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I presume you were foreign national with more options. Options for diasphora Chinese, many who illegally hold dual citizenship and relies on PRC nationality to

I presume you were foreign national with more options. Options for diasphora Chinese, many who illegally hold dual citizenship and relies on PRC nationality to do transactions/capital flight in PRC is different. I highlighted the original quote where branch is mostly Chinese-Canadian for context. Aurora is 20% Chinese, it's a big diasphora neighbourhood. There isn't some big "fake chinese income" conspiracy, it's the entire (proven) business plan (money laundering) with occasional fraud. I think pretty much everyone knew Chinese are buying million+ propertiers with laundered money, and it fuels the bubble as much as any other foreign buyer.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Ya, foreign nationals are allowed to export their earnings. But even Chinese citizens can also pool those $50k yearly allocations, it doesn’t take a lot of friends and family to do that. I’m not really sure what is happening among the rich, but among the middle class, it isn’t so much money laundering but having lots of savings with no good investment options, or just wanting to make money while someone else takes on the risk. They don’t have access to money that needs laundering.
- jabbany 3y ago
  > But even Chinese citizens can also pool those $50k yearly allocations, it doesn’t take a lot of friends and family to do that. So as an observer of this, you will see money coming out of one place, spread to many accounts, wired overseas to different recipients, then re-aggregated... What do you think that looks like...? Surely not money laundering?
  - maxglute 3y ago
    Not on Canada's end, it's a bunch of people using legal capital controls to get money into Canada. On PRC end, it's evading capital controls, which depending on your geopolitical alignment, can be illegal activity. But if you're in the west, you want that Chinese money. Free money from competitotrs as good as brain drain from competitors.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Capital controls have bad intentions anyways, I have no qualm with PRC citizens trying to avoid them. Not everyone in the west wants or likes Chinese money. It does lead to them basically exporting their bubble abroad, but Japan did the same in the 80s before their big bust.
      - jabbany 3y ago
        Yup. Hence the capital control (less money leaking out means an easier recovery after the bust). Of course, as is rational in capitalism, this just makes it even more urgent to skirt the capital control, lest you be caught with the burden of the bust. This was also why crypto was even an option for doing this, for a short while at least.
      - maxglute 3y ago
        Yes, PRC citizens avoiding capital controls end up playing on the same field as other global wealth. I think PRC exporting their bubble is over stated - 10s of millions of tier1 buyers got into the speculation/RE game early in 90s that they'd be millionaires with wealth to enter western RE game regardless where PRC RE market stablizes. And there are just millions of millionaires in China, independant of wealth from RE bubble. Many buyers are simply independantly wealthy from other business ventures ontop of having multiple tier1 units to liquidate to buy western RE. The folks buying million+ dollar properties and 100k cars in the last few years didn't liquidate everything they have in PRC to start new life in Canada. Canada is a retirement plan they bought with change. Sure not everyone wants PRC money, but the sellers certainly do, as do the intermediates who benefits from PRC capital flight.
    - fennecbutt 3y ago
      It's not free money if house prices are pumped and sold, profits then returned to China. They used to try to overbuy milk powder in NZ, ignoring supermarket limits imposed bc NZ mothers couldn't find enough formula for their kids. Chinese buyers would sell it back to China to make a tidy profit, after their baby formula scandal drove demand for foreign baby formula (which still exists today). Worked at a supermarket at start of uni, got so fucking sick of being screamed at in mandarin bc I refuse to sell them 30 tins when the limit was 2. Over and over, every damn shift. Source that isn't me: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/china-buys-up-big-in-nz-baby-milk/TQ7HO3BOBEHGQ5MZTDJ3JQDCX4/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/china-buys-up-big-in-nz-baby-m...
- maxglute 3y ago
  It happens, it can be more annoying than one thinks since people with wealth to exfiltrate correlated with other family members who also have wealth to exfiltrate, graft is family business. Nephew/niece studying abroad? That's 100k gone per year for next 4-5 years. Meanwhile living well is expensive, annoying to be dependant on personal capital flight group. And post crackdown, it's more risky to drag family/friends into pooling. Especially if they're public sector/public sector adjacent. Frequently, it's easier to pay someone commission to move money for you. In my experience, middle class aren't buying million+ RE, they pool together savings to send kids abroad, and maybe put a down payment on a condo that the kid pays off once they get decent job in west. And by middle class we really mean upper flat out highincome top %5-10 relative to all PRC house holds who are middle class tier1/2 regions. But agreed, domestic non gov investment ecosystem pretty trash, hard to beat investing in your kid(s) and saving for retirement until a mature system develops. Which IMO hard goal since focus isn't to further wide wealth disparity by giving that 5-10% more consumption/investment abilities but to bring up the next quantiles of households - the actual middle class. This is where my assessment departs from most, I think "common prosperity" for PRC is getting more households richer, but at PRC development levels, that diminishes the households with enough savings to retire and surplus to invest. And this has all sorts of implications on inflation/FX rate.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Ya, foreign nationals are allowed to export their earnings. But even Chinese citizens can also pool those $50k yearly allocations, it doesn’t take a lot of friends and family to do that. I’m not really sure what is happening among the rich, but among the middle class, it isn’t so much money laundering but having lots of savings with no good investment options, or just wanting to make money while someone else takes on the risk. They don’t have access to money that needs laundering.

