11 ms·

Microsoft Edge ignores user wishes, slurps tabs from Chrome without permission

337 points by fauigerzigerk 3y ago

_cenw 3y ago
This is unfortunately not new, I reported the same behavior here on HN 2 months ago, and how I uninstalled Edge via the new EU DMA update to keep it from sending my browser history (of any browser) to Microsoft, potentially, probably. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38430102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38430102
radiKal07 3y ago
No idea why you guys put up with this bullshit. I use Safari on macOS, it works great. I use Firefox on my Windows PC, it works great.
- eimrine 3y ago
  Your jails are working as intended.
  - dotcoma 3y ago
    No one is free. Even the birds are chained to the sky. — Bob Dylan
    - eimrine 3y ago
      Birds have no risk to fall down into a tyranny, they have no reason to figth for democracy, they don't even see any targeted ads.
      - dotcoma 3y ago
        > they don't even see any targeted ads. Neither do I. All it takes is Ublock Origin.
      - lozf 3y ago
        They likely would if only they had money to spend. Someone would at least try.
    - AniseAbyss 3y ago
      The best I can do is pirate software and use ad blocking tools. Still a slave but not a paying one.
  - thimp 3y ago
    Better a Norwegian prison than a Soviet gulag.
- ActionHank 3y ago
  Given MS being horribly anti-user these days, monetizing each user to be farmed like cattle and Apple's massive anti-consumer malicious compliance to any legal rulings, more people should be considering Linux. It's fast. It respects the user. Games work beautifully with proton. Most software has an equivalent on Linux if they don't offer their own binaries. More and more I don't understand the desire or need to generate revenue for companies that treat you like dumb cattle.
  - dotcoma 3y ago
    Not a SWE here. Used Ubuntu from 2006 to 2011. It used to take some effort, compared to OSX. But if we’re talking Linux vs Windows, I completely agree.
    - jojobas 3y ago
      Ubuntu went a looong way since then. Even debian is not longer scary-scary.
    - ActionHank 3y ago
      I hear you, but they've all moved along in leaps and bounds. Some options if you ever look again - * ElementaryOS(https://elementary.io/ https://elementary.io/) * PopOS(https://pop.system76.com/ https://pop.system76.com/) * Linux Mint(https://linuxmint.com/ https://linuxmint.com/) * As always, Ubuntu(https://ubuntu.com/ https://ubuntu.com/) All solid, functional, and not treating you like cattle.
      - dotcoma 3y ago
        Thanks. Pretty happy with OSX, and also happy to be spending less time in front of a computer :)
      - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
        Last week my wife got prompted by Ubuntu's automatic software update to install a security update that required signing up to some paid Ubuntu subscription. I'm not sure this is really what it meant (I didn't see the prompt myself), but it was what Ubuntu made her believe. After updating without this "option", all her VirtualBox VMs stopped working (I don't mean to imply that these two issues are linked).
- dspillett 3y ago
  On this particular issue Firefox-on-windows is unlikely to be a solution. If they can and are doing it to Chrome on Windows they can to Firefox too. It might be more work as Edge doesn't share a codebase with Firefox like it does with Chrome, but unless FF is somehow encrypting everything in a way that blocks MS⁰ it won't be particularly difficult. -- [0] Likely impossible. Even making it difficult enough to slow MS if they had the intention is likely completely impractical.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  Because I use computers to do things, and Windows is the right tool for the job in the vast majority of cases. No, please don't suggest Linux or FOSS alternatives. They are all dead on arrival. I need Office, not LibreOffice. I need Photoshop, not GIMP. I need Illustrator, not Inkscape. I want Windows, not Proton. I need a computer, not a tinkerer's toy.
  - eimrine 3y ago
    That sounds like an anti-openness manifesto. Pleace hide the source code from me and squeeze as much profits as possible!
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      I don't care if the code is closed or open, because I use computers to do things. Computers are tools to let me achieve things, thusly I care about the results and not about the process (eg: closed vs. open). I don't care to computer either, because that's not what I consider computers to be at my point in life. I use tools, not tool tools.
      - eimrine 3y ago
        > I use tools, not tool tools. You remind me typical pro-Russian men who claim they are non-interesting in politics with no realizing their choice "not to be interested in politics" is a pro-war choice.
      - the_third_wave 3y ago
        > Computers are tools to let me achieve things Computers are tools to run software. Software is what makes (or breaks) the computer a useful tool. A computer without software is just as useful as a lump of pig iron: handy as a paper weight but no more. Closed software which locks your data in its grasp may be OK for some purposes but in the long run it nearly always ends up causing problems - try opening an older Word file in current Word [1] for an example of such. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38906331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38906331
- thimp 3y ago
  It's not just the browser, it's the OS as well, at least on Windows 11. Literally everything is optimised to force you to try and use Bing and Edge. If I hit start, I get bing, if I run updates it tries to sell me Bing and Edge. If I use edge it throws me at the microsoft portal all the time and I have to futz around with it to disable CoPilot integration and add extensions to give me a blank new tab page etc. Then I get an update. Oh and next thing I know it's trying to sell me vouchers. And then the other day it ripped off all my Chrome credentials which I keep separate. I don't even know how it did it. The final straw was on my pixel 7a when I opened the outlook app and found there's a fucking garbage feeds and subscriptions tab in it now which just pipes crap to you. I got fed up with it at the start of December last year and rinsed my credit card in the Apple Store. I walked out with an MBP and an iPhone and neither have not yet kicked me in the nuts once. I'm slowly porting my data over at the moment and then I'm chucking this crap on ebay and never touching it again. Well done Microsoft. You burned a 30 year long developer relationship.
- neilv 3y ago
  > No idea why you guys put up with this bullshit. I use [...] macOS, That's the authoritarian alternative, to the perpetually backstabbing option. Debian Stable is the actually wholesome marriage material. https://www.debian.org/distrib/ https://www.debian.org/distrib/
  - devnullbrain 3y ago
    >Debian OK, sure >Stable Masochism
    - marcosdumay 3y ago
      Well, then install the testing version and complain on HN that Linux is broken and won't stay working for long. (Even though the MTBF of Debian testing is at least 5 times larger than Windows.)
      - devnullbrain 3y ago
        It's the other way around. Trying to search for problems with Stable is more difficult because potential fixes require things your OS doesn't have yet.
        neilv 3y ago
        I haven't much had this problem with Debian Stable. For awhile, there would be a thing with people using, say, JS libraries, and they'd want to Stack Overflow copy&paste something. But the more reckless of those people just ended up bypassing Debian with NPM or some other language-specific package manager. And less-reckless people can decide when they can just use Debian or have to pull select bits of software some other way.
greenyoda 3y ago
Discussion from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39179929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39179929
charcircuit 3y ago
This is Window's security model in action. Nothing stops Microsoft from developing a feature to compile browser history, bookmarks, previously opened tabs, etc all into one place for the user's convenience. On mobile platforms app's don't have permission to do such a thing.
- eimrine 3y ago
  > On mobile platforms app's don't have permission to do such a thing. Very doubtful. If you turn on GPS for one app, all ads in all apps at all begin to be better targeted immediately. Especially noticeable if there were a big travel since the previous GPS usage.
