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FDA says 561 deaths tied to recalled Philips sleep apnea machines
- sand500 3y agoThe article doesn't explain how these machines caused the deaths but the FDA announcement hints to it > A wide range of injuries has been reported in these MDRs, including cancer, pneumonia, asthma, other respiratory problems, infection, headache, cough, dyspnea (difficulty breathing), dizziness, nodules, and chest pain.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- wkat4242 3y agoYeah the reason for the recall is the foam inside disintegrating and being blown into the lungs. I have two affected machines (one for each place I regularly sleep, I bought two so I didn't have to keep dragging them around). One of them is so bad that if I let it blow through a facemask for a day, the inside is all black. The air also smells really awful, like plastic fumes. Strange enough the other one which I use a lot more regularly fares a lot better. Unfortunately Philips still didn't bother replacing mine. They are an awful company to deal with. I registered them over 2 years ago. Only last September I got an email back asking me to confirm some details. Since then again nothing. They don't even bother replying to requests for a timeline. I still use the other machine regularly but it's also starting to taint masks when I test it with them. The local health service (I'm in Europe) lent me another brand but I really need these replaced. The disregard for their customers' lives is really appalling. Not surprised people have actually died. I paid big money for them too, 800 and 600 euro roughly (one of them is a full auto, the other isn't). A lot of money for what is basically a pressure fan in a box.
- quasarj 3y agoYou're still using it?!
- wkat4242 3y agoYeah of course. Especially while I didn't have an alternative yet. I have this machine for a reason and untreated sleep apnea is also dangerous long term. It's also very hard to live while sleeping so badly. I'm not using the bad one though. The one that smells and blackens face masks. Only the other one. I regularly let it blow into a mask for a day to verify.
- tombert 3y agoHave you considered the oral appliances? They don't work if your apnea is really severe but they're pretty awesome if it works for you.
- wkat4242 3y agoI tried one before I had the machine but it gave me really painful teeth and didn't help enough. I used to wake up with really painful teeth and I also felt them starting to misalign. Like they were pushing my teeth around like braces.
- TheCapeGreek 3y agoYeah, oral appliances don't fix the actual problem: tongue slacking into the back of the throat. It's the same reason a chin strap will just make you choke. Supposedly you can "train" your tongue to stay in position with tongue & jaw exercises, but I saw no effect.
- euroderf 3y agoOral appliance worked for me. It was sufficient to get my jaw in the right position.
- tombert 3y agoNot the OP, and I don't use a CPAP, but just living with sleep apnea is kind of horrible, and not harmless. It might be genuinely worth the small risks associated with the affected machines if the alternative is having to go back to untreated apnea.
- Kerbonut 3y agoGo to their secured email and email the documents including a current prescription for the appropriate machine (bipap vs autosv vs cpap etc). They have a call back number in the secure email, give them a call if needed. I got mine replaced after a lot of frustration but it was worth it.
- wkat4242 3y agoI don't have a current prescription because the loaner machine was given to me instead. I did have one when I ordered the original of course. Though I lived in a different country back then. But I can probably get a new prescription. Where do you find this secure email? I don't know what you mean, I only have the email address they emailed me from. Maybe that secure email is a US thing?
- Kerbonut 3y agoYea, my perspective is as a US citizen living in the US so YMMV.
- theGnuMe 3y agoThat's like really bad, long term is there a risk of lung tissue fibrosis? I would expect it. I have the resmed but honestly I think a dental appliance might be better.
- wkat4242 3y agoI also have a resmed now on loan. Way better machine yes. But I don't know how long I'll have the loaner for and I want safe machines (that I paid a lot of money for) so I don't constantly have to drag it from place to place. That's why I got two in the first place. > That's like really bad, long term is there a risk of lung tissue fibrosis? No idea to be honest. I'm not a doctor, just a patient.
- p1mrx 3y ago> if I let it blow through a facemask for a day, the inside is all black CPAP, you were the chosen one! It was said that you would bring balance to the respiratory system, not leave it in darkness!
- MOARDONGZPLZ 3y agoThis is literally killing hundreds of people.
- p1mrx 3y agoDarth Vader is fictionally killing billions of people.
- rightbyte 3y ago> One of them is so bad that if I let it blow through a facemask for a day, the inside is all black. This problem seem easy to recreate in a workshop or lab. There is really no excuse for this.
