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> I don't think this is the case Isn't that's how Ukraine got fucked. Sent their submarine drones towards Crimea but as soon they crossed the "border" they los

> I don't think this is the case Isn't that's how Ukraine got fucked. Sent their submarine drones towards Crimea but as soon they crossed the "border" they lost signal. They tried to contact Musk and the rest is history...

zo1 3y ago
I'm pretty sure the reason there was the free internet access being give to Ukraine was conditional on it being used for defence only and not offence. Seems pretty reasonable to me.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  the defence/offence line is pretty blurred... What with 99+% of the kills by the US Department of Defence being on other peoples soil...
  - cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
    That really says more about America than it does the blurred lines between offence and defence :)
  - lupusreal 3y ago
    It used to be called the Department of War. The "Department of Defense" name came about in 1949 for PR reasons. Also, "PR" is an American propaganda term which means "propaganda".
    - mlazos 3y ago
      Isn’t it public relations?
      - lupusreal 3y ago
        PR expands to public relations, which is a euphemism for propaganda. Propaganda was rebranded in America after WW2 because people associated the term with Nazis. https://theconversation.com/the-manipulation-of-the-american-mind-edward-bernays-and-the-birth-of-public-relations-44393 https://theconversation.com/the-manipulation-of-the-american...
- Analemma_ 3y ago
  What is the difference between defense and offense when you are fighting against an invading army occupying ~20% of your country? Is it "offense" if you attempt to push them out?
  - zo1 3y ago
    It's offence when you leave your border on go over into another country. But either way, doesn't matter what I think, it's what Elon Musk thinks as he was giving them the starlink access for free.
    - iamdelirium 3y ago
      The international consensus is that Crimea is Ukrainian territory. Also, Musk wasn't giving it to them for free. The US was paying for it.
      - dzhiurgis 3y ago
        Consensus doesn’t change the fact the enemy has occupied that territory. Isn’t so hard to grok why you Musk wouldn’t open internet on there, esp without explicit DOD authorization.
        victorbjorklund 3y ago
        The enemy is ALWAYS occupying any territory that they are on. It isnt like they are on vaccation. So with that logic it couldnt be used for any defence purposes that kills the invaders.
        inemesitaffia 3y ago
        It's no different from the limits on use of HIMARS in UKr
        victorbjorklund 3y ago
- ranger207 3y ago
  Offensive operations are integral to achieving military strategy, including defenses. Passively defending has always been used to create conditions favorable to resuming offensive operations because only offensive operations get things done. Militarily, "defensive operations" include attacking the enemy
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
10u152 3y ago
They were using humanitarian/civilian internet given freely for deadly cross border offensives. If you want military grade comms, you can buy them.
- ferbivore 3y ago
  Not cross-border from Ukraine's perspective. Or the US government's.
  - trompetenaccoun 3y ago
    Yes, morally Ukraine is in the right, although it's understandable why Musk wants his globally operating businesses to at least appear to be neutral. Despite being obviously US-based. Maybe more interesting is the question why they need Starlink at all? Why are they dealing with a private for profit company when the US military could provide them with satellite communications?
    - ferbivore 3y ago
      They were using Starlink to get live video from small maritime drones. As in, things that you can only fit a tiny non-directional antenna onto. I can't imagine trying to talk to WGS with one of those would go well.
    - yencabulator 3y ago
      Meanwhile, US military contracts Starlink for some of its communications. Private contractors are very much the standard for military logistics these days.
    - mensetmanusman 3y ago
      starlink is the only game in town for high bandwidth low latency.
  - dzhiurgis 3y ago
    So Musk should grant internet to enemy occupied zone giving them super unfair advantage because of feelsies and vibes?

zo1 3y ago

I'm pretty sure the reason there was the free internet access being give to Ukraine was conditional on it being used for defence only and not offence. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

londons_explore 3y ago
the defence/offence line is pretty blurred... What with 99+% of the kills by the US Department of Defence being on other peoples soil...
- cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
  That really says more about America than it does the blurred lines between offence and defence :)
- lupusreal 3y ago
  It used to be called the Department of War. The "Department of Defense" name came about in 1949 for PR reasons. Also, "PR" is an American propaganda term which means "propaganda".
  - mlazos 3y ago
    Isn’t it public relations?
    - lupusreal 3y ago
      PR expands to public relations, which is a euphemism for propaganda. Propaganda was rebranded in America after WW2 because people associated the term with Nazis. https://theconversation.com/the-manipulation-of-the-american-mind-edward-bernays-and-the-birth-of-public-relations-44393 https://theconversation.com/the-manipulation-of-the-american...
Analemma_ 3y ago
What is the difference between defense and offense when you are fighting against an invading army occupying ~20% of your country? Is it "offense" if you attempt to push them out?
- zo1 3y ago
  It's offence when you leave your border on go over into another country. But either way, doesn't matter what I think, it's what Elon Musk thinks as he was giving them the starlink access for free.
  - iamdelirium 3y ago
    The international consensus is that Crimea is Ukrainian territory. Also, Musk wasn't giving it to them for free. The US was paying for it.
    - dzhiurgis 3y ago
      Consensus doesn’t change the fact the enemy has occupied that territory. Isn’t so hard to grok why you Musk wouldn’t open internet on there, esp without explicit DOD authorization.
      - victorbjorklund 3y ago
        The enemy is ALWAYS occupying any territory that they are on. It isnt like they are on vaccation. So with that logic it couldnt be used for any defence purposes that kills the invaders.
        inemesitaffia 3y ago
        It's no different from the limits on use of HIMARS in UKr
        victorbjorklund 3y ago
ranger207 3y ago
Offensive operations are integral to achieving military strategy, including defenses. Passively defending has always been used to create conditions favorable to resuming offensive operations because only offensive operations get things done. Militarily, "defensive operations" include attacking the enemy
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

10u152 3y ago

They were using humanitarian/civilian internet given freely for deadly cross border offensives. If you want military grade comms, you can buy them.

ferbivore 3y ago
Not cross-border from Ukraine's perspective. Or the US government's.
- trompetenaccoun 3y ago
  Yes, morally Ukraine is in the right, although it's understandable why Musk wants his globally operating businesses to at least appear to be neutral. Despite being obviously US-based. Maybe more interesting is the question why they need Starlink at all? Why are they dealing with a private for profit company when the US military could provide them with satellite communications?
  - ferbivore 3y ago
    They were using Starlink to get live video from small maritime drones. As in, things that you can only fit a tiny non-directional antenna onto. I can't imagine trying to talk to WGS with one of those would go well.
  - yencabulator 3y ago
    Meanwhile, US military contracts Starlink for some of its communications. Private contractors are very much the standard for military logistics these days.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    starlink is the only game in town for high bandwidth low latency.
- dzhiurgis 3y ago
  So Musk should grant internet to enemy occupied zone giving them super unfair advantage because of feelsies and vibes?