  - datadrivenangel 3y ago
    That's because most of the ads come through a few ad networks, so if they get location from one app, they have the profile on you.
- bonton89 3y ago
  Even if Microsoft had a proper sandbox system they would have exempted themselves from it "for security scanning and product improvement". It isn't the apps that are the problem, it is Microsoft.
dspillett 3y ago
> and stored passwords […] it'll also sync that data to the cloud too Yet another reason to keep my auth details in a separate store and not let any browser get its grubby mits on them beyond when they are actually needed.
isoprophlex 3y ago
Imagine being CISO or any other high level manager doing information security, and your entire corporation runs Microsoft workstations. Every week there's a new headache to keep you awake at night; did you pay those leeches enough for an enterprise license that doesn't silently exfiltrate all your employees' data? Will they roll out the latest greatest data vacuuming feature to your install base? Fun times!
- _cenw 3y ago
  This behavior is in fact limited to "consumer" Windows 11 SKUs (so Home and Pro), and also disables when using Pro domain-joined. But bet on it migrating to the business SKUs eventually.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Bingo. Microsoft is careful to only screw consumers who don't know any better (they already surrendered their personal data and ownership of their digital purchases and devices to Google, Meta, Amazon, Apple, Sony, Samsung, etc. what's one more?) and to not fuck over their most loyal cash cow (businesses).
    - HPsquared 3y ago
      The home versions being "untrustworthy" also could help push sales of the business version. Especially with things being done more in the browser, the "business features" of the OS are less of a draw. So they need to instead put anti-features in the home version to deter business users from "cheaping out".
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >The home versions being "untrustworthy" also could help push sales of the business version. How so? Consumers don't have easy access to the Business version AFAIK, and businesses will always buy the Business version anyway.
dekken_ 3y ago
at what point does this become theft?
- 0xEF 3y ago
  At the point where laws are enacted the protect the user and their respective data, as well as punishment for breaking said laws is more than just a monetary fine. We can have the protective laws all day, but fines are basically just a license to break them, especially when we are talking about something as lucrative as user data. When the regulatory bodies start to have more power than the corporations they regulate, we will see change. So, you know, probably never.
- rkagerer 3y ago
  The problem with civil litigation against some of these dark patterns is it can be challenging to show quantifiable harm to a magnitude that makes it worth pursuing. Fortunately judges are becoming more keyed-in to the intrinsic value of privacy.
  - ipython 3y ago
    Ironic given one of yesterdays front page stories on hn was how to respond to a c&d letter from a large tech company where they claim violation of ToS for some tool you built to automate processes on a “free” website.
- realusername 3y ago
  That is probably legally dubious in the EU at least
exceptione 3y ago
- You can only run Windows safely on a machine disconnected from the internet and your internal network. - If you have nothing of value, like if all you have is just some games, you could run Windows on bare metal, but make sure to shield your internal network from it. - Running anti-virus on what is essentially a really nasty virus makes no sense, as are the various tweak tools that give you a false sense of security.
- shp0ngle 3y ago
  You need to use LTSC, the only good version of Windows. It doesn't have Edge. Unfortunately they don't really sell you license legally as an individual. There are shady resellers online.
  - dartharva 3y ago
    There are several ISO dumps available on the internet that you can download untouched LTSC images from. You can check the hashes from the official Microsoft support site if you need to be sure.
  - jacooper 3y ago
    Afaik it lacks a few things important for gaming on new machines.
    - rkagerer 3y ago
      Like what?
      - gray_-_wolf 3y ago
        I had driver issues, the nvidia drivers refused to install on LTSC due to "system too old" error. True, at the time it was very new laptop, and it would probably work fine if I tried it now.
      - mananaysiempre 3y ago
        Better support for scheduling on Intel’s heterogeneous cores (≥12th gen CPUs) and AMD’s aggressive dynamic frequency scaling (Ryzen 7040) isn’t coming to Windows 10 ever, from what I understand.
lousken 3y ago
Isn't this gdpr violation?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- nottorp 3y ago
  Probably not. They don't need to send your data to Microsoft's servers to import the tabs in Edge. Now if Edge also auto activates some sync service that sends your tabs to MS...
hooby 3y ago
Two questions: 1) Do I have to actively use Edge - or does this happen automatically in the background - even if I never open an Edge window? 2) Does any of the data gathered that way find it's way into Windows telemetry (anonymized or not)? Since I'm neither "allowed" to uninstall Edge, nor "allowed" to fully disable telemetry... Someone in here writes that there is a possibility that Edge sends its browser history (imported or not) to Microsoft servers...
- computerfriend 3y ago
  You are allowed to uninstall MS Windows though.
  - hooby 3y ago
    It seems like that's truly becoming the only option for people who want to some semblance of control over what happens on their computers.
- whyoh 3y ago
  In the EEA (EU), you'll be able to uninstall Edge easily, with an update in the coming weeks: https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2023/11/16/previewing-changes-in-windows-to-comply-with-the-digital-markets-act-in-the-european-economic-area/ https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2023/11/16/preview... (And I'm guessing it won't be hard to do that outside the EEA either.)
- e40 3y ago
  Would really love to see an answer to (1).
rowanG077 3y ago
It's very clear why windows usage is dwindling year after year. Windows 7 was the last good windows version. 8 was trash and 10 introduced ads and other extreme anti-features. The search in windows has never been worse. I'm thinking MS just doesn't care about it anymore given they have azure.
- Retr0id 3y ago
  I wonder what percentage of users these days deliberately make use of local files, as opposed to The Cloud. Maybe local search is considered a niche feature now (I have no idea if this is true or not, and I really hope that it isn't).
  - beAbU 3y ago
    If you sign in to a onedrive/MS account on windows it'll set all the default file explorer directories to your mounted cloud drive. Newer versions of Office defaults to the cloud directory when you are trying to save a file. It's an absolute hassle to do something as simple as save a file to my hard drive. I had to set up my wife's laptop with a MS account a while back, since she got an office license she wanted to use. She's a big Sims 3 and 4 player. Sims stores it's save files by default in the "my documents" directory. Sims game save files are huge. The moment I signed in to a MS account on the laptop, the damn thing converted the whole user folder to a cloud folder, and subsequently started uploading dozens of gigabytes of Sims save files, without my consent or asking me beforehand.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - marcosdumay 3y ago
      Not excusing the overall behavior, but just FYI there's a checkbox somewhere on the onedrive first login process that changes this. At least on the Win10 version of it.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  > I'm thinking MS just doesn't care about it anymore given they have azure. Not just azure but Microsoft 365 They're no longer a software company, they're a services company. Windows is no longer a huge part of their revenue.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
fifteen1506 3y ago
Don't worry, let market fix it.
- zeroCalories 3y ago
  The market is fine with this behavior. Don't confuse your desires for the market's desires and cry about it.
  - drooopy 3y ago
