7 ms·

I really hope these people gain wider support. They seem so anti-establishment, which implies that the establishment is pro fraud. And that sounds about right

I really hope these people gain wider support. They seem so anti-establishment, which implies that the establishment is pro fraud. And that sounds about right to me. This is a huge problem. When fraud is rewarded over legitimate research we lose so many times. Once when we reward the fraud, again when the fraudulent research is propagated into the corpus, again when we recognize that this has squelched legitimate scientific research in exchange for resources being sent to the fraud. And finally when trust in science falters. There's every chance that the next great scientist is flipping burgers at McDonald's. The problem is much bigger than anyone wants to admit. In some domains a coin flip is just as good as relying on peer reviewed research. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

jltsiren 3y ago
They seem anti-establishment, because you need an anti-establishment attitude to do investigative work like that. If you are the average conformist, you are happy to work within the system, focusing on your personal goals.
- kiba 3y ago
  We also shouldn't confuse people who investigated scientific fraud with necessarily being ant-establishment. After all, being anti-establishment is often associated with scientific quackery.
Frost1x 3y ago
>This is a huge problem. When fraud is rewarded over legitimate research we lose so many times. I’d generalize this further and say we have an underlying economy and society that rewards fraud over what should be happening widespread. It’s happening everywhere and lying seems to be one of the best strategies to success. With competitive pressures increasing, it’s often even worth the risk. This may have always been the case but the population at large seems to be more cognizant of it and taking action on it. Politics, business, everywhere deceit is rampant. It may in some cases be “allowed” forms of lying or skirting around the truth but underlying behavior is the same here: avoiding the truth for one’s own self gain. There’s few if any establishments I trust anymore. I just assume everyone everywhere is lying for their own goals.
- georgeecollins 3y ago
  >> There’s few if any establishments I trust anymore. Sorry, but that's tin foil hat territory. Everyday I trust my bank to handle my money fairly, the gas station to give the right amount of gas, the labels on food and medicine to be accurate, the weather report, etc. etc. I am sure there are problems with virtually every institution that need to be addressed. But I am surrounded by reliable information and trusted actors.
  - sethammons 3y ago
    Society works on trust. That said, my bank/credit card company would not work with us when we were scammed with $10k of obviously fraudulent charges. Our next recourse will have to be legal action. There are reports of gas stations using more ethanol than labeled. I saw a tiktok last week on someone who brought in their own scale to walmart and the packaged meat was labeled at like 6 lbs but was actually under 5. My tax guy has fucked up 3yrs in a row so now I get to become a tax pro. The US govt owes me $40k and is dragging their feet sending me my money. The guy who repaired some external trim only used finish nails so it ripped out in the last wind storm. The company that installed my windows just ignored code and didn't install tempered glass where required so I had to fight them on that when someone pointed it out to me. I could go on and on.
    - operatingthetan 3y ago
      Yeah we need to inspect things carefully because we are getting scammed and lied to all the time. Olive oil being cut, fish being sold as the wrong species, supplements containing random other substances, there are a million examples in products in particular.
      - georgeecollins 3y ago
        Sure so I am going to inspect olive oil for myself?
        3y ago
anonymouskimmer 3y ago
> They seem so anti-establishment, which implies that the establishment is pro fraud. What I'm getting from the article so far is that "the establishment" is actually a bunch of establishments (plural). And thus there are many systems to game, and many incentives to game them.
- croniev 3y ago
  I agree. Saying that "the establishment is pro fraud" is not helping at all, because conforming with such a simple label will make us blind to the actual reasons why fraud occurs. It is not that all fraudulent scientists are part of some cult or get taught to be fraudulent. The fraud rather results out of a long series of seemingly small decisions that stack up to the point where they hire paper mills, all the while not performing enough self-reflection. If you want to combat this, you will not be successfull labeling the people doing this as fraudulent. Some may take offense to this and not listen to you. Rather, apart from systemic change also more reflection and ethical awareness should be promoted (Please stop thinking and teaching that science has nothing to do with ethics - that just allows scientists to be blind to their own faults).
kiba 3y ago
While the problem of fraud is real, exaggerating the extent of the problem is not a good idea either. Otherwise the fraud would be so pervasive that anybody with a PhD attached after name should be distrusted unless proven otherwise.
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  In many of the disciplines with widespread reproducibility crises (e.g. economics) this is already the case.