- mardifoufs 3y agoIt was recalled there too, right? and pulled immediately in Europe too after this became public?! Does that mean they don't have to fix it or replace it immediately? Even car manufacturers are quicker to deal with recalls, even for much less dangerous stuff...
- sizzle 3y agoCan you remove the foam if the only function is to reduce sound according to what I read? Or can you upgrade it to like a steel non-microbial mesh material?
- SadTrombone 3y agoThere's a kit on Amazon for the Dreamstation that contains the same piece except without the silencing (poison) foam. I replaced the part about a year ago and the sound is not that much louder. It doesn't keep myself or my wife up at all, at least.
- sizzle 3y agoAlso the black stuff in the facemask could be killing you, find a great personal injury lawyer and get that stuff tested. If it’s foam you might be in for a big payday for them damaging your lungs.
- wyldfire 3y agoIt does explain it, in the second, third paragraphs: > The FDA said that since April 2021 it has received more than 116,000 medical device reports of foam breaking down ... amid reports they were blowing gas and pieces of foam into the airways of those using the devices.
- gifvenut 3y agoThe reporting in this leaves a lot of questions. I can understand pieces of foam, but that the machines were harming people by blowing _gas_? The air that we breathe is a mixture of gases. What other type of harmful gas could a CPAP machine blow?
- lrasinen 3y agoVolatile organic compounds from the foam breaking down. Formaldehyde was mentioned in some of the reporting.
- matheusmoreira 3y agoPolyester polyurethane particles which may or may not be visible to the naked eye. These particles can break down further into volatile organic compounds which are vapors. All of these are toxic and carcinogenic.
- sizzle 3y agoCan this subpar foam be taken out and replaced with a non-microbial metal mesh or something? The use case for the foam was noise reduction it said in the article.
- elric 3y agoWhile I'm not disputing that Philips Respironics are an evil bunch of cunts, half of those symptoms are strongly correlated with just having sleep apnea and/or being on CPAP, even without cancer foam. Dirty water tanks/hoses can cause infections or cough. Having sleep apnea is often associated with having asthma. Exacerbation can lead to pneumonia, etc. I'm assuming the FDA didn't just look at these patients in isolation, but compared them to non-Philips-CPAP controls and to untreated apnea controls?
- bob_theslob646 3y ago>The FDA said that since April 2021 it has received more than 116,000 medical device reports of foam breaking down in Philips CPAP (continuous positive airway pressure) machines and BiPAP sleep therapy devices If I'm doing the math correctly...they are settling for $400 million...that's only~$3500 per complaint...that's not much money by any means...for a product that can cause cancer. Please correct me if I am wrong.
- BobbyTables2 3y agoLook at it on the bright side, they paid about 1000X per person compared to Equifax! (I jest). It seems far worse (per capita) to get in a single fender bender than it does to cover up defective airbags for decades… “Numbers sanctify my good friend” - Monsieur Verdoux
- icegreentea2 3y agoFrom the class action settlement website (https://www.respironicscpap-elsettlement.com/ https://www.respironicscpap-elsettlement.com/) it looks like the $400 million is the estimated minimum, and this settlement is strictly about replacement of machines. As both the article and settlement website say: > The settlement does not impact or release any claims for personal injuries or medical monitoring relief, according to the administrator with the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Pennsylvania. In otherwords, there can be additional penalties/lawsuits more directly related to health damages.
- life-and-quiet 3y agoAffected (former) user. This settlement only applies to financial damages, I believe. If you read the link, or the class action documentation they sent to me, it does not apply to future costs related to medical monitoring or care.
- pompino 3y ago>for a product that can cause cancer. Wonder if they'll ever go after alcohol and processed meat as known group 1 carcinogens (i.e. not the flimsy 'in the state of california' kind)
- selimthegrim 3y agoThe ex AG of Louisiana led a big crusade against these machines and personally suffered from them. May he rest in peace.
- tombert 3y agoI was recently diagnosed with sleep apnea. I'm on the very lower end of "moderate" (about 16 interruptions per hour), which fortunately means that the oral appliances are effective. I've been suspicious of myself having sleep apnea for quite awhile now, and I held off on getting an official diagnosis in no small part because those CPAP machines give me anxiety; I'm somewhat convinced that I would never really get used to them, and I would wake up feeling like a head crab was attacking me. I had also heard some horror stories (not dissimilar to the Phillips machines) that really held me off. I'm very grateful that the oral appliances exists, now even more so.
