me stop and think. And just stop. It is not worth the progress. Not worth the credits, the money. Not worth graduating.
  - niemandhier 3y ago
test6554 3y ago
Maybe someday there will be a drug that protects brains before suffering repeat concussions
- neogodless 3y ago
  Not sure if joking or just parsing the sentence different from intended. > Novel drug could protect brains from damage after repeat concussions "brains get damage after repeat concussions" "novel drug could protect brains against that"
- apapapa 3y ago
  You don't like watching people killing themselves in UFC, NFL, etc... ?
  - JasserInicide 3y ago
    Seeing people perform in high risk competition is something that goes back to antiquity. I don't know why we can't be more honest with ourselves on this point. I don't watch UFC but I do know that in the past 20 years the NFL becoming more "safe" and prioritizing high scoring games has taken a certain amount of soul out of the game
glanzwulf 3y ago
Is this drug sponsored by Roger Goodell?
- apapapa 3y ago
  The Gov sponsors it... Pharma gets the profits
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
Go vegan
- fallowx 3y ago
  [flagged]
ProjectArcturis 3y ago
It is extremely unlikely that a drug could prevent damage from repeat concussions. Blunt force trauma to the brain causes a plethora of cascading cellular injuries and responses. A single drug might limit damage from one of those pathways, but it's certainly not going to render a concussion harmless. Just like a single drug isn't going to be a cure for a gunshot.

108 points by wglb 3y ago

If you end up taking a drug because someone bangs you on your head everyday, it's good that it's there, but you might also want to put a stop to that.

