5 ms·

Early Apple Vision Pro adopters alarmed to learn VR porn doesn't work

60 points by ajdude 3y ago

jacquesm 3y ago
You really shouldn't be surprised. Anything Apple fields is part of their eco system, even the Macs are getting more so with every passing day. Apple would like to impose their values on your hardware, whether you like it or not. You're headed straight for digital Disneyland.
- frizlab 3y ago
  This has nothing to do with values and everything to do with the lack of support for 180 degree side by side video…
- karlgkk 3y ago
  While your complaint about Apple is generally true... If you'd read the article, you'd see that it's because Apple hasn't supported SBS video - one of the most common 3d video technologies. It has nothing to do with imposing values. No reason has been given, although "SBS isn't supported to keep porn off their platform" is ludicrous conspiracy.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    It's not a conspiracy, if there is an avenue through which porn could make it onto their platform and Apple has control over that avenue it will be closed. In software, in hardware or through the TOS and a review process. You can count on it.
    - blueblob 3y ago
      Ah yes, because they blocked porn sites in the safari browser and default hosts files, right? Or maybe they don't have control of those?
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        If they could, they would.
    - nickthegreek 3y ago
      A web browser allows porn on your platform. So Apple has failed since the launch of the iPhone to do this. A Developer creating an app that plays Side-by-side 3d Videos is perfectly allowed by ToS.
      - int_19h 3y ago
        If Apple could get rid of web browser in lieu of having everything done via apps, they most certainly would.
    - nerdjon 3y ago
      I have porn on my iCloud Drive, photos, even within certain apps (well... adult but not porn. at what point does someone sending you a photo change to porn?), and through the browser. This is factually untrue. While the puritanical nature of the App Store is weird, particularly when they have no issue with drug and sex references in their keynotes. You are way off.
  - adrian_b 3y ago
    The fact that SBS, which is the most popular format for 3D movies, not necessarily porn movies, is not supported in a product advertised for its 3D capabilities, after so much time that has been used for preparing its software for the official launch, does not have any decent explanation. Perhaps they did not use specifically porn as the reason for not supporting it, but in any case this is hard to explain otherwise than a measure to make difficult the use of any content that is not provided through Apple, i.e. if this is not anti-porn it is at least an anti-competitive measure.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      It's the same reason that YouTube VR videos aren't supported. From what I've gathered, it's basically that they're mostly too low quality, compared to the AVP's resolution. Apple wants to limit video to only a super premium experience, which they seem to be working on but it hasn't been launched yet. In other words, they don't want the VR video experience to be the same as 4K or 8K SBS on a Quest 3, because then you'll just buy a Quest instead. I'm not defending this, but I am saying there's a logic to it. The AVP isn't anti-porn (I'm sure you can watch the regular 2D kind on the web just fine, Apple isn't limiting your content there), nor is it anti-competitive. It's just not implementing a feature.
      - dylan-m 3y ago
