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I found this article that seems to paint a contrasting picture. https://archive.is/BCd0w https://archive.is/BCd0w "Commissioned by the American Recyclable Plas
by mealkh 3y ago
I found this article that seems to paint a contrasting picture. https://archive.is/BCd0w https://archive.is/BCd0w
"Commissioned by the American Recyclable Plastic Bag Alliance, the report acknowledges that the total number of plastic bags declined by 60% since the ban—as its backers hoped. But because shoppers still had to carry their groceries home, they needed alternatives. Mostly that meant switching from the thin plastic film bags to the heavier, reusable bags now sold in many supermarkets.
The problem is that most of these alternative bags are made of non-woven polypropylene, which takes much more plastic to make and isn’t widely recycled. And what about the supposed climate benefits? Well, the study finds that, owing to the larger carbon footprint of the heavier, non-woven polypropylene bags, greenhouse gas emissions rose 500%.
The problem is compounded by the way people use these bags. Though intended to be reused many times, the report says 90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times. So they are piling up in landfills and homes. Think of your own behavior in misplacing bags around the house or forgetting to bring them when heading out for groceries."
- Retric 3y agoMisplacing bags in your home is unlikely to continue indefinitely. If nothing else you would run out of room. So it’s likely for someone to have many bags used a few times and lost and the remainder get used a great deal. Therefore what’s important is the average amount of reuse not simply what happens to individual bags. A single bag used 1,000 times makes up for a 9 used a 2-3 times.
- Thorrez 3y agoIs it possible to use a bag 1000 times? California's SB 270 says: > It shall be capable of carrying 22 pounds over a distance of 175 feet for a minimum of 125 uses. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140SB270 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...
- beej71 3y agoIt's really not easy for me to compute how many times each of my canvas bags has been used. But it's probably about 200 on average, since I've been doing this for over a decade and I've only had one canvas bag fail to death. I'd bet 1000 uses is within the realm of possibility, but you'll probably need to do some repairs along the way.
- Thorrez 3y agoOh, I wasn't thinking about canvas bags. What I was thinking about, and what the law is about, is the thick plastic bags I've seen at e.g. Safeway checkout that they charge 10 cents for. Buying these thick plastic bags seems to be what the checkout line guides people to do. Buying a canvas bag would require extra effort. People generally take the path of least resistance.
- marcosdumay 3y agoYes, when they take up too much space, people will throw them on the trash. Or are you expecting a different result?
- beej71 3y agoI guess I was hoping that eventually they'd throw a few in their trunk.
- warkdarrior 3y agoWhy would one throw their trash in the trunk??
- Retric 3y agoReusable bags aren’t trash. So, by placing them in the trunk people save money compared to buying ever more of them.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 3y ago> If nothing else you would run out of room. Yes, from time to time you realize that the entire box full of reusable bags isn't going to be reused. Then you take one of them, stuff it with the others until it's full, and stash that as the "maybe I'll reuse those". Then you take another one, fill that one with the rest, and put it in the trash.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- coding123 3y agoI use them exactly once more - cat litter waste
- anticensor 3y agoI tend to reuse them twice: one more shopping and then becomes a trash can liner.
- Aurornis 3y ago> Though intended to be reused many times, the report says 90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times. So they are piling up in landfills and homes. I could see people forgetting these bags at home for a while as they adjust to their new normal, but the idea that they’re going to be buying these new bags ever other trip to the store because they’re piling up in a room at home for years is hard for me to believe. Given that the conclusion of that article depends on people never getting good at reusing those bags and instead throwing them away or letting them accumulate forever at home, I have a hard time taking it seriously.
- gruez 3y ago>>the report says 90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times. So they are piling up in landfills and homes. >but the idea that they’re going to be buying these new bags ever other trip to the store because they’re piling up in a room at home for years is hard for me to believe. What's likely happening is that they go out to buy something, forgot their bag, and is forced to buy a reusable bag. If enough people are forgetful, the "90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times" seems very plausible to me.
- Wowfunhappy 3y agoWhat happens to me, living in a walkable city without a car (something I'm proud of for environmental reasons): • I'm walking to work / home / a social outing / etc, with no intention of going shopping. • I pass by a store on the way. • I now need a bag. Could I always bring a bag with me when I go out? Yes, but I try to travel as light as possible because I'm walking.