jabbany 3y ago
> But even Chinese citizens can also pool those $50k yearly allocations, it doesn’t take a lot of friends and family to do that. So as an observer of this, you will see money coming out of one place, spread to many accounts, wired overseas to different recipients, then re-aggregated... What do you think that looks like...? Surely not money laundering?
- maxglute 3y ago
  Not on Canada's end, it's a bunch of people using legal capital controls to get money into Canada. On PRC end, it's evading capital controls, which depending on your geopolitical alignment, can be illegal activity. But if you're in the west, you want that Chinese money. Free money from competitotrs as good as brain drain from competitors.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Capital controls have bad intentions anyways, I have no qualm with PRC citizens trying to avoid them. Not everyone in the west wants or likes Chinese money. It does lead to them basically exporting their bubble abroad, but Japan did the same in the 80s before their big bust.
    - jabbany 3y ago
      Yup. Hence the capital control (less money leaking out means an easier recovery after the bust). Of course, as is rational in capitalism, this just makes it even more urgent to skirt the capital control, lest you be caught with the burden of the bust. This was also why crypto was even an option for doing this, for a short while at least.
    - maxglute 3y ago
      Yes, PRC citizens avoiding capital controls end up playing on the same field as other global wealth. I think PRC exporting their bubble is over stated - 10s of millions of tier1 buyers got into the speculation/RE game early in 90s that they'd be millionaires with wealth to enter western RE game regardless where PRC RE market stablizes. And there are just millions of millionaires in China, independant of wealth from RE bubble. Many buyers are simply independantly wealthy from other business ventures ontop of having multiple tier1 units to liquidate to buy western RE. The folks buying million+ dollar properties and 100k cars in the last few years didn't liquidate everything they have in PRC to start new life in Canada. Canada is a retirement plan they bought with change. Sure not everyone wants PRC money, but the sellers certainly do, as do the intermediates who benefits from PRC capital flight.
  - fennecbutt 3y ago
    It's not free money if house prices are pumped and sold, profits then returned to China. They used to try to overbuy milk powder in NZ, ignoring supermarket limits imposed bc NZ mothers couldn't find enough formula for their kids. Chinese buyers would sell it back to China to make a tidy profit, after their baby formula scandal drove demand for foreign baby formula (which still exists today). Worked at a supermarket at start of uni, got so fucking sick of being screamed at in mandarin bc I refuse to sell them 30 tins when the limit was 2. Over and over, every damn shift. Source that isn't me: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/china-buys-up-big-in-nz-baby-milk/TQ7HO3BOBEHGQ5MZTDJ3JQDCX4/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/china-buys-up-big-in-nz-baby-m...
maxglute 3y ago
It happens, it can be more annoying than one thinks since people with wealth to exfiltrate correlated with other family members who also have wealth to exfiltrate, graft is family business. Nephew/niece studying abroad? That's 100k gone per year for next 4-5 years. Meanwhile living well is expensive, annoying to be dependant on personal capital flight group. And post crackdown, it's more risky to drag family/friends into pooling. Especially if they're public sector/public sector adjacent. Frequently, it's easier to pay someone commission to move money for you. In my experience, middle class aren't buying million+ RE, they pool together savings to send kids abroad, and maybe put a down payment on a condo that the kid pays off once they get decent job in west. And by middle class we really mean upper flat out highincome top %5-10 relative to all PRC house holds who are middle class tier1/2 regions. But agreed, domestic non gov investment ecosystem pretty trash, hard to beat investing in your kid(s) and saving for retirement until a mature system develops. Which IMO hard goal since focus isn't to further wide wealth disparity by giving that 5-10% more consumption/investment abilities but to bring up the next quantiles of households - the actual middle class. This is where my assessment departs from most, I think "common prosperity" for PRC is getting more households richer, but at PRC development levels, that diminishes the households with enough savings to retire and surplus to invest. And this has all sorts of implications on inflation/FX rate.