        Quality is a pretty good guess, there. I know nothing about porn, but I've watched a few VR-first films. In my mind, the only good attempt at the genre has been a ten minute real-time rendered thing that invites the viewer to come sit down and look around the room while the story happens around them. Small scale. But it makes sense to me. Flat screen cinema didn't start with Lord of the Rings. Even if it was technically possible, that would have been a disaster. It's very tempting for a filmmaker to carry whatever techniques they are used to in traditional film and use a fancy camera to make it "VR". It takes a long time for the lessons we've learned to actually take root so we can tell a story without throwing the viewer around in some gravity-defying kaleidoscope of headaches. Apple is up against a widespread misconception that VR means motion sickness for a huge number of people. Largely because of cheap garbage like Gear VR, and content designed for it.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  I've always found Apple's moral position on these kinds of [USA Puritanical] things (porn, gambling, and so on) pretty weird. Of all the tech companies not beholden to the pressures to censor from advertising customers and external brands, Apple is least reliant on these external forces. You'd think they of all companies wouldn't care because a laissez faire attitude wouldn't lose them revenue. Yet, the AppStore has some of the most puritanical rules on the web. Huh...
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
    Do they get more revenue from AppStore sales or advertising? At any rate, if it's easy to see puritan-aggravating things, such people might be aggravated into not making a purchase. At Apple's scale that likely turns into something similar with Amazon reducing their page load times by ~100ms to see a ~1% increase in sales.
  - nvahalik 3y ago
    > I've always found Apple's moral position ... pretty weird. Honestly, I find them refreshing. Granted, this isn't a technology problem probably so much as an app problem, but in general, the fact that you can't easy find sketchy apps on the App Store easily makes it far easier for me to bring into a family environment. What's _ironic_ about this is that iTunes/Apple Music will gladly show you pornographic music videos/album covers/music EVEN IF you try to avoid them. I contact Apple Support a few months ago because we were listening to one album and then the infinite playlist started spewing lyrical garbage over my speakers. I'm glad we have the Classical app now, because at least that is curated but heck even the kids playlists on Apple Music are pretty iffy at times.
    - zdragnar 3y ago
      My brother had to go through a lot of hoops to lock my nephew out of YouTube kids after he started wandering down some nasty rabbit holes there. Unfortunately, my nephew is mostly non-verbal on the autism spectrum, so it's not the sort of thing you can sit him down and have a conversation about why the content is inappropriate. Content moderation is a very poorly solved problem at scale.
- jjtheblunt 3y ago
  i installed fedora (asahi) on an apple silicon laptop, and it's super useful, and might be an exception to your point.
quux 3y ago
Misleading headline. The root issue, that Vision OS has no support for 180 degree side by side video, isn’t specific to porn. I’m sure there will be 3rd party video players that support that format and other common VR video formats in no time. I have some ripped 3D Blu-rays I’d love to watch on a Vision Pro in SBS format.
- jmward01 3y ago
  Apple has enough product development experience to know this use case exists but I suspect you are right, they didn't support the feature as a whole and the discussion was only partly about the porn use case. The cynic in me suspects the lack of support is more about them preparing an apple friendly (read not friendly to the res of the market) format that they want to force the industry towards.
  - Almondsetat 3y ago
    Apple's default video players are severly lacking in almost all of their platforms. Try to open an mp4 file you downloaded on your iPhone or iPad and you will be presented with one of the most atrocious "players" ever. But that's because Apple has never cared to support on-device video viewing on their mobile devices outside the gallery app. They think people only use streaming apps and websites to consume videos so they haven't bothered with it. I'm sure we will get VLC on the Vision Pro or something similar that will take care of it. Platforms that publish 360 content will have to distribute their own custom solutions