- dfxm12 3y ago• Bags aren't big or heavy • What spur of the moment shopping are you talking about?
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
- okl 3y agoCouldn't imagine buying a damned plastic bag every single time I went shopping for groceries. I've been using the same fabric bags for 15 years. It is such stupidity, being to lazy to pack a bag, that humanity wastes resources on.
- gruez 3y ago>It is such stupidity, being to lazy to pack a bag, that humanity wastes resources on. It's spending resources for convenience. It's not fundamentally different than buying coffee at starbucks (therefore necessitating a plastic lined paper cup).
- teamspirit 3y agoBoth can be true. Either way, both are the reasons why we are where we are with regard to the climate.
- zzzeek 3y agoyou can bring a reusable cup to Starbucks and they will fill it for you, this is not anything new
- Wowfunhappy 3y agoWhat percentage of people do you think actually do this?
- zzzeek 3y agowow where'd those goalposts just go? I was over here, at "buying at Starbucks *necessitates* (OP's term) using a plastic lined, paper cup". Which is false.
- Wowfunhappy 3y agoThe OP (who was not me) should not have said "necessitates". However, I don't think the distinction is significant given how few Starbucks customers use reusable cups.
- niceice 3y ago> Though intended to be reused many times, the report says 90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times. So they are piling up in landfills and homes. Think of your own behavior in misplacing bags around the house or forgetting to bring them when heading out for groceries. I have a hard time believing it's 90%. Seriously? They aren't that cheap and it's easy to keep track of them.
- gruez 3y agoPeople aren't buying new reusable bags because they lost them. They're buying because they went to a store and forgot to bring a bag, and therefore forced to buy a "reusable" bag, even though they already have 10 at home.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago> They aren't that cheap and it's easy to keep track of them. I think some folks may be thinking of different types of reusable bags. Where I live the "default" reusable bags at the grocery store, which are basically pretty similar to disposable but bigger with thicker plastic, are 29 cents. They do sell hardier bags that you can by that are like $1.25. But I think tons of folks throw away those $.29 bags after one or two uses.
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- crazygringo 3y agoExactly this. Heavy duty plastic bags might work great if you always keep them in your car. But I live in NYC where you carry everything by hand -- and people certainly aren't always carrying empty bags with them, the way you might if you had a trunk. There are two supermarkets I go to where they don't have paper bags, but will charge you $0.25 to $0.45 for a heavy duty plastic bag (two sizes). I'd say that about a third of the time the person in front of me buys between 1 to 3 of them. So at least at those locations, the overall usage of plastic has gone way, way up compared to the old thin plastic bags.
- dfxm12 3y agoBut I live in NYC where you carry everything by hand In the NYC I've been to (and large city I live in), everything is carried in a back pack, laptop bag, shoulder bag, etc.
- crazygringo 3y agoThat's what I meant by carrying by hand. In bags. But a lot of people aren't stashing 2 or 4 reusable grocery bags in their laptop bag. And people often aren't carrying any bag at all.
- bmicraft 3y agoWhy would you ever unexpectedly need four bags in addition to your backpack or whatever? Or two for that matter.
- crazygringo 3y agoWhen wouldn't you? When I go grocery shopping, I'm buying probably 20 pounds of veggies, meat, milk, cheese, eggs, etc. along with bulky items like tortilla chips. If you use the woven plastic bags that you carry in your hands (like the old plastic bags but twice the size), you need 4 -- two for each hand. There are also the jumbo super-heavy bags you get from e.g. FreshDirect where you only need one and you sling it over your shoulder, but those things are huge even folded up and I don't want to be carrying around one of those regularly. Folded, they're thicker than my laptop...
- zzzeek 3y agowhy would you cite a "study" that's commissioned by an industry trade group where their entire purpose for existing and for which they are paid millions of dollars is to ensure that plastic bags are not banned?
- zzzeek 3y agooh right, it's odd numbered days that HN is all "There's a reproducibility crisis! 85% of studies are complete garbage!" this is an even numbered day, HN is all "this study done by a fully biased source that's by definition a conflict of interest is fully iron clad and irrefutable!" know your days on HN when each version of reality is in effect!