- x3n0ph3n3 3y agoI wouldn't tolerate them without the Dreamwear mask, which is the least annoying mask available. At this point, I much prefer sleep with the CPAP than without it.
- adrr 3y agoWhere are you getting an oral appliance?
- tombert 3y agoMy sleep specialist doctor prescribed it. They had to do a scan of my mouth and after 3 weeks I got the mouthpiece in the mail.
- adrr 3y agohow do you like it? Any issues with jaw pain or change in your bite? Also did your insurance cover it? I heard they are similarly priced as CPAPs.
- operatingthetan 3y agoThere are options on amazon for under $80 if you just want to try it and see if it helps.
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- chrisgd 3y agoPro Publica has done a lot of good reporting on this topic. https://www.propublica.org/article/philips-kept-warnings-about-dangerous-cpaps-secret-profits-soared https://www.propublica.org/article/philips-kept-warnings-abo...
- icegreentea2 3y agoBlood boiling. A complete failure of the QMS. I know the FDA wants/needs to keep Philips around to manage the recall, and like... people with CPAPs need them, but I really wish they would just terminate all of Philips' licenses/approvals/clearances right now. I hope the DOJ has bigger penalties to lay down. FDA's post market surveillance relies on manufacturers to be sufficiently honest. Philips sat on thousands of reports for over a decade. This is simply unacceptable. For the FDA to be able to say with a straight face that their post market surveillance has value, they need stronger assurances that manufactures will play by the rules, and I feel that means really making an example of Philips here. I've worked in medical devices before, and I am quite aware of how easily QMS and SOP can diffuse responsibility. It's so easy as a line worker/line manager/middle manager to shrug and go "well, I did my role as prescribed by QMS and SOP - it's not my problem that we're sitting on 10k medical device reports that we should be notifying the FDA about". And that's a huge problem. Obviously upper management has the most blame here, but no one involved is blameless. The QMS has some boilerplate about how everyone is responsible for quality. If that's true, then everyone involved is also responsible in some part. I know terminating all of Philips' licenses for like 5 years or something will basically make a lot of people jobless. But like 500 people died because some assholes decided to go for the $$$, and everyone else involved let it happen. That's not an acceptable corporate standard.
- gurchik 3y agoThe FDA is preventing Philips from selling any sleep apnea devices in the US for a few years until some unspecified manufacturing quality control problem is fixed. This is interesting because the new devices don’t use the same foam and don’t have this defect. I’m unsure if this ban affects ventilators which were also affected by the foam defect. Still, according to the ProPublica reporting Philips already made bank the last few years. They’re also trying to limit damages by putting all blame on the US subsidiary.
- pxeboot 3y agoIs this evidence that micro plastics are a serious health concern? If breathing air after it has flowed over foam is bad, we are slowly exposing ourselves to the same chemicals in hundreds of other ways.
- tomtheelder 3y agoI think there’s plenty of reason to be concerned about microplastics, but not necessarily. There are plenty of fine particulates that you could eat to no ill effect which are very harmful if inhaled.
- throwup238 3y agoAlmost any particulate matter that you can breathe in is a concern but microplastics are mostly ingested.
- akira2501 3y agoThis is not evidence of that. This machine delivers air at a positive pressure to force it through patients airways. The manufacturer used polyurethane foam instead of silicon foam. Moisture can make this foam break down. The device is likely to accumulate moisture due to it's purpose. There are multiple unique factors here and microplastics are not involved.
- NoPicklez 3y agoSorry but what you've said doesn't invalidate or answer what they asked. The positive pressure used to force air through patients airways may have included broken down particulates of polyurethane foam? Of which may have been a major contributing factor to those health problems listed?
- syndicatedjelly 3y agoI believe you are “technically” correct, but colloquially, “microplastic health effects” are believed to come from drinking water and food. Not industrial pollution, which is apparently what Philips’ machine is microdosing their users with.
- m3kw9 3y ago561 more lawsuits incoming
- lepus 3y agoWatching the way they handled this recall so poorly got me to do whatever it took to reduce my snoring and mild sleep apnea down to almost nothing (mouth/throat/tongue exercises did the most followed by head positioning). The stories of people who relied on their CPAP caught up in it were heartbreaking and nerve wracking. Edit: I used a combination of the Snore Gym app and Vik Veer's videos on Youtube. After a couple months my snoring became barely audible, but it doesn't always work for everyone. I was tilting my head down at night which blocked off my throat somewhat, so I lifted my head up higher with a bigger pillow.