    - voisin 3y ago
      > Apple's default video players are severly lacking in almost all of their platforms Try opening the TV app on a multi monitor Mac. It is nearly god damn impossible to make it full screen on the monitor you want rather than the one it happened to open up on originally (I think based on app bar placement which annoyingly cannot be tied to a specific monitor or made to appear on all monitors)
      - 3y ago
superb_dev 3y ago
Does the VisionPro not support WebVR?
- karlgkk 3y ago
  If you'd read the article, you'd see that it's because Apple hasn't supported SBS video - what porn generally shoots in.
  - superb_dev 3y ago
    Right, but if the Vision Pro supported webXR you would be able to use one of the existing web based video players
    - karlgkk 3y ago
      It does support webXR, it's in beta. They have implied heavily in sessions that it will be out of beta soon. AVP is great but it is clearly unfinished.
- nickthegreek 3y ago
  It is not enabled by default. https://appleinsider.com/inside/apple-vision-pro/tips/how-to-enable-webxr-support-on-apple-vision-pro https://appleinsider.com/inside/apple-vision-pro/tips/how-to...
deleted 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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MarcoZavala 3y ago
[dead]
exitb 3y ago
It’s not about porn, but rather about Apple’s insistence that it’s not a VR headset. They’ll likely not allow any apps that take over the entire user surroundings, especially if they don’t allow six degrees of freedom.
- Shank 3y ago
  I know HN is cynical but really: the headset ships with the ability for immersive environments that replace the entire user’s surroundings, and apps already exist that are fully immersive.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > They’ll likely not allow any apps that take over the entire user surroundings... I'll take that bet. https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/immersive-experiences https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline... https://developer.apple.com/documentation/visionos/creating-fully-immersive-experiences https://developer.apple.com/documentation/visionos/creating-...
jpeter 3y ago
Great title
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
danjl 3y ago
The quality of MV-HVEC (the spatial video format used by Vision Pro) is much better than 180º dual-eye video used widely in porn (and not natively supported by VisionOS). The history of porn indicates they will adopt MV-HVEC faster than anyone else, though it seems Disney and the NBA want to try to move fast too!
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  A very tiny amount of porn customers are willing to shell 3500 for far from perfect goggles. Porn these days, unless peer-to-peer paid on ie tiktok, is about masses. Tiny revenue, but hundreds of millions cases. Lonely hackers will make something work pretty quickly, but for very small market.
  - cooper_ganglia 3y ago
    A small market for now, but it's a smart move if Apple continues development of this headset and there are future generations. If you're the first to get a catalog of 360º videos up for sale, you'll probably dominate the market when/if it catches up with you.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- eksu 3y ago
  I am very curious about MV-HEVC. Why is the quality better, isn’t it just a container? How does compression work vs say a side by side as a single stream in HEVC? Does either format allow them to compress based off of redundant information from the views being so similar?
  - jitl 3y ago
    From http://www.hevc.info/mvhevc http://www.hevc.info/mvhevc > The multiview extension of HEVC (MV-HEVC) provides support for coding multiple views with inter-layer prediction. It is was designed as a high-level syntax only extension to allow reuse of existing decoder components. If it was just a container, you’d need 2x independent HEVC data streams decoded independently into 2x video streams. It sounds like MV-HEVC is a single encoded data stream decoded into multiple video streams.