    The market is fine? Do you have any sources to back that up? I'd argue that my family with its rampant technological illiteracy are part of "the market" and they would all throw a hissy fit if their environment and work flow suddenly changed after a reboot.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    The dam is fine with these cracks and leaks. ... Until it's not.
  - fifteen1506 3y ago
    I agree. The market's fine.
- drooopy 3y ago
  You're right. This is totally not predatory behaviour and there's absolutely no need for any sort of regulation.
  - spacechild1 3y ago
    I think (or rather hope) parent was just being sarcastic.
    - drooopy 3y ago
      I hope so too.
thombles 3y ago
We're not even near the end of this process. Every thing that occurs on (ostensibly) your PC must be uploaded and processed by Bing AI so you can be "productive" while utterly dependent on the cloud and viewing as many MSN ads as possible. I had high hopes for Edge once but it's become clear that it's just a value-extraction funnel.
zer00eyz 3y ago
M$ is still M$ Linkedin, Github, Copilot(just no, but people swear by it), VS code... How long before M$ takes github down the same road as sourceforge (for those who dont know: https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/rise-fall-slashdot-media/ https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/rise-fall-slashdot-media/ )
- CalRobert 3y ago
  Already seeing a push to redefine "git" as github, sadly.
  - rhdunn 3y ago
    We need some Gitea sent to the GitLab! :) Make people aware that there are more options for self-hosted git.
  - weikju 3y ago
    copilot, github, codespaces, vscode, vscode-server: a push to move all development to MS's cloud and out of the hands/power of the little people.
- TheRealDunkirk 3y ago
  All they need to do is buy StackOverflow from the PE that owns it now, and the circle will be completely jerked.
- lioeters 3y ago
  VSCode and GitHub are honestly great at what they do, granted there are valid criticisms. These are essential daily tools for a sizable population of users, including myself. I think Microsoft has earned a lot of good will by cultivating these, as well as TypeScript and other open-source developer-oriented projects. Maybe not enough good will though, to recover their reputation from historic and on-going user-hostile moves. I'm really praying that Microsoft doesn't ruin these projects like they've been doing with Windows and Edge.
  - 65 3y ago
mbwgh 3y ago
Even Firefox will in general not protect you I believe. I showed my mom how she can use 'web.whatsapp.com' to use Whatsapp more easily (in order to share screenshots or links with others). After logging in, a notification about Whatsapp having been installed from the app store popped up after a few seconds. And indeed, the Desktop app had been installed, without any user interaction whatsoever. I am not even sure how this was initiated, but I believe DoH being disabled by default probably has to do with it. Edit: Like a lot of comments have suggested, I most likely remember this wrong. I tried to reproduce this (after "forgetting about" whatsapp.com in Firefox and uninstalling the app) and was unable to. I did encounter three separate "install the app" buttons, all of which however yielded an additional installation prompt from the app store. Apologies. FWIW, according to https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web_apps/Guides/Installing https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web... Firefox does not support PWAs without an extension, so that wasn't it either.
- archerx 3y ago
  Sounds like a progressive web app, they probably trick you into triggering the pwa install command.
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    I don't think it's a PWA if she was using Firefox, because Firefox removed the little PWA functionality their desktop browser offered a while ago (this is one of the reasons I still have Chromium installed). I imagine during the process, WhatsApp opened an ms-store: link that launched the Microsoft Store, and not knowing better, they clicked "install" when prompted. The desktop app has some features that the web browser version lacks, like video calling support, so I would argue the desktop app is probably what you would want to use as a WhatsApp user, but it's rather annoying that web apps are pushing so hard for people to install desktop applications when their web apps could have the same features if they bothered implementing them in a non-Electron environment.
    - archerx 3y ago
      They could easily add video chat to the web app with webRTC, so I’m guessing they want you on the desktop app asap to get all that juicy data. It’s unfortunate Firefox removed PWA features.
Stranger43 3y ago
It looks like MS response to completely missing the boat of the early web 1.0 and 2.0 development is to go all in trying to be less trustworthy then Meta, Google, tiktok, apple and amazon combined by ignoring all pretense to respecting any privacy standards. Individually the changes might look like things other SaaS vendors might do but combined it's clear that MS is the least restrained of the big players in the cloud/SaaS market.
pharrington 3y ago
Microsoft Edge is a unique type of prankware. Whoever's in charge of its development should at least be assigned, there is no excuse for how wildly user-hostile that thing is.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  The weird part is they didn't even wait until it built up a marketshare before they thoroughly enshittified it. It's actually worse than Chrome now with unrequested coupon and loan schemes.
  - georgemcbay 3y ago
    Yeah I actually switched to Edge pretty early on as a way of trying to disentangle some of my online identity away from Google because I wasn't (and still am not) happy with how much power they had over it. Not that I trust Microsoft any more than Google, but I figured they were less inclined to violate my privacy in the name of advertisers and other third parties since that wasn't their main business. Only lasted on Edge about 6 months before I abandoned it as it quickly ended up just as intrusive as Chrome, if not more so, while also being a far worse user experience.
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      Try Firefox. Despite Mozilla's (and especially Mitchell Baker's) best efforts, it's still a decent browser and not too bad for privacy..
  - bmicraft 3y ago
    They have other means of acquiring a user base, namely resetting you default browser every other major windows update.
- mistrial9 3y ago
  it is lawyers
- windowsrookie 3y ago
madsbuch 3y ago
I am wondering: Some engineers must have worked on this type of integration. Heck, some of them are probably also reading along here. What kind of narrative is being build around the feature to justify its implementation?
- huhtenberg 3y ago
  It's a $-denominated narrative. Dollars in, ethics out. Just like with every second high-tech company that pays their devs from the ad, tracking, invasive profiling, personal data aggregation and all other blatantly anti-person techs that fuels much of their business. Don't have to go far for examples.
- harshtruth3123 3y ago
  [dead]
- wirrbel 3y ago
  I imagine: "As a MS Edge user, I would like to have Chromium tabs readily available when I open MS Edge, so that I can continue working in MS Edge seamlessly ...."
  - madsbuch 3y ago
    This does sound quite reasonable. So the narrative is that this is a UX improvement.
    - thecatspaw 3y ago
      Well, it IS a UX Improvement. They just need to make sure that they are asking for consent properly and dont ignore the answer
      - madsbuch 3y ago
        So the current implementation has some non prioritised bugs laying around.
- 3y ago
zecg 3y ago
I use this: https://github.com/rcmaehl/MSEdgeRedirect https://github.com/rcmaehl/MSEdgeRedirect and am very satisfied.
nmstoker 3y ago
Good reason to sandbox apps, so they can't abuse other apps I wonder what 4% of MSFT worldwide annual revenue is!
- extraduder_ire 3y ago
  Has this even happened anywhere in the EEA yet though? I get the impression that MS will hold off on many of these changes across europe.
- nottorp 3y ago
  Eh, Edge is part of the operating system and can't be removed :) Tbh it's the same thing Apple would say about Safari, except they haven't tried to hijack my firefox tabs yet.
grey_earthling 3y ago
When you choose an OS, you're asking to receive the service of the OS-maker's judgement. So when you choose Windows, you're opting for Microsoft's judgement. That's what this is. “The food at McDonald's is consistently awful and I hate it, yet I continue eating solely at McDonald's for some reason.”