- jcims 3y agoAny good references for the exercises?
- vorador 3y agoCould you detail a bit what exercises you did and how you changed head position? Thanks!
- nurettin 3y agoI did none of that. Instead, what worked for me was to change my lifestyle. Paced walk half an hour and lift for ten minutes everyday. Reduce smoking to rare occasions. Eat less, lose weight, and finally get those teeth done.
- dperrin 3y ago
- pyuser583 3y agoI was directly affected by this. The recall was handled by a third party company, with a third party domain. All communications came from the third party domain. I was unable to communicate with anyone from the manufacturers domain. So I had to respond to emails from shadysounding.com and give my info to phone numbers on www.shadysounding.com. I’m glad the recall list wasn’t leaked. Otherwise there would be tons of ID theft.
- damontal 3y agoIt can still be leaked.
- renewiltord 3y agoA HN trope is that software engineers are slipshod and real engineers are licensed craftsmen. Let me tell you this, I haven't killed anyone and if software I'm about to write would, I just wouldn't. The standards of these industries have a long way to go before they catch up to us.
- mise_en_place 3y agoTech has less of a competency crisis than other industries. Even though they have better ISO standards supposedly.
- hindsightbias 3y agoHN is filled with people who think they could do better than Boeing, FAA ATC and medical EHRs. Every one of them is wrong.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ffgjgf1 3y agoI don’t agree. It’s not about being a better engineer than those at Boeing etc. (you might be right about that but it’s totally tangential). It’s about being open and transparent about potential risks, being transparent about your mistakes and not outright illegally concealing them and cheating.
- Dylan16807 3y agoThe Boeing problem is management and easy to do better than. Penny-pinch less on safety and inspections and leave everything else alone. I've never seen someone say they could do better than air traffic controllers themselves. If this is about paying more and hiring more people... that's also something the average person is capable of handling.
- selimthegrim 3y agoYou do realize some of us here actually have worked in those industries.
- JoshTko 3y agoLike this is just a tier below 9/11 level of disaster... I'm sure we'll see an appropriate response.
- gurchik 3y agoI was reading the original source yesterday and it said 385. It must have been increased today. Experts have said that it could take years to know the full impact. Will the FDA keep us updated? https://web.archive.org/web/20240131023937/https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/safety-communications/update-certain-philips-respironics-ventilators-bipap-machines-and-cpap-machines-recalled-due https://web.archive.org/web/20240131023937/https://www.fda.g...
- methou 3y agoAround 2022 I was considering getting a new gen of Philips Dreamstation as a replacement for a beaten Resmed. Eventually I settled with a newer model of what I was using (AirSense 11). Philips had a very good reputation in the community, their accessories are more affordable, more “boring” is a good way. I really preferred a company that way, but after all it sounds like I’ve dodged a bullet.
- epistasis 3y agoRight now the FDA is trying to bring lab developed tests (LDTs) under FDA regulation, and their list of reasons is a bunch of anecdata, nothing like 500 deaths. FDA does not provide evidence that they will provide better controls or improved safety, just that there were very minor reports from LDTs. CPAP machines were reclassified to class II devices in 2018, which requires that companies perform QMS and tell the FDA, and sometimes get audited. LDTs require Lab Directors to take responsibility for the quality of a test at the risk of their license. Auditing is performed by professional societies, to high level. Public health labs and hospitals are furious about the extra, unnecessary paperwork that FDA taking this action would cause, for no apparent benefit. The FDA allowing more than 500 deaths to happen is a massive indictment of their quality of auditing, and should signal that if they take over LDT regulation, more lives will be at risk.
- occz 3y agoI used one of these machines for a few years but stopped around 3 years ago. Should I be worried about long-term damage, and if so, how do I go about that? I never noticed anything strange while using it, fwiw.
- hatenberg 3y agoThe only way these things get stopped is by having C-level go to jail.
- jader201 3y agoCould something like this cause IPF? My father passed away a few years ago, after being diagnosed with IPF only about 1-1.5 years before passing. He had no past of being exposed to anything hazardous. His pulmonologist couldn’t ever figure out what could’ve caused it. He was diagnosed with sleep apnea probably 15 or so years before passing, and used a CPAP nightly. He eventually developed a nasty cough that never went away, and was finally diagnosed with IPF. I’m not looking for any sort of retribution, more just possible answers or even just clues, since it’s not clear whether it was related to anything hereditary (I have 3 siblings). And to be clear, I’m not even sure what brand/model he used (though my mom would likely know). So there’s a decent chance it’s unrelated.