60 points by ajdude 3y ago

You really shouldn't be surprised. Anything Apple fields is part of their eco system, even the Macs are getting more so with every passing day. Apple would like to impose their values on your hardware, whether you like it or not. You're headed straight for digital Disneyland.

frizlab 3y ago
This has nothing to do with values and everything to do with the lack of support for 180 degree side by side video…
karlgkk 3y ago
While your complaint about Apple is generally true... If you'd read the article, you'd see that it's because Apple hasn't supported SBS video - one of the most common 3d video technologies. It has nothing to do with imposing values. No reason has been given, although "SBS isn't supported to keep porn off their platform" is ludicrous conspiracy.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  It's not a conspiracy, if there is an avenue through which porn could make it onto their platform and Apple has control over that avenue it will be closed. In software, in hardware or through the TOS and a review process. You can count on it.
  - blueblob 3y ago
    Ah yes, because they blocked porn sites in the safari browser and default hosts files, right? Or maybe they don't have control of those?
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      If they could, they would.
  - nickthegreek 3y ago
    A web browser allows porn on your platform. So Apple has failed since the launch of the iPhone to do this. A Developer creating an app that plays Side-by-side 3d Videos is perfectly allowed by ToS.
    - int_19h 3y ago
      If Apple could get rid of web browser in lieu of having everything done via apps, they most certainly would.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    I have porn on my iCloud Drive, photos, even within certain apps (well... adult but not porn. at what point does someone sending you a photo change to porn?), and through the browser. This is factually untrue. While the puritanical nature of the App Store is weird, particularly when they have no issue with drug and sex references in their keynotes. You are way off.
- adrian_b 3y ago
  The fact that SBS, which is the most popular format for 3D movies, not necessarily porn movies, is not supported in a product advertised for its 3D capabilities, after so much time that has been used for preparing its software for the official launch, does not have any decent explanation. Perhaps they did not use specifically porn as the reason for not supporting it, but in any case this is hard to explain otherwise than a measure to make difficult the use of any content that is not provided through Apple, i.e. if this is not anti-porn it is at least an anti-competitive measure.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    It's the same reason that YouTube VR videos aren't supported. From what I've gathered, it's basically that they're mostly too low quality, compared to the AVP's resolution. Apple wants to limit video to only a super premium experience, which they seem to be working on but it hasn't been launched yet. In other words, they don't want the VR video experience to be the same as 4K or 8K SBS on a Quest 3, because then you'll just buy a Quest instead. I'm not defending this, but I am saying there's a logic to it. The AVP isn't anti-porn (I'm sure you can watch the regular 2D kind on the web just fine, Apple isn't limiting your content there), nor is it anti-competitive. It's just not implementing a feature.
    - dylan-m 3y ago
      Quality is a pretty good guess, there. I know nothing about porn, but I've watched a few VR-first films. In my mind, the only good attempt at the genre has been a ten minute real-time rendered thing that invites the viewer to come sit down and look around the room while the story happens around them. Small scale. But it makes sense to me. Flat screen cinema didn't start with Lord of the Rings. Even if it was technically possible, that would have been a disaster. It's very tempting for a filmmaker to carry whatever techniques they are used to in traditional film and use a fancy camera to make it "VR". It takes a long time for the lessons we've learned to actually take root so we can tell a story without throwing the viewer around in some gravity-defying kaleidoscope of headaches. Apple is up against a widespread misconception that VR means motion sickness for a huge number of people. Largely because of cheap garbage like Gear VR, and content designed for it.
ryandrake 3y ago
I've always found Apple's moral position on these kinds of [USA Puritanical] things (porn, gambling, and so on) pretty weird. Of all the tech companies not beholden to the pressures to censor from advertising customers and external brands, Apple is least reliant on these external forces. You'd think they of all companies wouldn't care because a laissez faire attitude wouldn't lose them revenue. Yet, the AppStore has some of the most puritanical rules on the web. Huh...
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  Do they get more revenue from AppStore sales or advertising? At any rate, if it's easy to see puritan-aggravating things, such people might be aggravated into not making a purchase. At Apple's scale that likely turns into something similar with Amazon reducing their page load times by ~100ms to see a ~1% increase in sales.
- nvahalik 3y ago
  > I've always found Apple's moral position ... pretty weird. Honestly, I find them refreshing. Granted, this isn't a technology problem probably so much as an app problem, but in general, the fact that you can't easy find sketchy apps on the App Store easily makes it far easier for me to bring into a family environment. What's _ironic_ about this is that iTunes/Apple Music will gladly show you pornographic music videos/album covers/music EVEN IF you try to avoid them. I contact Apple Support a few months ago because we were listening to one album and then the infinite playlist started spewing lyrical garbage over my speakers. I'm glad we have the Classical app now, because at least that is curated but heck even the kids playlists on Apple Music are pretty iffy at times.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    My brother had to go through a lot of hoops to lock my nephew out of YouTube kids after he started wandering down some nasty rabbit holes there. Unfortunately, my nephew is mostly non-verbal on the autism spectrum, so it's not the sort of thing you can sit him down and have a conversation about why the content is inappropriate. Content moderation is a very poorly solved problem at scale.
jjtheblunt 3y ago
i installed fedora (asahi) on an apple silicon laptop, and it's super useful, and might be an exception to your point.

quux 3y ago

Misleading headline. The root issue, that Vision OS has no support for 180 degree side by side video, isn’t specific to porn. I’m sure there will be 3rd party video players that support that format and other common VR video formats in no time. I have some ripped 3D Blu-rays I’d love to watch on a Vision Pro in SBS format.