- bmicraft 3y ago
  But while you can just switch to another fast food chain of your choice, doing so with an operating system and losing years worth of experience + potentially paid software (games) is not something most people will choose to do on their own.
- devnullbrain 3y ago
  Buying McDonald's food does not make it legal for them to poison you. Buying Microsoft's OS does not make it legal for them to break antitrust law. Again.
Alifatisk 3y ago
Microsoft seriously don’t want to keep their users anymore
- jzb 3y ago
  How many people are actually going to switch, though? I’ve primarily used Linux for 25 years. Used to try to get people to switch. Microsoft would do something user hostile and people would complain, and then just go back to using Windows. A percentage switched to Apple, but they’re just bad in different ways. (Google, too, if you’re thinking about Chromebooks.) I’d love to believe “surely this” will be the thing, but I’m not optimistic. (Would love to be proven wrong!!)
  - TheCapeGreek 3y ago
    I've seen this sort of consumer inertia with lots of things. People just generally don't care about the topics as deeply as you or I. My personal bugbear here is Pokemon, for example. I've got acquaintances that outright say "I'll buy the next game no matter what" when each generation has a myriad of issues and lazy development. My recommendation? Be polite, but firmly call them out. "You complain, but you'll never do anything about it.". Don't ask them to switch, just point out that they won't. The point of it is to get them to self-reflect on that assertion, and maybe from that point they might do something about it. Just being offered a solution won't do anything (see user elsewhere in this post who says they unfortunately have to use Windows for gaming but refuse to use Proton)
    - tentacleuno 3y ago
      > see user elsewhere in this post who says they unfortunately have to use Windows for gaming but refuse to use Proton) To be fair, as good as Proton is, the API isn't fully compatible with Windows' (yet!) -- I can fully understand why someone would want to avoid the hassles of dealing with this.
- jeppester 3y ago
  It doesn't matter as long as you can hardly get a PC without Windows. It is a text book example of a monopoly which no longer has to care for its users.
Macha 3y ago
At what point does this go beyond dark patterns into illegal? Sure, they could argue that the users consented into uploading their passwords to Microsoft, but a phishing site could put in terms and conditions that says by entering your password into this fake bank site, it will be uploaded to ShadyFooCorp and that won't stop them getting prosecuted.
- lukan 3y ago
  ShadyFooCorp has not many, many contracts with the government. And the governments computers do not run on their OS. The only vaguely serious argumentation I can think of, is that they have the comfort and benefit of their users in mind and that they do not missuse the collected passwords in an obvious way.
  - jurynulifcation 3y ago
    Collecting the passwords is already an egregious overstep, which renders any usage a DAMNING misuse. Microsoft does not have the comfort or benefit of their users in mind, or they wouldn't do this. What a senseless notion. This is further aggression from a company attempting to take choice away from people using their software. It's not even vaguely serious argumentation, it's outright disingenuous and ridiculous.
- AndroTux 3y ago
  I'm sure many of these tactics are already illegal. But at this point that's just a marketing expense for them. I'm certain that whatever their fine will be, ist's nothing compared to how many user they managed to convert to Edge with this strategy.
lapcat 3y ago
"A professor says Edge is the worst for privacy." (2020) https://www.zdnet.com/article/a-professor-says-edge-is-the-worst-for-privacy-microsoft-isnt-happy/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/a-professor-says-edge-is-the-w...
lnxg33k1 3y ago
I just today installed windows in a virtual machine because I have an interview in the next few days, and ms teams is the schroedinger video call, dear satan are these people bad, from the inability to use it without a ms account because it doesn’t give the button to skip, but how much upselling of onedrive, office, edge, migration of data etc, just let me use the os and stfu
- rjst01 3y ago
  I've found myself setting up a new Windows install - sometimes VM, sometimes bare metal - every 4-8 weeks for the past 6 months and it's sooooo painful. My computer is a vehicle for getting work done - just let me use the damn thing.
  - jzombie 3y ago
    Why not take a snapshot image of the base install and just revert to that?
- stevehawk 3y ago
  it's worse than that.. if you spam alt+f4 or wait long enough it will eventually let you install without an MS account
  - lnxg33k1 3y ago
    Oh thank you very much for the information kind stranger
    - jzombie 3y ago
      Press Shift + F10 to launch the command prompt then type in 'OOBE\BYPASSNRO' and press Enter. The system will reboot and you can proceed without a MS account. I did this a couple of times lately on a bare metal install as well as in a VM.
- jzombie 3y ago
  I used MS Teams via a web browser using Linux for a couple of years. Should support video calling via WebRTC.
BLKNSLVR 3y ago
They're trying very hard to make up for the tracking and personal data they cut themselves off from when exiting the smartphone biz. However their behaviour with Windows and Edge makes me wonder what telemetric-hell their phones would have been by this point.
dev1ycan 3y ago
I use edge solely to spite Google, I know it's a privacy nightmare but Google asked for it with the web changes they're trying to implement
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
TypicalHog 3y ago
That's some malware level stuff right there if you ask me.
imchillyb 3y ago
MS has been a front for the US’ three letter organizations for over a decade now. Telemetry requested by the Feds. Online accounts requested by the Feds. Edge integration into the OS requested by the Feds. Don’t listen to what these orgs have to say. Just watch what they do and see who it benefits. Like Colombo used to say: Follow the money.
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
[dupe] Help the ppl out, Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39179929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39179929
HumblyTossed 3y ago
Who are the devs and managers implementing this crap?? I know you're lurking around here! Stop.Doing.This.Crap!!!! Behave
- stetrain 3y ago
  But the user metrics line for my department must go up! Anyway I'm off to implement more push notifications for things the user hasn't asked for.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dopu 3y ago
I recently decided to open up Edge and see how it was, given that it is the only browser on Windows which features hardware isolation [0]. Though it seems like this feature is deprecated now. The sheer amount of garbage I had to turn off made me give up and close it half way through. Which is a shame, because there seems to be good tech underneath all the garbage. [0]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/microsoft-edge-security-windows-defender-application-guard https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/microsoft-edge-...
masfoobar 3y ago
As someone who sticks with Debian Linux, the only times I use Windows is in the workplace. I leave the internals of Windows to the infrastructure team. How they setup their users, updates, etc.. is not of my concern. I only use work laptop for work. Sometimes, however, I come across trying a modern Windows. To install and setup myself. For example, the mother-in-law buying a new laptop. I just cringe at all the new rubbish I have to do. Last time I had to create an account. The crap on the taskbar (news, weather) to Microsoft Edge.. and all inbetween. I am a proud user of Debian. It might not be perfect and I might not be able to play the latest games... but it provides everything I need.. which is the bare minimum! (Yes I know Steam has come a long way in recent years... but point stands) I just wish more people would move away from Windows. Yes, gamers may have to sacrifice their games if not supported... but companies go where the money is, including game devs. Sadly, as computers get better and better.. and more convenient, the more freedoms you lose. People dont care.

