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As a knowledge worker who immigrated to the Netherlands in 2022 and also lives in Eindhoven, these insights and discussions are super interesting to me. Unlike

As a knowledge worker who immigrated to the Netherlands in 2022 and also lives in Eindhoven, these insights and discussions are super interesting to me. Unlike most of my nearby expat peers, I didn't move here to work at ASML or Philips, but now that I'm here, it's undeniable; the appeal of working for such companies is huge. Obviously, companies want to make money, but the goals of the government have somewhat been at odds with funding growth and innovation in this sector because of some resentment on the ground from citizens. Tax legislation is all over the place and it's becoming more and more expensive to hire experts from around the world. I understand the sentiment to start hiring at home, but at a certain point, you have to take stock of what is available and get to work with what tools you have. Invest in education for your local population (lots of cuts in the past two decades) but don't punish individuals and companies trying to get work done and benefit your economy. The infrastructure is basically all in place for Europe to foster its own Silicon Valley, with homegrown production to boot!, but it will come down to politics to make it a reality. These goals are good baby steps, but they need to ramp up quick if the EU is serious about becoming a global competitor.

jacquesm 3y ago
Go for it. They're cutting edge and a good employer too.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  Isn't the pay smaller compared to other big companies in NL?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly, but if you mean the pay compared to US tech companies active in NL then I would say it depends very much on your specialization. Engineer: 40k and up, team lead: 70k and up, project manager: 90k and up. I don't have much data on other roles but the 'and up' is the big factor, depends on seniority and specific skills. What really strikes me is that an extremely high fraction of the people that work there speak highly of their employer. I'm sure Google or FB would pay more, especially if you're prepared to move the USA. Other 'big companies in NL' can pay crap or good depending very much on the company, the field they are active in and the kind of job you are looking for so that's a bit too generic to do something with. HTH.
    - ThalesX 3y ago
      > Engineer: 40k and up [...] I'm sure Google or FB would pay more There's body shops in Eastern Europe that pay more for junior frontend developers...
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        The 'and up' bit is relevant. I know some people there that do large multiples of that figure.
      - yourusername 3y ago
        Minimum wage in the Netherlands is about 26k a year so i sure hope it skews to "and up", you can make 40k at a helpdesk resetting people's passwords.
      - amelius 3y ago
        Primary school teachers make 40k to 72k in the Netherlands. It doesn't make sense to be a software engineer in that country, unless you prefer looking at a screen all day over working with people.
        wkat4242 3y ago
        Whoa I'm a senior enterprise it architect in Spain and I only make 60k lol. The Netherlands standard of living has really accelerated since I left there
    - poisonborz 3y ago
      That's truly sad if true and up to date. Your top of 70k for a staff engineer is a common senior salary at any software company in DACH area (working on totally boring tech like Salesforce or SAP). If that's for an industry as as unique as chip production, something is very off.
      - vidarh 3y ago
        Where did you read top of 70k? He stated 70k and up for a team lead, not a staff engineer. 70k is the bottom for that role. Given the starting point is that for 'just' a team lead, presumably a staff engineer would start much higher, if they have that role. I agree it's low given even a team lead role, but it depends on how many are on the low end of their pay scale.
  - dekleinewolf 3y ago
    ASML is well known for it's exceptionally high pay compared to other Dutch tech companies.
    - Moldoteck 3y ago
      well, looking at the other comment in this thread, looks like the pay is kinda smaller compared to say Spoti/Booking/similars and not comparable with big tech
- throwaway78955 3y ago
  Throwaway because this is a touchy subject, but if you've worked/contracted/supplied for ASML the consensus is pretty much: cutting edge on the hardware end of things, hopelessly behind in the software department. So great if you're a physics PhD, but if you're going in there as a software engineer thinking you'll be working with the latest and greatest, you'll be in for a shock. Not to mention that it's a huge ship that's very difficult to turn around in terms of introducing new technologies or paradigms. It's classic BigCorp politics all the way through.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    > hopelessly behind in the software department Yes, good point, but: because they're behind there is a ton of work to be done. This is where a good chunk of that employment comes from to begin with. Meanwhile their process is cutting edge, they pretty much define the market and that gives working for them opportunities hard to match with other employers in NL.
logifail 3y ago
> don't punish individuals and companies trying to get work done and benefit your economy Getting work done is one thing, why should locals support tax breaks for expats? "Technology companies including ASML Holding NV and Adyen NV called on the Dutch government to maintain a tax break that seeks to attract expatriates to the Netherlands. Ingrid Thijssen, head of the Confederation of Netherlands Industry and Employers, said the government for budget reasons is considering shrinking or scrapping a rule that exempts 30% of an expat’s salary from income tax for five years."[0] [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-06/dutch-tech-firms-warn-they-ll-lose-out-if-expat-tax-break-goes https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-06/dutch-tec...
- jacquesm 3y ago
  As a local I support this. Simply because having more smart people eventually benefits Dutch society and the long term is far more important than the short term. Usually this argument is based in some for of jealousy, but consider: an expat gives up their current life to chance it all on another, has stupendously high private costs if they want to keep up with their family and has to start all over again from scratch which also carries a lot of costs. Giving them a five year tax break seems like a smart thing to do to me.
  - NalNezumi 3y ago
    Another supportive argument (especially for Europe, maybe not US) is that those knowledge workers have spent a considerable time, money, and effort to acquire that talent/skill-set, and unlike your own citizen your country spent *zero* euro paying for that. Most European countries have heavy tax but very protective social services, including free education and universal healthcare, which only works because there's an expectation that when you come of age, you'll support the same system . So every citizen before turning adult (or paying taxes) are a net-debtor for society as a whole. Knowledge worker expats start at zero debt for you. Worst thing for countries like this is if its citizen get educated there and the best talent just moves to greener pasture (SV etc). If one can let go of their jealousy and see things practically, some tax incentive makes sense, but should be done smartly (not to cover rich people buying their way in while contributing zero long-term)
mschuster91 3y ago
> The infrastructure is basically all in place for Europe to foster its own Silicon Valley, with homegrown production to boot!, but it will come down to politics to make it a reality. This x1000. Germany, for example, created the worldwide market for solar in the first place with the EEG subsidies, and German companies were technology and market leaders for a long time.
chucke1992 3y ago
Nah, I don't see Europe producing their own silicon valley - EU has over-regulated and a fragmented market. Too many regulations lead to less enterprises, while fragmentation (Germany, France, etc. with their own regulations + language barriers) prevents companies from growing big in their home soil. Anecdotally, I feel like Sweden produces more startups that grow large worldwide. I presume, they have less regulations in place + English is more widespread I guess.
- pitkali 3y ago
  > Anecdotally, I feel like Sweden produces more startups that grow large worldwide. Yet, they are also part of the EU.
- sofixa 3y ago
  > I presume, they have less regulations in place Why would you presume that? Working back from wrong assumptions and biases is never a good idea.
  - tormeh 3y ago
    It's still true. Or, the regulations are at least efficiently enforced in Sweden, unlike in most countries in the EU. Inefficient, corrupt, or arbitrary bureaucracies are surprisingly common.
    - sofixa 3y ago
      Do you have any sources or proof of that or are you working back from biases?
      - tormeh 3y ago
        There are no "backwards bureaucracy" index, unfortunately, but that's what I hear. Sweden has a smooth system. To be fair, that seems to be common in Scandinavia. Germany is a mess for sure. Have heard nothing good about Spain/Italy. France seems to have a problem with powerful individual bureaucrats. Anyway, if you want something slightly more systematic, look at the Ease of Doing Business rankings, but keep in mind that it's constructed based on how the bureaucracies are supposed to work (legislation, etc.), not the actual experience of those using them.
mantas 3y ago
> some resentment on the ground from citizens In many cases resentment is for low-skilled (or no skills at all) migration. Yet many european governments punish highly-skilled migrants yet don't listen to their citizens regarding actual issues on migration. Loose-loose situation for citizens, companies and governments.