jmward01 3y ago
Apple has enough product development experience to know this use case exists but I suspect you are right, they didn't support the feature as a whole and the discussion was only partly about the porn use case. The cynic in me suspects the lack of support is more about them preparing an apple friendly (read not friendly to the res of the market) format that they want to force the industry towards.
- Almondsetat 3y ago
  Apple's default video players are severly lacking in almost all of their platforms. Try to open an mp4 file you downloaded on your iPhone or iPad and you will be presented with one of the most atrocious "players" ever. But that's because Apple has never cared to support on-device video viewing on their mobile devices outside the gallery app. They think people only use streaming apps and websites to consume videos so they haven't bothered with it. I'm sure we will get VLC on the Vision Pro or something similar that will take care of it. Platforms that publish 360 content will have to distribute their own custom solutions
  - voisin 3y ago
    > Apple's default video players are severly lacking in almost all of their platforms Try opening the TV app on a multi monitor Mac. It is nearly god damn impossible to make it full screen on the monitor you want rather than the one it happened to open up on originally (I think based on app bar placement which annoyingly cannot be tied to a specific monitor or made to appear on all monitors)
    - 3y ago

superb_dev 3y ago

Does the VisionPro not support WebVR?

karlgkk 3y ago
If you'd read the article, you'd see that it's because Apple hasn't supported SBS video - what porn generally shoots in.
- superb_dev 3y ago
  Right, but if the Vision Pro supported webXR you would be able to use one of the existing web based video players
  - karlgkk 3y ago
    It does support webXR, it's in beta. They have implied heavily in sessions that it will be out of beta soon. AVP is great but it is clearly unfinished.
nickthegreek 3y ago
It is not enabled by default. https://appleinsider.com/inside/apple-vision-pro/tips/how-to-enable-webxr-support-on-apple-vision-pro https://appleinsider.com/inside/apple-vision-pro/tips/how-to...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

MarcoZavala 3y ago

[dead]

exitb 3y ago

It’s not about porn, but rather about Apple’s insistence that it’s not a VR headset. They’ll likely not allow any apps that take over the entire user surroundings, especially if they don’t allow six degrees of freedom.

Shank 3y ago
I know HN is cynical but really: the headset ships with the ability for immersive environments that replace the entire user’s surroundings, and apps already exist that are fully immersive.
ceejayoz 3y ago
> They’ll likely not allow any apps that take over the entire user surroundings... I'll take that bet. https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/immersive-experiences https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline... https://developer.apple.com/documentation/visionos/creating-fully-immersive-experiences https://developer.apple.com/documentation/visionos/creating-...

jpeter 3y ago

Great title

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

danjl 3y ago

The quality of MV-HVEC (the spatial video format used by Vision Pro) is much better than 180º dual-eye video used widely in porn (and not natively supported by VisionOS). The history of porn indicates they will adopt MV-HVEC faster than anyone else, though it seems Disney and the NBA want to try to move fast too!

saiya-jin 3y ago
A very tiny amount of porn customers are willing to shell 3500 for far from perfect goggles. Porn these days, unless peer-to-peer paid on ie tiktok, is about masses. Tiny revenue, but hundreds of millions cases. Lonely hackers will make something work pretty quickly, but for very small market.
- cooper_ganglia 3y ago
  A small market for now, but it's a smart move if Apple continues development of this headset and there are future generations. If you're the first to get a catalog of 360º videos up for sale, you'll probably dominate the market when/if it catches up with you.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
eksu 3y ago
I am very curious about MV-HEVC. Why is the quality better, isn’t it just a container? How does compression work vs say a side by side as a single stream in HEVC? Does either format allow them to compress based off of redundant information from the views being so similar?
- jitl 3y ago
  From http://www.hevc.info/mvhevc http://www.hevc.info/mvhevc > The multiview extension of HEVC (MV-HEVC) provides support for coding multiple views with inter-layer prediction. It is was designed as a high-level syntax only extension to allow reuse of existing decoder components. If it was just a container, you’d need 2x independent HEVC data streams decoded independently into 2x video streams. It sounds like MV-HEVC is a single encoded data stream decoded into multiple video streams.