337 points by fauigerzigerk 3y ago

This is unfortunately not new, I reported the same behavior here on HN 2 months ago, and how I uninstalled Edge via the new EU DMA update to keep it from sending my browser history (of any browser) to Microsoft, potentially, probably. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38430102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38430102

radiKal07 3y ago

No idea why you guys put up with this bullshit. I use Safari on macOS, it works great. I use Firefox on my Windows PC, it works great.

eimrine 3y ago
Your jails are working as intended.
- dotcoma 3y ago
  No one is free. Even the birds are chained to the sky. — Bob Dylan
  - eimrine 3y ago
    Birds have no risk to fall down into a tyranny, they have no reason to figth for democracy, they don't even see any targeted ads.
    - dotcoma 3y ago
      > they don't even see any targeted ads. Neither do I. All it takes is Ublock Origin.
    - lozf 3y ago
      They likely would if only they had money to spend. Someone would at least try.
  - AniseAbyss 3y ago
    The best I can do is pirate software and use ad blocking tools. Still a slave but not a paying one.
- thimp 3y ago
  Better a Norwegian prison than a Soviet gulag.
ActionHank 3y ago
Given MS being horribly anti-user these days, monetizing each user to be farmed like cattle and Apple's massive anti-consumer malicious compliance to any legal rulings, more people should be considering Linux. It's fast. It respects the user. Games work beautifully with proton. Most software has an equivalent on Linux if they don't offer their own binaries. More and more I don't understand the desire or need to generate revenue for companies that treat you like dumb cattle.
- dotcoma 3y ago
  Not a SWE here. Used Ubuntu from 2006 to 2011. It used to take some effort, compared to OSX. But if we’re talking Linux vs Windows, I completely agree.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    Ubuntu went a looong way since then. Even debian is not longer scary-scary.
  - ActionHank 3y ago
    I hear you, but they've all moved along in leaps and bounds. Some options if you ever look again - * ElementaryOS(https://elementary.io/ https://elementary.io/) * PopOS(https://pop.system76.com/ https://pop.system76.com/) * Linux Mint(https://linuxmint.com/ https://linuxmint.com/) * As always, Ubuntu(https://ubuntu.com/ https://ubuntu.com/) All solid, functional, and not treating you like cattle.
    - dotcoma 3y ago
      Thanks. Pretty happy with OSX, and also happy to be spending less time in front of a computer :)
    - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
      Last week my wife got prompted by Ubuntu's automatic software update to install a security update that required signing up to some paid Ubuntu subscription. I'm not sure this is really what it meant (I didn't see the prompt myself), but it was what Ubuntu made her believe. After updating without this "option", all her VirtualBox VMs stopped working (I don't mean to imply that these two issues are linked).
dspillett 3y ago
On this particular issue Firefox-on-windows is unlikely to be a solution. If they can and are doing it to Chrome on Windows they can to Firefox too. It might be more work as Edge doesn't share a codebase with Firefox like it does with Chrome, but unless FF is somehow encrypting everything in a way that blocks MS⁰ it won't be particularly difficult. -- [0] Likely impossible. Even making it difficult enough to slow MS if they had the intention is likely completely impractical.
Dalewyn 3y ago
Because I use computers to do things, and Windows is the right tool for the job in the vast majority of cases. No, please don't suggest Linux or FOSS alternatives. They are all dead on arrival. I need Office, not LibreOffice. I need Photoshop, not GIMP. I need Illustrator, not Inkscape. I want Windows, not Proton. I need a computer, not a tinkerer's toy.
- eimrine 3y ago
  That sounds like an anti-openness manifesto. Pleace hide the source code from me and squeeze as much profits as possible!
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    I don't care if the code is closed or open, because I use computers to do things. Computers are tools to let me achieve things, thusly I care about the results and not about the process (eg: closed vs. open). I don't care to computer either, because that's not what I consider computers to be at my point in life. I use tools, not tool tools.
    - eimrine 3y ago
      > I use tools, not tool tools. You remind me typical pro-Russian men who claim they are non-interesting in politics with no realizing their choice "not to be interested in politics" is a pro-war choice.
    - the_third_wave 3y ago
      > Computers are tools to let me achieve things Computers are tools to run software. Software is what makes (or breaks) the computer a useful tool. A computer without software is just as useful as a lump of pig iron: handy as a paper weight but no more. Closed software which locks your data in its grasp may be OK for some purposes but in the long run it nearly always ends up causing problems - try opening an older Word file in current Word [1] for an example of such. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38906331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38906331
thimp 3y ago
It's not just the browser, it's the OS as well, at least on Windows 11. Literally everything is optimised to force you to try and use Bing and Edge. If I hit start, I get bing, if I run updates it tries to sell me Bing and Edge. If I use edge it throws me at the microsoft portal all the time and I have to futz around with it to disable CoPilot integration and add extensions to give me a blank new tab page etc. Then I get an update. Oh and next thing I know it's trying to sell me vouchers. And then the other day it ripped off all my Chrome credentials which I keep separate. I don't even know how it did it. The final straw was on my pixel 7a when I opened the outlook app and found there's a fucking garbage feeds and subscriptions tab in it now which just pipes crap to you. I got fed up with it at the start of December last year and rinsed my credit card in the Apple Store. I walked out with an MBP and an iPhone and neither have not yet kicked me in the nuts once. I'm slowly porting my data over at the moment and then I'm chucking this crap on ebay and never touching it again. Well done Microsoft. You burned a 30 year long developer relationship.
neilv 3y ago
> No idea why you guys put up with this bullshit. I use [...] macOS, That's the authoritarian alternative, to the perpetually backstabbing option. Debian Stable is the actually wholesome marriage material. https://www.debian.org/distrib/ https://www.debian.org/distrib/
- devnullbrain 3y ago
  >Debian OK, sure >Stable Masochism
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    Well, then install the testing version and complain on HN that Linux is broken and won't stay working for long. (Even though the MTBF of Debian testing is at least 5 times larger than Windows.)
    - devnullbrain 3y ago
      It's the other way around. Trying to search for problems with Stable is more difficult because potential fixes require things your OS doesn't have yet.
      - neilv 3y ago
        I haven't much had this problem with Debian Stable. For awhile, there would be a thing with people using, say, JS libraries, and they'd want to Stack Overflow copy&paste something. But the more reckless of those people just ended up bypassing Debian with NPM or some other language-specific package manager. And less-reckless people can decide when they can just use Debian or have to pull select bits of software some other way.

greenyoda 3y ago

Discussion from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39179929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39179929

charcircuit 3y ago

This is Window's security model in action. Nothing stops Microsoft from developing a feature to compile browser history, bookmarks, previously opened tabs, etc all into one place for the user's convenience. On mobile platforms app's don't have permission to do such a thing.

eimrine 3y ago
> On mobile platforms app's don't have permission to do such a thing. Very doubtful. If you turn on GPS for one app, all ads in all apps at all begin to be better targeted immediately. Especially noticeable if there were a big travel since the previous GPS usage.
- datadrivenangel 3y ago
  That's because most of the ads come through a few ad networks, so if they get location from one app, they have the profile on you.
bonton89 3y ago
Even if Microsoft had a proper sandbox system they would have exempted themselves from it "for security scanning and product improvement". It isn't the apps that are the problem, it is Microsoft.

dspillett 3y ago

> and stored passwords […] it'll also sync that data to the cloud too Yet another reason to keep my auth details in a separate store and not let any browser get its grubby mits on them beyond when they are actually needed.

isoprophlex 3y ago

Imagine being CISO or any other high level manager doing information security, and your entire corporation runs Microsoft workstations. Every week there's a new headache to keep you awake at night; did you pay those leeches enough for an enterprise license that doesn't silently exfiltrate all your employees' data? Will they roll out the latest greatest data vacuuming feature to your install base? Fun times!