jacquesm 3y ago

Go for it. They're cutting edge and a good employer too.

Moldoteck 3y ago
Isn't the pay smaller compared to other big companies in NL?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly, but if you mean the pay compared to US tech companies active in NL then I would say it depends very much on your specialization. Engineer: 40k and up, team lead: 70k and up, project manager: 90k and up. I don't have much data on other roles but the 'and up' is the big factor, depends on seniority and specific skills. What really strikes me is that an extremely high fraction of the people that work there speak highly of their employer. I'm sure Google or FB would pay more, especially if you're prepared to move the USA. Other 'big companies in NL' can pay crap or good depending very much on the company, the field they are active in and the kind of job you are looking for so that's a bit too generic to do something with. HTH.
  - ThalesX 3y ago
    > Engineer: 40k and up [...] I'm sure Google or FB would pay more There's body shops in Eastern Europe that pay more for junior frontend developers...
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      The 'and up' bit is relevant. I know some people there that do large multiples of that figure.
    - yourusername 3y ago
      Minimum wage in the Netherlands is about 26k a year so i sure hope it skews to "and up", you can make 40k at a helpdesk resetting people's passwords.
    - amelius 3y ago
      Primary school teachers make 40k to 72k in the Netherlands. It doesn't make sense to be a software engineer in that country, unless you prefer looking at a screen all day over working with people.
      - wkat4242 3y ago
        Whoa I'm a senior enterprise it architect in Spain and I only make 60k lol. The Netherlands standard of living has really accelerated since I left there
  - poisonborz 3y ago
    That's truly sad if true and up to date. Your top of 70k for a staff engineer is a common senior salary at any software company in DACH area (working on totally boring tech like Salesforce or SAP). If that's for an industry as as unique as chip production, something is very off.
    - vidarh 3y ago
      Where did you read top of 70k? He stated 70k and up for a team lead, not a staff engineer. 70k is the bottom for that role. Given the starting point is that for 'just' a team lead, presumably a staff engineer would start much higher, if they have that role. I agree it's low given even a team lead role, but it depends on how many are on the low end of their pay scale.
- dekleinewolf 3y ago
  ASML is well known for it's exceptionally high pay compared to other Dutch tech companies.
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    well, looking at the other comment in this thread, looks like the pay is kinda smaller compared to say Spoti/Booking/similars and not comparable with big tech
throwaway78955 3y ago
Throwaway because this is a touchy subject, but if you've worked/contracted/supplied for ASML the consensus is pretty much: cutting edge on the hardware end of things, hopelessly behind in the software department. So great if you're a physics PhD, but if you're going in there as a software engineer thinking you'll be working with the latest and greatest, you'll be in for a shock. Not to mention that it's a huge ship that's very difficult to turn around in terms of introducing new technologies or paradigms. It's classic BigCorp politics all the way through.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  > hopelessly behind in the software department Yes, good point, but: because they're behind there is a ton of work to be done. This is where a good chunk of that employment comes from to begin with. Meanwhile their process is cutting edge, they pretty much define the market and that gives working for them opportunities hard to match with other employers in NL.