- browningstreet 3y agoI have 3 Whole Foods reusable bags I’ve been using for over 15 years. I just don’t believe people are using these only 3 times and throwing them away.
- Thorrez 3y agoIf you go Whole Foods and watch a checkout station, what percent of purchases will reuse a bag vs buy a bag. I think the ratio of reuse:buy will be less than 3:1.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- aeternum 3y agoI've thrown away a ton of polypropylene bags because stuff leaked or you just accumulate too many. Those bags are so thick that throwing away one is like throwing away 500 of the other super thin plastic bags. There's no way the equation makes sense for most people no matter how much we want to believe it.
- phatfish 3y agoYou throw them because something leaked. Why not clean it with a cloth? I've used the same 3 long lasting plastic bags for the weekly shop for around 4 years now. I take a couple of thinner ones I reuse when just going to get a few things. Ive had some of those for years as well. I'm in the UK, we went to Canada last year. It was crazy how much disposable plastic i saw walking out the doors of Costco and other large grocery stores. Also, Costco put milk in a plastic bag in Canada! Why not a rigid plastic container that can be recycled?
- lotsofpulp 3y ago> Why not clean it with a cloth? How much does it cost to clean the cloth? How much time and effort relative to the cost of the bag? This is why targeting specific products to reduce consumption is stupid. Just hit all fossil fuels with higher and higher taxes if you want less fossil fuel consumption. Or all products an externalities tax if you want less waste.
- crazygringo 3y agoThey can just get nasty though. When the inside has gotten coated with sticky chicken salmonella juices because of a leaking package, and the bottom has gross dirt from sitting on the sidewalk and subway, and the bag is made of a woven plastic so that the juices and dirt seep in... ...it's entirely understandable that you just trash it rather than attempt to clean it. This is what you carry food and fresh produce in, after all.
- phatfish 3y agoSure if it is horrible it might be necessary, if warm water and disinfectant spray don't sort it out. We have not had our grocery shopping leak that badly that I can remember.
- chimeracoder 3y agoThat "study" was commissioned by a trade group whose sole purpose is to lobby against plastic bag bans, and whose members consist of entities who have a direct profit motive in disposable plastic bag sales. This is, almost literally, equivalent to citing a press release by Big Oil as evidence against anthropogenic climate change. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recyclable_Plastic_Bag_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recyclable_Plastic_Ba...
- gruez 3y agoThat's reason to be suspicious, but not a reason to dismiss it outright. Trials for covid vaccines were done by the manufacturers, who certainly have a profit motive in claiming they're safe and effective. Do you dismiss those trials for similar reasons?
- phatfish 3y agoIs there an equivalent of the FDA for plastic bags?
- chimeracoder 3y ago> Trials for covid vaccines were done by the manufacturers, who certainly have a profit motive in claiming they're safe and effective. Do you dismiss those trials for similar reasons? One is a set of clinical trials, conducted with prepublished scientific methodology peer reviewed, independently evaluated by a regulatory agency, and subsequently independently studied by independent researchers. The other is a self-published press release. Anyone who tries to draw an equivalence between the two either has no idea how the scientific method actually works, or is simply not arguing in good faith.
- dangus 3y agoThis is about as biased a report as one can get! An opinion piece by a Rupert Murdoch editorial staff citing a threatened industry conducting research on itself. I’m highly skeptical of the idea that people are throwing away their reusable bags after 2-3 uses. They’re also hand-waving away the concept of alternative lower carbon disposable materials, because it’s a plastic bag industry association.