_cenw 3y ago
This behavior is in fact limited to "consumer" Windows 11 SKUs (so Home and Pro), and also disables when using Pro domain-joined. But bet on it migrating to the business SKUs eventually.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Bingo. Microsoft is careful to only screw consumers who don't know any better (they already surrendered their personal data and ownership of their digital purchases and devices to Google, Meta, Amazon, Apple, Sony, Samsung, etc. what's one more?) and to not fuck over their most loyal cash cow (businesses).
  - HPsquared 3y ago
    The home versions being "untrustworthy" also could help push sales of the business version. Especially with things being done more in the browser, the "business features" of the OS are less of a draw. So they need to instead put anti-features in the home version to deter business users from "cheaping out".
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >The home versions being "untrustworthy" also could help push sales of the business version. How so? Consumers don't have easy access to the Business version AFAIK, and businesses will always buy the Business version anyway.

dekken_ 3y ago

at what point does this become theft?

0xEF 3y ago
At the point where laws are enacted the protect the user and their respective data, as well as punishment for breaking said laws is more than just a monetary fine. We can have the protective laws all day, but fines are basically just a license to break them, especially when we are talking about something as lucrative as user data. When the regulatory bodies start to have more power than the corporations they regulate, we will see change. So, you know, probably never.
rkagerer 3y ago
The problem with civil litigation against some of these dark patterns is it can be challenging to show quantifiable harm to a magnitude that makes it worth pursuing. Fortunately judges are becoming more keyed-in to the intrinsic value of privacy.
- ipython 3y ago
  Ironic given one of yesterdays front page stories on hn was how to respond to a c&d letter from a large tech company where they claim violation of ToS for some tool you built to automate processes on a “free” website.
realusername 3y ago
That is probably legally dubious in the EU at least

exceptione 3y ago

- You can only run Windows safely on a machine disconnected from the internet and your internal network. - If you have nothing of value, like if all you have is just some games, you could run Windows on bare metal, but make sure to shield your internal network from it. - Running anti-virus on what is essentially a really nasty virus makes no sense, as are the various tweak tools that give you a false sense of security.

shp0ngle 3y ago
You need to use LTSC, the only good version of Windows. It doesn't have Edge. Unfortunately they don't really sell you license legally as an individual. There are shady resellers online.
- dartharva 3y ago
  There are several ISO dumps available on the internet that you can download untouched LTSC images from. You can check the hashes from the official Microsoft support site if you need to be sure.
- jacooper 3y ago
  Afaik it lacks a few things important for gaming on new machines.
  - rkagerer 3y ago
    Like what?
    - gray_-_wolf 3y ago
      I had driver issues, the nvidia drivers refused to install on LTSC due to "system too old" error. True, at the time it was very new laptop, and it would probably work fine if I tried it now.
    - mananaysiempre 3y ago
      Better support for scheduling on Intel’s heterogeneous cores (≥12th gen CPUs) and AMD’s aggressive dynamic frequency scaling (Ryzen 7040) isn’t coming to Windows 10 ever, from what I understand.

lousken 3y ago

Isn't this gdpr violation?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nottorp 3y ago
Probably not. They don't need to send your data to Microsoft's servers to import the tabs in Edge. Now if Edge also auto activates some sync service that sends your tabs to MS...

hooby 3y ago

Two questions: 1) Do I have to actively use Edge - or does this happen automatically in the background - even if I never open an Edge window? 2) Does any of the data gathered that way find it's way into Windows telemetry (anonymized or not)? Since I'm neither "allowed" to uninstall Edge, nor "allowed" to fully disable telemetry... Someone in here writes that there is a possibility that Edge sends its browser history (imported or not) to Microsoft servers...

computerfriend 3y ago
You are allowed to uninstall MS Windows though.
- hooby 3y ago
  It seems like that's truly becoming the only option for people who want to some semblance of control over what happens on their computers.
whyoh 3y ago
In the EEA (EU), you'll be able to uninstall Edge easily, with an update in the coming weeks: https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2023/11/16/previewing-changes-in-windows-to-comply-with-the-digital-markets-act-in-the-european-economic-area/ https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2023/11/16/preview... (And I'm guessing it won't be hard to do that outside the EEA either.)
e40 3y ago
Would really love to see an answer to (1).

rowanG077 3y ago

It's very clear why windows usage is dwindling year after year. Windows 7 was the last good windows version. 8 was trash and 10 introduced ads and other extreme anti-features. The search in windows has never been worse. I'm thinking MS just doesn't care about it anymore given they have azure.

Retr0id 3y ago
I wonder what percentage of users these days deliberately make use of local files, as opposed to The Cloud. Maybe local search is considered a niche feature now (I have no idea if this is true or not, and I really hope that it isn't).
- beAbU 3y ago
  If you sign in to a onedrive/MS account on windows it'll set all the default file explorer directories to your mounted cloud drive. Newer versions of Office defaults to the cloud directory when you are trying to save a file. It's an absolute hassle to do something as simple as save a file to my hard drive. I had to set up my wife's laptop with a MS account a while back, since she got an office license she wanted to use. She's a big Sims 3 and 4 player. Sims stores it's save files by default in the "my documents" directory. Sims game save files are huge. The moment I signed in to a MS account on the laptop, the damn thing converted the whole user folder to a cloud folder, and subsequently started uploading dozens of gigabytes of Sims save files, without my consent or asking me beforehand.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    Not excusing the overall behavior, but just FYI there's a checkbox somewhere on the onedrive first login process that changes this. At least on the Win10 version of it.
wkat4242 3y ago
> I'm thinking MS just doesn't care about it anymore given they have azure. Not just azure but Microsoft 365 They're no longer a software company, they're a services company. Windows is no longer a huge part of their revenue.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

fifteen1506 3y ago

Don't worry, let market fix it.