- jader201 3y agoI cross-posted this in a related thread [1], and @bagels dropped [2] this article that suggests it may be related: https://www.aboutlawsuits.com/pulmonary-fibrosis-cpap-foam-lawsuit/#:~:text=Pulmonary%20fibrosis%20is%20a%20severe,for%20permanent%20injuries%20and%20disabilities https://www.aboutlawsuits.com/pulmonary-fibrosis-cpap-foam-l... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39225674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39225674 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39226537 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39226537
- diob 3y agoJesus, wondering if I need to get checked out. I used one of these models for over 5 years :(
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- apexalpha 3y agoAs someone from the Netherlands, the mismanagement at Philips has been almost physically painful to witness. Philips used to be one of the big ones, like GE or Samsung. The mismanagement and slow deathmarch of a giant. They used to own ASML, they used to own NXP, they owned Panasonic Batteries production I think, they had 30% of all shares in TSMC. I mean you can forgive a single misstep, but if every single company you sell manages to becomes a de facto global leader in its industry the lack of foresight is something for the history books. In hindsight, when the business men took over and moved the HQ to Amsterdam, where all the business people are, rather than in Eindhoven, where it was founded and where all the R&D and tech is, was the beginning of the end.
- mschuster91 3y agoIt was just the same with Siemens, at a time one of Germany's most formidable industry giants... all split and sliced up by the MBA sharks. Truly sad to see. On the other hand, it can be said that it can still go worse than that... just look at Boeing and how far they have fallen.
- fransje26 3y ago> In hindsight, when the business men took over and moved the HQ to Amsterdam, where all the business people are, rather than in Eindhoven, where it was founded and where all the R&D and tech is, was the beginning of the end. Hey! That sounds exactly like what happened to a US plane manufacturer that has regularly been in the news the last few years. But Philips has a slight lead in the death count for now.
- glimshe 3y agoI remember Philips from when it was a synonym of quality and advanced technology. After being burned many times in the past 10 years, I just said enough is enough and won't ever buy anything with the Philips brand again.
- yourusername 3y agoPhilips doesn't actually make any of that stuff. All of its consumer facing brands have been spun out or sold off. When you buy Philips headphones you're buying headphones by whatever Chinese company has the license this year.
- Giorgi 3y agoDamn it! and you would thought going to well-known brand instead of Chinese crap would be more safe when it comes to somewhat medical machines. They need to be pushed to bankruptcy.
- runsWphotons 3y agoHow do they determine when one of these machines caused a death?
- RecycledEle 3y agoAs the user of a Phillips Resprionics AirSense 10, I have a few thoughts. 1. The breakdown of foam is inevitable over time, maybe it should have been easily replaceable. 2. You can have my CPAP when you pry it from my cold dead fingers. I love my CPAP. It keeps me alive, and I'll swallow some foam to keep it. 3. Why isn't there an inline filter someone made to attach to the standard slimline (or heated) tubing that catches the foam chunks? Standard care instructions would be to check and empty it daily. If there is foam in it, immediately replace the foam piece (which I already said should have been user replaceable.) Maybe the foam WAS the filter, and such filters will always break down over time, especially in a device that gets tens of thousands of hours of use blowing humidified and heated air through it. 4. If a more expensive piece if foam would have fixed this, the idiot who did not demand such better foam should be called out publicly. 5. CPAPs save lives, and I think some mortality is expected/allowed if it gives better performance in trade. 6. There may soon be a shortage of these machines.
- InCityDreams 3y agoEnjoy your walks.
- lijok 3y agoYou just know the people that brought this up internally at Philips were told “it’s not that simple, we can’t just…”. Why is every CEO that held the reins during this debacle at Philips not in jail right now for manslaughter?
- dns_snek 3y agoBecause after decades of inbreeding between the legislators, law enforcement, and corporations, the justice system is completely broken.
- dash2 3y agoI have a strong aversion to comments like this, because they come across as extremely generic. Are you really very knowledgeable about the Dutch justice system, that being where Philips is headquartered? Philips are gonna lose at least $400m from this: what makes you so certain that the justice system is "completely broken", or that manslaughter charges are what they deserve? Have you compared the justice system with, let's say, Russian justice or Zimbabwean justice? I think the latter are a great deal more broken. Casual cynicism is as foolish as casual naivety, and more toxic and dangerous.