- inpdx 3y ago"the report says 90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times." I'm deeply skeptical of this. Who buys a reusable bag then tosses it? I've only ever thrown away one or two that got rips.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y agoI'm not skeptical at all. There are a lot of reusable bags like this, https://www.heb.com/product-detail/h-e-b-reduce-your-boot-print-reusable-shopping-bag/2102345 https://www.heb.com/product-detail/h-e-b-reduce-your-boot-pr..., which cost about a quarter (so not something that would really affect people's saving behavior). My guess is it's something like that famous "daycare late fee" study that was widely discussed after Freakonomics reported on it, https://freakonomics.com/2013/10/what-makes-people-do-what-they-do/ https://freakonomics.com/2013/10/what-makes-people-do-what-t.... Essentially, the fee wasn't high enough to cause parents to need to be on time, instead the fee was more like something to pay off their guilt, so adding the fee caused more lateness in parental pickups. I.e. before there was a late fee, parents would feel somewhat guilty if they were late. After the late fee, they didn't feel bad - after all, they were basically paying to be late. My suspicion with these kinds of bags, which are very cheap and honestly feel just a bit sturdier than disposable baggs, is that the same dynamic is at play. People feel like "I'm a good environmentalist for reusing this bag once or twice" and then toss them.
- echelon 3y agoMe. I've tried again and again, but they all wind up in a pile at home. I forget to empty them and take them. They're never in the car when I need them. I probably have had twenty to thirty reusable bags. Most of them get thrown away. Not everyone is built the same way. I think this is hard/impossible for people with ADHD to manage.
- yunwal 3y agoFWIW, I have ADHD, and once I amassed like 30 of these things, I kept as many as possible stuffed inside one of them in my car. Then, I had like 30 opportunities between then and when I ran out to remember to bring all my bags to the car again. It worked out well. Now my grocery store has a give-a-bag, take-a-bag stand which is even better.
- happytiger 3y agoThis seems like a setup to counter the bag bans by the plastic industry. It’s not like paper bags, which are incredibly compostable and recyclable, didn’t exist before this entire plastic nonsense came to fruition. And they are readily available, domestically produced and work great. All we need are better handles because they aren’t great for carrying long distances and break catastrophically instead of stretching like plastic. Not great.
- chimeracoder 3y ago> This seems like a setup to counter the bag bans by the plastic industry. The "study" cited was literally conducted and written by the plastic industry, so that's exactly what it is.
- DavidWoof 3y ago> Commissioned by the American Recyclable Plastic Bag Alliance AKA the lobbying group for plastic bag manufacturers, a group whose entire purpose is opposing plastic bag bans, quoted by the WSJ editorial board. This is about as bad a source as one could possibly imagine.
- cratermoon 3y agoThis is an interesting attempt by the industry most affected by the bans[1] to reframe the problem. Plastic bag bans address the nature of the system by applying a systemic solution, taking the responsibility off the individual. Here we see the industry lobbying group trying to reframe it to put the responsibility – fault, really – back on the individual. The report more-or-less is saying that the systemic solution doesn't work because individuals are irresponsible. The WSJ editorial doesn't even try to hid its bias. "Think of your own behavior", it says. 1 The ARPBA is connected to the Society of the Plastics Industry, an industry trade group.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y agoThat all makes sense to me, but I'd just add that another issue not discussed there is litter. I used to live downtown by a big grocery store, and close to the store there was a creek that ran by. Before the bag ban there were always tons of plastic grocery bags in the creek and along its banks. After the ban, I'm not saying the creek was pristine (it is an urban creek in a major American city, after all), but there was way, way less plastic bag litter after the ban, and it made the walkway that ran alongside the creek much nicer.
- kyrra 3y agoSounds like a failure of not enforcing a broken windows policy.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y agoNever a fan of suggested "solutions" that are laughably implausible. Even if you support public canings for everyone ever caught dropping a plastic bag, can we not pretend that something like that could ever be implemented in the Western world? Plastic bag bans can.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago>can we not pretend that something like that could ever be implemented in the Western world? it says a lot that we simply dismiss "don't break stuff" as am impossibility in the western world. Wonder what the Easter world does so differently.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y agoI was referring to a legal solution to plastic bag littering, which is what "broken windows theory" refers to. The differences in littering in, say, Japan, have nothing to do with legal differences, because they're cultural. Cultures differ, and they have benefits and downsides. Trying to implement a legal solution to bag littering in the US would work about as well as trying to implement a legal solution in India to get people to stay within their lane when they drive.
- wredue 3y agoI bought rather large plastic totes. Way better than bags. Not as easy to store, mind you, but that’s actually beneficial cause it makes me bring them back out to the car. Forgetting my reusable bags was a major problem.