zeroCalories 3y ago
The market is fine with this behavior. Don't confuse your desires for the market's desires and cry about it.
- drooopy 3y ago
  The market is fine? Do you have any sources to back that up? I'd argue that my family with its rampant technological illiteracy are part of "the market" and they would all throw a hissy fit if their environment and work flow suddenly changed after a reboot.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  The dam is fine with these cracks and leaks. ... Until it's not.
- fifteen1506 3y ago
  I agree. The market's fine.
drooopy 3y ago
You're right. This is totally not predatory behaviour and there's absolutely no need for any sort of regulation.
- spacechild1 3y ago
  I think (or rather hope) parent was just being sarcastic.
  - drooopy 3y ago
    I hope so too.

thombles 3y ago

We're not even near the end of this process. Every thing that occurs on (ostensibly) your PC must be uploaded and processed by Bing AI so you can be "productive" while utterly dependent on the cloud and viewing as many MSN ads as possible. I had high hopes for Edge once but it's become clear that it's just a value-extraction funnel.

zer00eyz 3y ago

M$ is still M$ Linkedin, Github, Copilot(just no, but people swear by it), VS code... How long before M$ takes github down the same road as sourceforge (for those who dont know: https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/rise-fall-slashdot-media/ https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/rise-fall-slashdot-media/ )

CalRobert 3y ago
Already seeing a push to redefine "git" as github, sadly.
- rhdunn 3y ago
  We need some Gitea sent to the GitLab! :) Make people aware that there are more options for self-hosted git.
- weikju 3y ago
  copilot, github, codespaces, vscode, vscode-server: a push to move all development to MS's cloud and out of the hands/power of the little people.
TheRealDunkirk 3y ago
All they need to do is buy StackOverflow from the PE that owns it now, and the circle will be completely jerked.
lioeters 3y ago
VSCode and GitHub are honestly great at what they do, granted there are valid criticisms. These are essential daily tools for a sizable population of users, including myself. I think Microsoft has earned a lot of good will by cultivating these, as well as TypeScript and other open-source developer-oriented projects. Maybe not enough good will though, to recover their reputation from historic and on-going user-hostile moves. I'm really praying that Microsoft doesn't ruin these projects like they've been doing with Windows and Edge.
- 65 3y ago

mbwgh 3y ago

Even Firefox will in general not protect you I believe. I showed my mom how she can use 'web.whatsapp.com' to use Whatsapp more easily (in order to share screenshots or links with others). After logging in, a notification about Whatsapp having been installed from the app store popped up after a few seconds. And indeed, the Desktop app had been installed, without any user interaction whatsoever. I am not even sure how this was initiated, but I believe DoH being disabled by default probably has to do with it. Edit: Like a lot of comments have suggested, I most likely remember this wrong. I tried to reproduce this (after "forgetting about" whatsapp.com in Firefox and uninstalling the app) and was unable to. I did encounter three separate "install the app" buttons, all of which however yielded an additional installation prompt from the app store. Apologies. FWIW, according to https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web_apps/Guides/Installing https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web... Firefox does not support PWAs without an extension, so that wasn't it either.

archerx 3y ago
Sounds like a progressive web app, they probably trick you into triggering the pwa install command.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  I don't think it's a PWA if she was using Firefox, because Firefox removed the little PWA functionality their desktop browser offered a while ago (this is one of the reasons I still have Chromium installed). I imagine during the process, WhatsApp opened an ms-store: link that launched the Microsoft Store, and not knowing better, they clicked "install" when prompted. The desktop app has some features that the web browser version lacks, like video calling support, so I would argue the desktop app is probably what you would want to use as a WhatsApp user, but it's rather annoying that web apps are pushing so hard for people to install desktop applications when their web apps could have the same features if they bothered implementing them in a non-Electron environment.
  - archerx 3y ago
    They could easily add video chat to the web app with webRTC, so I’m guessing they want you on the desktop app asap to get all that juicy data. It’s unfortunate Firefox removed PWA features.

Stranger43 3y ago

It looks like MS response to completely missing the boat of the early web 1.0 and 2.0 development is to go all in trying to be less trustworthy then Meta, Google, tiktok, apple and amazon combined by ignoring all pretense to respecting any privacy standards. Individually the changes might look like things other SaaS vendors might do but combined it's clear that MS is the least restrained of the big players in the cloud/SaaS market.

pharrington 3y ago

Microsoft Edge is a unique type of prankware. Whoever's in charge of its development should at least be assigned, there is no excuse for how wildly user-hostile that thing is.

wkat4242 3y ago
The weird part is they didn't even wait until it built up a marketshare before they thoroughly enshittified it. It's actually worse than Chrome now with unrequested coupon and loan schemes.
- georgemcbay 3y ago
  Yeah I actually switched to Edge pretty early on as a way of trying to disentangle some of my online identity away from Google because I wasn't (and still am not) happy with how much power they had over it. Not that I trust Microsoft any more than Google, but I figured they were less inclined to violate my privacy in the name of advertisers and other third parties since that wasn't their main business. Only lasted on Edge about 6 months before I abandoned it as it quickly ended up just as intrusive as Chrome, if not more so, while also being a far worse user experience.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Try Firefox. Despite Mozilla's (and especially Mitchell Baker's) best efforts, it's still a decent browser and not too bad for privacy..
- bmicraft 3y ago
  They have other means of acquiring a user base, namely resetting you default browser every other major windows update.
mistrial9 3y ago
it is lawyers
windowsrookie 3y ago

madsbuch 3y ago

I am wondering: Some engineers must have worked on this type of integration. Heck, some of them are probably also reading along here. What kind of narrative is being build around the feature to justify its implementation?

huhtenberg 3y ago
It's a $-denominated narrative. Dollars in, ethics out. Just like with every second high-tech company that pays their devs from the ad, tracking, invasive profiling, personal data aggregation and all other blatantly anti-person techs that fuels much of their business. Don't have to go far for examples.
harshtruth3123 3y ago
[dead]
wirrbel 3y ago
I imagine: "As a MS Edge user, I would like to have Chromium tabs readily available when I open MS Edge, so that I can continue working in MS Edge seamlessly ...."
- madsbuch 3y ago
  This does sound quite reasonable. So the narrative is that this is a UX improvement.
  - thecatspaw 3y ago
    Well, it IS a UX Improvement. They just need to make sure that they are asking for consent properly and dont ignore the answer
    - madsbuch 3y ago
      So the current implementation has some non prioritised bugs laying around.
3y ago

zecg 3y ago

I use this: https://github.com/rcmaehl/MSEdgeRedirect https://github.com/rcmaehl/MSEdgeRedirect and am very satisfied.

nmstoker 3y ago

Good reason to sandbox apps, so they can't abuse other apps I wonder what 4% of MSFT worldwide annual revenue is!

extraduder_ire 3y ago
Has this even happened anywhere in the EEA yet though? I get the impression that MS will hold off on many of these changes across europe.
nottorp 3y ago
Eh, Edge is part of the operating system and can't be removed :) Tbh it's the same thing Apple would say about Safari, except they haven't tried to hijack my firefox tabs yet.

grey_earthling 3y ago

When you choose an OS, you're asking to receive the service of the OS-maker's judgement. So when you choose Windows, you're opting for Microsoft's judgement. That's what this is. “The food at McDonald's is consistently awful and I hate it, yet I continue eating solely at McDonald's for some reason.”

bmicraft 3y ago
But while you can just switch to another fast food chain of your choice, doing so with an operating system and losing years worth of experience + potentially paid software (games) is not something most people will choose to do on their own.
devnullbrain 3y ago
Buying McDonald's food does not make it legal for them to poison you. Buying Microsoft's OS does not make it legal for them to break antitrust law. Again.