- flandish 3y agoBecause when a corporation has put profit over people and the people were harmed or killed, that corporation deserves to be completely dismantled and the owners (yes: shareholders too) deserve jail. Until capitalism stops treating people like they are a renewable resource to squeeze profit from - capitalists need to be put on notice that acting like criminals means they get treated like criminals. Stop. Pretending. There. Are. Good. Corporations.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dns_snek 3y agoThey killed at least 561 people, knew about it, covered it up for years, and you want to debate whether manslaughter charges might be appropriate? Any justice system which allows that to happen without imprisoning the people responsible for the rest of their lives is completely broken, says me. It's not casual cynicism either, at this point it's professional cynicism because we've all seen this film 1000 times before and we know how it typically ends. Personally I'd reserve the use of words such as "toxic" and "dangerous" for Philips' CPAP machines and their leadership. They're going to pay less than $1 million per victim while their annual profits are in the billions. Would you feel good about that amount if they killed your dad, mom, brother, sister, son or daughter?
- flandish 3y agoMy stepdad died, this past weekend, and his cause on the death cert was apnea. He used his machine religiously. I need to stop by mom’s house and see which he used. It’s different than mine which is not the recalled type.
- Tokkemon 3y agoVery sorry for your loss.
- this_steve_j 3y agoTechAltar on youtube posted a video last year about the decline of Philips. They apparently just excel at toothbrushes, smart bulbs, and shavers nowadays, and cash in on the name through licensing. [1] It is an unfortunate tragedy that so many people died because a corporation did the wrong things. The US FDA has many flaws to be sure, and they are not known for making fast decisions. It sounds like more lives could have been saved. A member of my family fortunately stopped using their device when it was recalled and has struggled to find a replacement. [1] https://youtu.be/WE58YisgFeQ?si=3mWRxg-b9WOPFKQm https://youtu.be/WE58YisgFeQ?si=3mWRxg-b9WOPFKQm
- AmericanChopper 3y ago> They apparently just excel at toothbrushes, smart bulbs, and shavers nowadays Maybe in the consumer space. But they’re still a huge conglomerate, and one of the biggest MedTech companies in the world. I’m not questioning their malfeasance here, but I doubt it’s going to impact sales on their MRI, CT, EKG… devices very much.
- this_steve_j 3y agoFair point, the apparent shift in their consumer electronics division (a decline in innovation) may be partially or entirely unrelated to the factors leading to this incident. However the brand as a whole is not enjoying its day in the sun, and I hope more people do not get hurt or worse.
- mardifoufs 3y agoThe same exact thing happened to Olympus. For some reason medtech is where corporations go to sleep, and make tons and tons of money haha.
- marcosdumay 3y ago> For some reason Yeah, heavy regulation is that reason. Somehow, heavy regulation that doesn't kick-in when they do something wrong, but only kicks-in when a smaller company wants to make a first product. But well, it's an area that needs regulation. It's just the format that isn't looking good.
- mihaic 3y agoWhat was most shocking to me was not the corporate incompetence (I'm used to that), but the fact that 5 million devices had been recalled. I had no idea there were so many people that used a sleep apnea machine. I'm wondering if common wisdom will change dramatically in the next 50-100 years on human lifestyles, and most of these diseases will be largely resolved (like gout was for the upper classes of a few centuries ago).
- mechhacker 3y agoCaught that you mentioned gout. I recently got gout when I really pushed my body hard by running 4x my normal distance in one week, still worked out, kept eating lots of junk (lots of sugary stuff), and drinking 3-4 drinks a night regularly. I also got a cold. Right after that, I got hit with massive toe pain on one foot. Thankfully it was just a little bit of prednisone but it caused me to back off drinking and eat less sweet things. I'm relatively fit (~35" waist, 203-205ish pounds at 6'1"), but I also dropped down about 5 pounds (was about 208-210) after that and will probably continue to lose more.
- InCityDreams 3y agoI suffer from gout, and I'm not a few centuries old (yet).
- mechhacker 3y agoWhat do you do for it?
- post_break 3y agoI'm in shape, "healthy" but I have a thick neck that causes my issue. It's not just eating junk food and being fat.
- auntienomen 3y agoSleep apnea is extremely common. And it appears to be correlated with having had corrective orthodontics, so may in fact be more common than previously.
- matheusmoreira 3y agoIt seems only US residents are elligible for this recall and compensation. Seems like I'll have to pursue my own legal action.