logifail 3y ago

> don't punish individuals and companies trying to get work done and benefit your economy Getting work done is one thing, why should locals support tax breaks for expats? "Technology companies including ASML Holding NV and Adyen NV called on the Dutch government to maintain a tax break that seeks to attract expatriates to the Netherlands. Ingrid Thijssen, head of the Confederation of Netherlands Industry and Employers, said the government for budget reasons is considering shrinking or scrapping a rule that exempts 30% of an expat’s salary from income tax for five years."[0] [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-06/dutch-tech-firms-warn-they-ll-lose-out-if-expat-tax-break-goes https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-06/dutch-tec...

jacquesm 3y ago
As a local I support this. Simply because having more smart people eventually benefits Dutch society and the long term is far more important than the short term. Usually this argument is based in some for of jealousy, but consider: an expat gives up their current life to chance it all on another, has stupendously high private costs if they want to keep up with their family and has to start all over again from scratch which also carries a lot of costs. Giving them a five year tax break seems like a smart thing to do to me.
- NalNezumi 3y ago
  Another supportive argument (especially for Europe, maybe not US) is that those knowledge workers have spent a considerable time, money, and effort to acquire that talent/skill-set, and unlike your own citizen your country spent *zero* euro paying for that. Most European countries have heavy tax but very protective social services, including free education and universal healthcare, which only works because there's an expectation that when you come of age, you'll support the same system . So every citizen before turning adult (or paying taxes) are a net-debtor for society as a whole. Knowledge worker expats start at zero debt for you. Worst thing for countries like this is if its citizen get educated there and the best talent just moves to greener pasture (SV etc). If one can let go of their jealousy and see things practically, some tax incentive makes sense, but should be done smartly (not to cover rich people buying their way in while contributing zero long-term)

mschuster91 3y ago

> The infrastructure is basically all in place for Europe to foster its own Silicon Valley, with homegrown production to boot!, but it will come down to politics to make it a reality. This x1000. Germany, for example, created the worldwide market for solar in the first place with the EEG subsidies, and German companies were technology and market leaders for a long time.

chucke1992 3y ago

Nah, I don't see Europe producing their own silicon valley - EU has over-regulated and a fragmented market. Too many regulations lead to less enterprises, while fragmentation (Germany, France, etc. with their own regulations + language barriers) prevents companies from growing big in their home soil. Anecdotally, I feel like Sweden produces more startups that grow large worldwide. I presume, they have less regulations in place + English is more widespread I guess.

pitkali 3y ago
> Anecdotally, I feel like Sweden produces more startups that grow large worldwide. Yet, they are also part of the EU.
sofixa 3y ago
> I presume, they have less regulations in place Why would you presume that? Working back from wrong assumptions and biases is never a good idea.
- tormeh 3y ago
  It's still true. Or, the regulations are at least efficiently enforced in Sweden, unlike in most countries in the EU. Inefficient, corrupt, or arbitrary bureaucracies are surprisingly common.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    Do you have any sources or proof of that or are you working back from biases?
    - tormeh 3y ago
      There are no "backwards bureaucracy" index, unfortunately, but that's what I hear. Sweden has a smooth system. To be fair, that seems to be common in Scandinavia. Germany is a mess for sure. Have heard nothing good about Spain/Italy. France seems to have a problem with powerful individual bureaucrats. Anyway, if you want something slightly more systematic, look at the Ease of Doing Business rankings, but keep in mind that it's constructed based on how the bureaucracies are supposed to work (legislation, etc.), not the actual experience of those using them.

mantas 3y ago

> some resentment on the ground from citizens In many cases resentment is for low-skilled (or no skills at all) migration. Yet many european governments punish highly-skilled migrants yet don't listen to their citizens regarding actual issues on migration. Loose-loose situation for citizens, companies and governments.