Alifatisk 3y ago

Microsoft seriously don’t want to keep their users anymore

jzb 3y ago
How many people are actually going to switch, though? I’ve primarily used Linux for 25 years. Used to try to get people to switch. Microsoft would do something user hostile and people would complain, and then just go back to using Windows. A percentage switched to Apple, but they’re just bad in different ways. (Google, too, if you’re thinking about Chromebooks.) I’d love to believe “surely this” will be the thing, but I’m not optimistic. (Would love to be proven wrong!!)
- TheCapeGreek 3y ago
  I've seen this sort of consumer inertia with lots of things. People just generally don't care about the topics as deeply as you or I. My personal bugbear here is Pokemon, for example. I've got acquaintances that outright say "I'll buy the next game no matter what" when each generation has a myriad of issues and lazy development. My recommendation? Be polite, but firmly call them out. "You complain, but you'll never do anything about it.". Don't ask them to switch, just point out that they won't. The point of it is to get them to self-reflect on that assertion, and maybe from that point they might do something about it. Just being offered a solution won't do anything (see user elsewhere in this post who says they unfortunately have to use Windows for gaming but refuse to use Proton)
  - tentacleuno 3y ago
    > see user elsewhere in this post who says they unfortunately have to use Windows for gaming but refuse to use Proton) To be fair, as good as Proton is, the API isn't fully compatible with Windows' (yet!) -- I can fully understand why someone would want to avoid the hassles of dealing with this.
jeppester 3y ago
It doesn't matter as long as you can hardly get a PC without Windows. It is a text book example of a monopoly which no longer has to care for its users.

Macha 3y ago

At what point does this go beyond dark patterns into illegal? Sure, they could argue that the users consented into uploading their passwords to Microsoft, but a phishing site could put in terms and conditions that says by entering your password into this fake bank site, it will be uploaded to ShadyFooCorp and that won't stop them getting prosecuted.

lukan 3y ago
ShadyFooCorp has not many, many contracts with the government. And the governments computers do not run on their OS. The only vaguely serious argumentation I can think of, is that they have the comfort and benefit of their users in mind and that they do not missuse the collected passwords in an obvious way.
- jurynulifcation 3y ago
  Collecting the passwords is already an egregious overstep, which renders any usage a DAMNING misuse. Microsoft does not have the comfort or benefit of their users in mind, or they wouldn't do this. What a senseless notion. This is further aggression from a company attempting to take choice away from people using their software. It's not even vaguely serious argumentation, it's outright disingenuous and ridiculous.
AndroTux 3y ago
I'm sure many of these tactics are already illegal. But at this point that's just a marketing expense for them. I'm certain that whatever their fine will be, ist's nothing compared to how many user they managed to convert to Edge with this strategy.

lapcat 3y ago

"A professor says Edge is the worst for privacy." (2020) https://www.zdnet.com/article/a-professor-says-edge-is-the-worst-for-privacy-microsoft-isnt-happy/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/a-professor-says-edge-is-the-w...

lnxg33k1 3y ago

I just today installed windows in a virtual machine because I have an interview in the next few days, and ms teams is the schroedinger video call, dear satan are these people bad, from the inability to use it without a ms account because it doesn’t give the button to skip, but how much upselling of onedrive, office, edge, migration of data etc, just let me use the os and stfu

rjst01 3y ago
I've found myself setting up a new Windows install - sometimes VM, sometimes bare metal - every 4-8 weeks for the past 6 months and it's sooooo painful. My computer is a vehicle for getting work done - just let me use the damn thing.
- jzombie 3y ago
  Why not take a snapshot image of the base install and just revert to that?
stevehawk 3y ago
it's worse than that.. if you spam alt+f4 or wait long enough it will eventually let you install without an MS account
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  Oh thank you very much for the information kind stranger
  - jzombie 3y ago
    Press Shift + F10 to launch the command prompt then type in 'OOBE\BYPASSNRO' and press Enter. The system will reboot and you can proceed without a MS account. I did this a couple of times lately on a bare metal install as well as in a VM.
jzombie 3y ago
I used MS Teams via a web browser using Linux for a couple of years. Should support video calling via WebRTC.

BLKNSLVR 3y ago

They're trying very hard to make up for the tracking and personal data they cut themselves off from when exiting the smartphone biz. However their behaviour with Windows and Edge makes me wonder what telemetric-hell their phones would have been by this point.

dev1ycan 3y ago

I use edge solely to spite Google, I know it's a privacy nightmare but Google asked for it with the web changes they're trying to implement

deleted 3y ago

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TypicalHog 3y ago

That's some malware level stuff right there if you ask me.

imchillyb 3y ago

MS has been a front for the US’ three letter organizations for over a decade now. Telemetry requested by the Feds. Online accounts requested by the Feds. Edge integration into the OS requested by the Feds. Don’t listen to what these orgs have to say. Just watch what they do and see who it benefits. Like Colombo used to say: Follow the money.

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

[dupe] Help the ppl out, Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39179929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39179929

HumblyTossed 3y ago

Who are the devs and managers implementing this crap?? I know you're lurking around here! Stop.Doing.This.Crap!!!! Behave

stetrain 3y ago
But the user metrics line for my department must go up! Anyway I'm off to implement more push notifications for things the user hasn't asked for.

deleted 3y ago

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dopu 3y ago

I recently decided to open up Edge and see how it was, given that it is the only browser on Windows which features hardware isolation [0]. Though it seems like this feature is deprecated now. The sheer amount of garbage I had to turn off made me give up and close it half way through. Which is a shame, because there seems to be good tech underneath all the garbage. [0]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/microsoft-edge-security-windows-defender-application-guard https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/microsoft-edge-...

masfoobar 3y ago

As someone who sticks with Debian Linux, the only times I use Windows is in the workplace. I leave the internals of Windows to the infrastructure team. How they setup their users, updates, etc.. is not of my concern. I only use work laptop for work. Sometimes, however, I come across trying a modern Windows. To install and setup myself. For example, the mother-in-law buying a new laptop. I just cringe at all the new rubbish I have to do. Last time I had to create an account. The crap on the taskbar (news, weather) to Microsoft Edge.. and all inbetween. I am a proud user of Debian. It might not be perfect and I might not be able to play the latest games... but it provides everything I need.. which is the bare minimum! (Yes I know Steam has come a long way in recent years... but point stands) I just wish more people would move away from Windows. Yes, gamers may have to sacrifice their games if not supported... but companies go where the money is, including game devs. Sadly, as computers get better and better.. and more convenient, the more freedoms you lose. People dont care.