- mardifoufs 3y agoYeah this is what I don't get. Why wasn't it recalled by other health agencies before or after? Is the defect specific to the north american market?
- matheusmoreira 3y agoI just contacted my lawyers. Turns out brazilian authorities suspended the import and sale of many Philips CPAP machines about 8 months ago. They'll help me get my money back. I'll be consulting a doctor too in order to see if there's any evidence that I've been harmed. I hope for their sake that my airways and lungs are fine. > Why wasn't it recalled by other health agencies before or after? I don't know about other countries but the situation here in Brazil is similar. > Is the defect specific to the north american market? Unlikely.
- Hackbraten 3y agoI hope the victims are going to hire John Barylick for their lawsuits against Philips. Barylick knows his way around cheap PU foam that emits toxic particles in lethal doses. He helped the victims of the 2003 Station Nightclub fire, where 100 people died, mainly due to a toxic combination of PU and PE foam that was used for soundproofing. [1] Watch his talk [2] if you feel you can stomach the horrendous details. It includes an excerpt from a bootleg digital sound recording made during the disaster. (The digital tape was later found amidst the ashes, next to the body of one of the victims, and fully restored.) [1]: https://www.bu.edu/articles/2013/damages-station-nightclub/ https://www.bu.edu/articles/2013/damages-station-nightclub/ [2]: https://youtu.be/zUndJG44Moc https://youtu.be/zUndJG44Moc
- diob 3y agoI do honestly wonder what the next step is for folks like me who are affected by this. Does Philips pay my future medical bills if I get sick? Or do I just get a "we're sorry"?
- Hackbraten 3y agoLawyer up. Anything else would be an unfair match. They have a legal team after all.
- diob 3y agoAs a normal individual, I doubt I could afford a lawyer that would be a match for them.
- sizzle 3y agoSee a pulmonologist and let them know you’ve been potentially inhaling micro-foam from this device, see if you can document your lung progression from healthy to diseased if that foam dust is just sitting in the lungs.
- diob 3y agoGenuine thanks, I'll look into scheduling this!
- Hackbraten 3y agoTherac-25 meets the Station Nightclub fire. Will people ever learn?
- gizmodo59 3y agoI got diagnosed with sleep apnea due to “Laryngeal Apparatus- Collapse of epiglottis.” Impression: DSL, IHT. Circumferential pharyngeal wall collapse in the Nasopharynx and Oropharynx. Epiglottis falling backwards. The doctor told me there is no surgery or anything else but only CPAP as the solution :( I dread of a day when there is no electricity or the machine stopping working. Posting it here to see if anyone else knows a good doctor or have a similar issue!
- InCityDreams 3y ago1. A UPS?
- pyinstallwoes 3y agoI use a RedMed. I wish I didn't have to. Anyone successfully 'lower their sleep apnea?' what protocol?
- candiddevmike 3y agoI had UPPP surgery. It wasn't pleasant, but after a follow on sleep study I no longer need a machine.
- pyinstallwoes 3y agoWhat’s that imply, what was it like? Why unpleasant? What made you decide to do that?
- RCitronsBroker 3y agoplease don’t take this with offense, answering this question inherently involves assuming things about you. But as far as the literature i have read goes, at least 70% of OSA cases stem from obesity. [1] As you probably know, the severity of OSA is quantified in something called the apnea-hypopnea index. For every SINGLE point of BMI reduction (5-8lbs depending on height), you achieve an AHI reduction of 6.7%. That’s absolutely massive. [2] It’s still multifactorial, one’s anatomy can be varyingly predisposed for OSA, sometimes to the point of causing problems without obesity. But in general, that’s one hell of a bet. !! I’m a medical student. I have not yet achieved the status of approbated physician. Please adjust your trust accordingly. I don’t think i have to spell out the difference between informed medical advice and comments on HN, my comment is already patronizing enough as is, but regardless. [1]Resta, O., et al. "Sleep-related breathing disorders, loud snoring and excessive daytime sleepiness in obese subjects." International journal of obesity 25.5 (2001): 669-675. [2] Fattal D, Hester S, Wendt L. Body weight and obstructive sleep apnea: a mathematical relationship between body mass index and apnea-hypopnea index in veterans. J Clin Sleep Med. 2022 Dec 1;18(12):2723-2729. doi: 10.5664/jcsm.10190. PMID: 35929587; PMCID: PMC9713905.