bdcravens 3y ago
Perhaps, but many sports (such as football and American football) are far too popular to end anytime soon. Additionally, it may be given as a precaution after a first concussion (car wreck, for example), even if that person is unlikely to be "banged on the head everyday"
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  https://www.nfl.com/news/op-ed-flag-football-can-t-be-ignored-time-to-get-on-board-is-now https://www.nfl.com/news/op-ed-flag-football-can-t-be-ignore... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39081597 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39081597
  - jbluepolarbear 3y ago
    Sorry, no one is gonna prefer to watch flag football over full contact tackling. This is an absurd article. And the fact that the Olympics are holding a flag football event is a joke.
    - stavros 3y ago
      That's what the Romans said when they tried to go from fighting to the death to fighting until someone yielded.
      - mrguyorama 3y ago
        Roman gladiatorial combat rarely went to the death. Fighters were valuable media personalities, much like pro athletes today, supposedly including product endorsements and billboard advertising! Battles and fighters were focused on spectacle. It was basically just the WWE
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - importantbrian 3y ago
      Really, no one? Flag participation is already higher for 6 to 12-year-olds than tackle. Lots of girls participate in flag. I suspect they'll be interested in watching the sport they grew up playing. It might never be more popular than tackle, but to say no one will prefer watching it is silly.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  Any stats on this? Sports (that cause these injuries) are a choice/entertainment and people should pay for playing (like you should pay if you are obese, smoke or drink), but how much of this are actual accidents (cars, normal bike riding, work, army)?
  - krisoft 3y ago
    > people should pay for playing I’m sorry, what? There are two ways I can interpret what you wrote. “Should pay” as in the people who play sports should buy their own concussion medicine. Which is okay I guess? But nobody talked about financing. Which makes me think you mean “should pay” as in people who choose to partake in sports should suffer harm (as in pay the metaphorical “price”). Is that how you mean it? Because that sounds extremely cruel and twisted morality. There is nothing “should” about that. That makes it sound as if these people deserve the harm even if we could prevent it.
    - anonzzzies 3y ago
      No that's not how I mean it, sorry. I mean if you put yourself in danger, society shouldn't necessarily pay. Sports is healthy if it's not a sport that endangers your body and that should be rewarded; sports that are proven to give you multiple injuries (concussions etc) are not very different from bad addictions. It's your choice/responsibility, not 'ours'. But no I definitely didn't mean the tail end. Sorry if you read that into it; I would never say that.
      - krisoft 3y ago
        Thank you for the clarification, and I'm sorry for misunderstanding it. In that case I agree with you.
- lupusreal 3y ago
  You don't have to end the sport, just opt not to play it yourself. The GP's suggestion is valid; if you're getting hit in the head a lit you should stop doing that.
- importantbrian 3y ago
  While American Football won't end anytime soon -- depending on your definition of soon. It's worth noting that youth participation rates are falling dramatically, and there are big regional differences. It will take a while, but football will eventually end up as a niche regional sport. Unless a drug like this or some revolutionary piece of safety equipment came along. Then I could see the sport staying on top long term.
rain_iwakura 3y ago
i'm not sure if know this but a concussion increases a risk of another concussion. your brain loses ability to balance the body movements and it's a death spiral that a lot of people can't get out of. unless you mean someone who plays sports known for the risk.
- caseyohara 3y ago
  Studies seem to confirm that concussion increases the risk of subsequent concussion, and I guess it might be true that the brain loses the ability to balance the body leading to more concussions. But the brain itself seems more susceptible to concussion after having one; I don't think it's exclusively a matter of balance or body movements. Especially when you consider athletes (esp. American football) where their concussions are not usually the result of a slip-and-fall type incident like an elderly person. > Also, it is now known that, after a concussion, there is greater susceptibility to sustaining another concussion and that subsequent concussions occur with less force and take longer to resolve. Source: Concussions and their consequences: current diagnosis, management and prevention https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3735746/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3735746/ That paper cites this paper (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/197667 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/19766...) which seems to suggest it has more to do with post-injury neuronal vulnerability. > Our study suggests that players with a history of previous concussions are more likely to have future concussive injuries than those with no history; 1 in 15 players with a concussion may have additional concussions in the same playing season; and previous concussions may be associated with slower recovery of neurological function. > Additionally, our study suggests that a history of concussion is associated with prolonged recovery following subsequent concussions. The increased risk of future injury, as well as slower recovery, may be indicative of increased neuronal vulnerability following recurrent concussive injuries.
gnicholas 3y ago
Could be useful for soldiers, who may be subject to concussions on an unfortunately regular basis.
- refurb 3y ago
  Much of the TBI research is funded by the DOD.
- whaleofatw2022 3y ago
  Breachers. In fact a former colleague's husband fell into that bucket. He was a breacher for the local PD, and too much of that (the compression wave bounces your brain around inside the skull) caused him to have all sorts of issues that took years to stabilize.
yieldcrv 3y ago
Personally I’m looking forward to Peter Thiel’s new sports league
xlii 3y ago
As far as I know there aren’t any sports which are completely safe and without side effects. Sport can ruin your joints (eg. running), spine (eg. weightlifting) and cause plethora of other health issues (anecdotally I know many people who got serious injuries from while leisurely playing team games). Usually there’s net gain from those activities, and what sport one practices vastly depends on preference and I’d rather encourage people to get hit in the head in controlled environment versus growing roots in the chair. As a fan of practicing fighting sports I find such drug a great addition to all the other protection amateur can have.
- stavros 3y ago
  Swimming?
  - ntlve 3y ago
    Possibly not: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4869851/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4869851/
    - lupusreal 3y ago
      > The traditional view that swimmers naturally gravitate toward swimming because of preexisting respiratory disorders has been challenged Lolwut. Anybody who could believe that has never been a swimmer. Of course aspirating drops of pool water, and the chlorinated air lingering above pools, is going to be a lung problem. Why in the world would anybody with preexisting respiratory issues gravitate towards swimming? That's ludicrous. > The traditional explanation for this higher prevalence rate is one of selection bias. The suggestion that swimming is a more suitable activity compared to both cycling and running in asthmatics5 is not surprising. For example, the hydrostatic compression effect of water can reduce the effort required to generate expiratory flow, Dumbest thing I've ever read.
- rob74 3y ago
  Cycling is better for the joints than running. Unfortunately, bicycles are so damned effective that you have to cycle for a lot longer to burn the same amount of calories as when running...
neogodless 3y ago
Presumably you only mean sports. I'm tall. My first big concussion was so stupid. I had a box of stuff in the floor near the wall under a heavy wall-mounted shelf. Stood up after picking something out of the box and smashed my head. Since then I've had several minor ones, but as stated elsewhere, you become more easily susceptible to the effects of a concussion from even relatively small impacts after a big one. The others include helping someone move something in their garage and hitting my head on a ceiling mounted HVAC unit, stepping out of the shower (I've got terrible eyesight) and hitting the top of the door frame, those sorts of things. You could have those happen and be fine but it seems because they happened after the bigger concussion, I'll have symptoms again, especially sensitivity to low refresh rate screens or PWM. I try to avoid it, but I'm not going to avoid living my life. And I'm not going to stop being tall. So if medicine can help protect my brain, I'm interested in it.
- instagib 3y ago
  Same, I’m regrettably at an average of one concussion per year. Some described as mild or moderate TBI. I would be very cautious after a concussion. I had one in one month (odd to pass out and not fall down) then another the following month (slip and fall) then became disabled for about a year. I’ve read that supplementing with high dose creatine and exercise can help post concussion or with migraines which I regularly get now.