- avgcorrection 3y agoAnd no one was surprised. Still a wide success for the Environmental Theater: focus all attention on plastic bags (why so specific? plastic is used in way, way too many things already), which is used by consumers. It doesn’t matter if the use of plastic is reduced. Just spin the wheels and point fingers. It’s much simpler than solving environmental problems.
- atlantic 3y agoAlong those lines: instead of banning plastic bags, or bottles, or straws, or whatever, why not simply ban plastic altogether? People managed to do without until the 1950s. Is there any use case for which there are no alternatives?
- bane 3y agoThat's very interesting finding. I can see how people buy the reusable bags more frequently than might be originally though. I often forget that I brought my bags in from my car and have to mentally remember to keep a couple in my trunk for the times when I'm out shopping. To be honest, because I have a car, when I forget, I just forgo the bag entirely and load everything in my trunk anyways. I've settled on using the catering bags from Panera because they - come with catering orders anyway - are incredibly heavy duty, I've used them dozens of times and they still are in great shape - are very large - usually just get trashed after the lunch My workplace caters lunches once a week or so, and so there's been plenty of bags leftover at the end so... edit a quick look on ebay shows that there's a secondary market for the bags where they go for around $10 each.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- skrebbel 3y ago> American Recyclable Plastic Bag Alliance This is a lobby group. Their goal is to produce and sell as much plastic as they can. The more people reuse plastic bags, the less money they make. Their argument is worth as much as that of the tobacco lobby. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong, just that they sure won’t quote any ideas or statistics in favour of reuse. Don’t forget, folks: “recyclable” is an extremely low bar. Most things are recyclable. But many recyclable products are still so expensive (and energy-hungry) to actually recycle that the term is borderline meaningless. Reuse trumps recyclable by a wide margin and anybody telling you otherwise is either working in a very narrow set of industries (eg paper) or malicious.
- devoutsalsa 3y agoLobbying groups are important. Great work was done by the National Frozen Pizza Institute to educate us all on the health benefits of eating frozen pizza => https://web.archive.org/web/20120704101823/http://www.frozenpizzafacts.org/facts-about-frozen-pizza https://web.archive.org/web/20120704101823/http://www.frozen...
- paulmd 3y agoVery healthy except for 6-8th graders, you mean
- up2isomorphism 3y agoCan we get to the fact without first pointing out they are your dislike? This is a very bad argument and gets you no where. In this case, which part of the statement in the above claim is not true?
- lolinder 3y agoPointing out that research was paid for by an organization that has an inherent conflict of interest is an extremely valid argument. It doesn't necessarily mean that the research was biased or shoddy, but it absolutely should cause us to take their conclusions with a healthy helping of salt.
- JumpCrisscross 3y agoIf I remember correctly, the effects of that study were driven by grocery delivery. People would have the bags pile up due to a lack of a bag-return process. (Please double check, though.)
- snakeyjake 3y ago>Though intended to be reused many times, the report says 90% of the new reusable bags are used a mere two or three times. This is easily fixed. I know because I fixed myself and if I can change this behavior anyone can. I've been using the same three cloth bags to carry my groceries once per week for over ten years. That's, at a bare minimum (because they hold more), 1,560 plastic bags not used. How does the carbon carbon footprint and greenhouse gas emissions of 1,560 plastic bags compare to the three "Earthwise EXTRA LARGE Grocery Bag Beach Shopping Tote HEAVY DUTY 12 oz Cotton Canvas Multi Purpose 20" x 14" PROUDLY MADE IN THE USA (Natural)" that I purchased for $13.99 for in 2012? Yes, it took me a while to get in the habit of using them. A frustratingly long time. But it happened. My county recently banned ALL plastic bags so for the occasional drug store or gas station purchase that used to come in a plastic bag I purchased a packable tote that stuffs down to the size of a pack of playing cards and keep it in my center console of my car. That habit was established instantly. I know for an unassailable and irrefutable fact that bans work because I am a volunteer watershed steward. It is my job to poke around storm drains and shorelines in my little section of the Chesapeake Bay to make sure they are clean. Less than 90 days (four big cleanup pushes per year) after a styrofoam ban was enacted several years ago the amount of styrofoam I was personally responsible for picking up off the shoreline plummeted from "a depressingly large shit-ton" down to almost nothing.