- elric 3y agoI'll keep saying this, but sleep apnea causes obesity. Asking someone with sleep apnea to lose weight to improve their apnea, is a helluva task.
- 1letterunixname 3y agoLike Boeing, a monopoly and lobbying power leads to "self-regulation" that gets people killed. The FDA, Congress, and Philips share blame.
- Tokkemon 3y agoExcept Philips isn't really a monopoly here.
- spacecadet 3y agoI worked at an agency in 2007-2008 that did some software work for Phillips related to CPAP machines. I remember they were not great clients to work with, they didn't continue after the short project.
- Waterluvian 3y agoI have a CPAP that has run for 5-8 hours a night every night for 9 years without any servicing. It’s amazing how robust medical devices can be. My new one has LTE so that people know when I’m asleep to rob me, and a ton of other annoying “modern” features so I’m hoping this old one just keeps on going.
- post_break 3y agoResmed? You can disconnect the LTE antenna.
- marstall 3y agomy mandibular advancement device has been a very effective replacement for my CPAP!
- ThomasBHickey 3y agoI use an oral sleep appliance fitted by a dentist that specializes in treating sleep problems. Works well, but does take some getting used to.
- sehansen 3y agoFrom a quick search of the FDA's adverse event database I only found five reports of events relating to the Philips Dreamstation from before 2020; only the fourth could related to the foam-dust: One relating to filter problems: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/detail.cfm?mdrfoi__id=6442292&pc=BZD&device_sequence_no=1 https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/d... One relating to skin irritation: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/detail.cfm?mdrfoi__id=6820488&pc=BZD&device_sequence_no=1 https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/d... One with WiFi connectivity issues preventing configuration(!): https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/detail.cfm?mdrfoi__id=7179053&pc=BZD&device_sequence_no=1 https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/d... One waking up with a burning sensation in their nose and throat: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/detail.cfm?mdrfoi__id=8069558&pc=BZD&device_sequence_no=1 https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/d... One shut down during the night leading to too-low oxygen levels leading to hospitalization and death: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/detail.cfm?mdrfoi__id=8475436&pc=MNS&device_sequence_no=1 https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/d... It boggles the mind that Philips would chose to report the WiFi complaint, but not the foam-dust complaints. To me it makes it seem even more likely that this issue was deliberately suppressed by management.
- 2devnull 3y agoSleep apnea is mostly a grift. Doctors go along with it because they don’t really care for obese people. It’s pretty scandalous if you look into it. The sleep apnea industry exists to sell machines first and foremost. Very little science involved.
- elric 3y agoPlease stop propagating this "only obese people have sleep apnea" bullshit. Sleep apnea makes it nearly impossible to lose weight. It can cause obesity.
- Glyptodon 3y agoI'm confused - if I had one of these and they replaced it, is it safe or not?
- HumblyTossed 3y ago> ... stop selling the machines in the U.S. WTF? So they're knowingly going to keep selling them elsewhere!?
- Tokkemon 3y agoI'm an obese man and had severe sleep apnea. Last year I got a sleep study and started using a BiPAP machine from ResMed. The different was night and day (sorry). Huge improvements to my energy levels and ability to just function during the day. One thing that was really interesting in this process was understanding the machine itself. Being used to crappy consumer electronics, I was amazed at how robust the build quality was and the engineering involved. Every little eventuality of medical accessibility problems, or things that could go wrong were accounted for in the design somewhere. It's incredibly simple to use, easy to clean, easy to get spare parts if needed. I guess that's the quality you get when your device costs upwards of $2,000.
- matheusmoreira 3y agoI just bought a ResMed CPAP myself. It does appear to be well constructed and the software seems to be much better too. Seems to be packed with internet connectivity "features" though so I'm gonna have to find a way to disable them. I'm also gonna try to reverse engineer the app in order to replace it with free software.
- rak 3y agoI just got back to trying to use my resmed and I am curious. How did you get used to wearing it? I am really trying but I am not having much luck.
- smivan 3y agoTry out various masks. I bought one of each mask available and tried them all, ended up with the N20. CPAP.com is great for decent prices and direct to consumer sales. If the internal pressure is annoying, airtight earplugs help with keeping the sinus pressure even.
- rootusrootus 3y agoSo how do we feel about this? 561 people dead? That's a lot! Way more than Boeing killed with the 737MAX. But OTOH, it's a Dutch company, so maybe we give them the benefit of the doubt?
- inputError 3y ago[dead]