bryanrasmussen 3y ago

Just think if they had this drug back in the 90s Jerry Maguire might never have been made.

Codesleuth 3y ago

> A 54-g metal (tungsten) bolt was used to deliver an impact to the dorsal aspect of the skull, resulting in a rotational acceleration of the head through the Kimwipe. Mice underwent seven repetitive less-than-mild injuries (rlmTBI, 24-inch height; W/5 mm flat) OR repetitive mild injuries (rmTBI, 36-inch height; W/5 mm flat) in 9 days. This seems very cruel, even in the face of progress. The price that animals pay for human survival is unimaginable.

corethree 3y ago
Not as cruel as animal slaughter. Imagine the horror of being sliced into flesh cubes for consumption. Compared to that this is tame.
- fallowx 3y ago
  [flagged]
alecco 3y ago
This is nothing compared to wild life, like starvation, disease, or being eaten alive by a cat. Just check the NatureIsMetal subreddit. I do take issue with redundant animal testing for trivial things like cosmetics.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
therein 3y ago
I'd take it further, in my opinion, it is essentially unjustifiable in a deeply karmic way. I genuinely think that I would be able to work on a weapons guidance system and even know that it has been used to target a military vehicle without feeling much guilt but performing the kind of work you have quoted on animals would make me stop and think. And just stop. It is not worth the progress. Not worth the credits, the money. Not worth graduating.
- niemandhier 3y ago

test6554 3y ago

Maybe someday there will be a drug that protects brains before suffering repeat concussions

neogodless 3y ago
Not sure if joking or just parsing the sentence different from intended. > Novel drug could protect brains from damage after repeat concussions "brains get damage after repeat concussions" "novel drug could protect brains against that"
apapapa 3y ago
You don't like watching people killing themselves in UFC, NFL, etc... ?
- JasserInicide 3y ago
  Seeing people perform in high risk competition is something that goes back to antiquity. I don't know why we can't be more honest with ourselves on this point. I don't watch UFC but I do know that in the past 20 years the NFL becoming more "safe" and prioritizing high scoring games has taken a certain amount of soul out of the game

glanzwulf 3y ago

Is this drug sponsored by Roger Goodell?

apapapa 3y ago
The Gov sponsors it... Pharma gets the profits

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago

Go vegan

fallowx 3y ago
[flagged]

ProjectArcturis 3y ago

It is extremely unlikely that a drug could prevent damage from repeat concussions. Blunt force trauma to the brain causes a plethora of cascading cellular injuries and responses. A single drug might limit damage from one of those pathways, but it's certainly not going to render a concussion harmless. Just like a single drug isn't going to be a cure for a gunshot.