jltsiren 3y ago

They seem anti-establishment, because you need an anti-establishment attitude to do investigative work like that. If you are the average conformist, you are happy to work within the system, focusing on your personal goals.

kiba 3y ago
We also shouldn't confuse people who investigated scientific fraud with necessarily being ant-establishment. After all, being anti-establishment is often associated with scientific quackery.

Frost1x 3y ago

>This is a huge problem. When fraud is rewarded over legitimate research we lose so many times. I’d generalize this further and say we have an underlying economy and society that rewards fraud over what should be happening widespread. It’s happening everywhere and lying seems to be one of the best strategies to success. With competitive pressures increasing, it’s often even worth the risk. This may have always been the case but the population at large seems to be more cognizant of it and taking action on it. Politics, business, everywhere deceit is rampant. It may in some cases be “allowed” forms of lying or skirting around the truth but underlying behavior is the same here: avoiding the truth for one’s own self gain. There’s few if any establishments I trust anymore. I just assume everyone everywhere is lying for their own goals.

georgeecollins 3y ago
>> There’s few if any establishments I trust anymore. Sorry, but that's tin foil hat territory. Everyday I trust my bank to handle my money fairly, the gas station to give the right amount of gas, the labels on food and medicine to be accurate, the weather report, etc. etc. I am sure there are problems with virtually every institution that need to be addressed. But I am surrounded by reliable information and trusted actors.
- sethammons 3y ago
  Society works on trust. That said, my bank/credit card company would not work with us when we were scammed with $10k of obviously fraudulent charges. Our next recourse will have to be legal action. There are reports of gas stations using more ethanol than labeled. I saw a tiktok last week on someone who brought in their own scale to walmart and the packaged meat was labeled at like 6 lbs but was actually under 5. My tax guy has fucked up 3yrs in a row so now I get to become a tax pro. The US govt owes me $40k and is dragging their feet sending me my money. The guy who repaired some external trim only used finish nails so it ripped out in the last wind storm. The company that installed my windows just ignored code and didn't install tempered glass where required so I had to fight them on that when someone pointed it out to me. I could go on and on.
  - operatingthetan 3y ago
    Yeah we need to inspect things carefully because we are getting scammed and lied to all the time. Olive oil being cut, fish being sold as the wrong species, supplements containing random other substances, there are a million examples in products in particular.
    - georgeecollins 3y ago
      Sure so I am going to inspect olive oil for myself?
      - 3y ago

anonymouskimmer 3y ago

> They seem so anti-establishment, which implies that the establishment is pro fraud. What I'm getting from the article so far is that "the establishment" is actually a bunch of establishments (plural). And thus there are many systems to game, and many incentives to game them.

croniev 3y ago
I agree. Saying that "the establishment is pro fraud" is not helping at all, because conforming with such a simple label will make us blind to the actual reasons why fraud occurs. It is not that all fraudulent scientists are part of some cult or get taught to be fraudulent. The fraud rather results out of a long series of seemingly small decisions that stack up to the point where they hire paper mills, all the while not performing enough self-reflection. If you want to combat this, you will not be successfull labeling the people doing this as fraudulent. Some may take offense to this and not listen to you. Rather, apart from systemic change also more reflection and ethical awareness should be promoted (Please stop thinking and teaching that science has nothing to do with ethics - that just allows scientists to be blind to their own faults).

kiba 3y ago

While the problem of fraud is real, exaggerating the extent of the problem is not a good idea either. Otherwise the fraud would be so pervasive that anybody with a PhD attached after name should be distrusted unless proven otherwise.

bugglebeetle 3y ago
In many of the disciplines with widespread reproducibility crises (e.g. economics) this is already the case.