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I'm going to avoid the snarky "hire an attorney" answer but once you get past that necessary first step I do have a few tips: * get comfortable reading leg

I'm going to avoid the snarky "hire an attorney" answer but once you get past that necessary first step I do have a few tips: * get comfortable reading legal documents, this will allow you to have more intelligent conversations with your attorney * don't let your attorney make your business decisions, one of their jobs is to point out risks, one of your jobs (owner/ceo/leadership) is to figure out how to mitigate risk but that is not the same thing as avoiding all risks * learn to draft legalese, it will help minimize your attorney's billable hours

mysterydip 3y ago
I appreciate that. As someone with a hobby making software, I can see the need for hiring at some point but I don't even know where to start. Do you just look up one online and call and say "I got a nasty letter, will you be my attorney"? Is there some kind of ongoing subscription cost to keep being "my attorney" or just pay per hour when you have an issue?
- chociej 3y ago
  For small, transactional dealings where the amount of work is easy to predict, there may just be a fixed fee for that. For more open-ended work, it is often billed by the hour (time and expense). If the work is non-trivial, they may ask for a retainer, which is a down payment against future hourly work and expenses incurred by the firm. Another common billing model, called contingency, is generally reserved for cases where the firm is optimistic they will be able to receive a significant monetary judgment or settlement, which they will take part of for their time and effort.
- hiddencost 3y ago
  Getting connected to an attorney by someone you trust is the best path. Just picking one after googling is dangerous. Expect to pay more than you expect to pay. ETA: America is a "pay to play" country, and those payments are mediated by lawyers. What I mean is: enforcement of laws mostly happens via suing people, and you need to be able to pay an attorney to win that suit.
- ncallaway 3y ago
  I’d start by asking people around you if they know an attorney. Recommendations from people you know will almost always be more valuable than a Google search. If you don’t know anyone that would be in the area of law that you’re looking for, ask for _any_ attorney recommendations, then ask those attorneys for recommendations for people in the area of law you need. If you absolutely cannot find a lawyer through people you know (and, really, try asking people), then you can look up a lawyer referral service for your state. Most state or county bars will have some program for making referrals to lawyers. Often these will have a low-ish flat fee, which will get your a short initial consultation with a few lawyers in the relevant area of law. For billing, it’s something to ask your lawyer, thought most lawyers will have some kind of billing program where you pay hourly for what you use, and don’t need to pay some ongoing fee just to have the lawyer as “your lawyer”. Small business that only need a lawyer for a few hours a couple times a year aren’t uncommon clients for business lawyers.
  - KieranMac 3y ago
    The problem with this advice is that this is a very niche area of law. Unless the people you know have had prior experiences with data-access/web-scraping legal issues, a generalist recommendation is very unlikely to be helpful here.
    - ncallaway 3y ago
      > If you don’t know anyone that would be in the area of law that you’re looking for, ask for _any_ attorney recommendations, then ask those attorneys for recommendations for people in the area of law you need. Attorneys know attorneys. I’d still recommend starting with your network, then asking those attorneys who they would recommend for the services you need. Or ask them if they know anyone that might be able to refer you.
      - KieranMac 3y ago
        There are probably two dozen specialists on this issue nationwide. A properly targeted Google search will outperform your personal network of attorneys (and their network of attorneys) 99.9% of the time.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > I can see the need for hiring at some point but I don't even know where to start. I have advice for this. Most attorneys, at least in my area, will sit down and talk with you at no charge. My advice is to take advantage of this before you have an actual issue that needs attention and talk with a few of them. Investigate them, talk to their clients if you can, ask about them with professional organizations, etc. And then just use them for routine stuff every so often. Run contracts by them before you sign, etc. The idea is that you want to develop a relationship with them so that you and they know each other. Then, if something comes up where you really need an attorney, yours is already very familiar with you and what you're doing. > Is there some kind of ongoing subscription cost to keep being "my attorney" or just pay per hour when you have an issue? There is a concept of keeping an attorney "on retainer" -- which basically means prepaying for legal services. At a small scale, this isn't worth doing. Treat your attorney like your auto mechanic: keep a relationship going, go to them for your oil changes and other routine stuff, and pay by the hour. Then when you need important work done, they're primed and ready.
  - KieranMac 3y ago
    This is all good advice.
chaps 3y ago
I often need legal support for things (CFAA threat every few years and litigation for FOIA work), and this list matches my experiences. A lot of the work is just building a relationship with an attorney or firm you can trust.
phasetransition 3y ago
As the (non lawyer) who fell into managing all US legal firm interactions for my day job, I support this list. If you are comfortable with legal documents; have a law dictionary to understand what specific language means; and read historical case law on the topic in question, you will be well prepared to have a seat at the table with your attorneys.
- feoren 3y ago
  > read historical case law on the topic in question Is this even at all accessible to anyone who isn't already in a major law firm? I'm assuming it requires some sort of thousand-dollar subscription to an exploitative publishing house?
  - nl 3y ago
    > I'm assuming it requires some sort of thousand-dollar subscription to an exploitative publishing house? Assuming you are in the US, all case law is public domain (although documents used in cases aren't) https://guides.loc.gov/case-law/databases-online-resources https://guides.loc.gov/case-law/databases-online-resources
  - bombcar 3y ago
    You just need a law library nearby. Most moderate-sized cities have them. If not, call the city or county clerk and ask, they often have access at the courthouse to PACER and friends.
    - Scoundreller 3y ago
      Any big case you want to read about, and many more, will be on RECAP (pacer backwards). https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/ https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/ Put it in your deepweb toolbox. You can also get some free credit every quarter on PACER. With the recap extension, you can contribute that to RECAP automagically.
rendaw 3y ago
Okay, since you failed to avoid the snarky "hire an attorney" thing, I'm going to ask: how much would it reasonably cost to hire an attorney for advice on this? Assuming the contacting lawyer is on shaky ground. No "it depends" please, a ballpark. Maybe it's cheaper to have one on retainer. How much per month, if like a normal citizen your only daily legal risks are random megacorporations threatening you? Should everyone in the US have a lawyer on call? Should we consider it a normal tax for being a member of the US legal system? An insurance everyone signs up for like drivers insurance and life insurance? Is this only a concern for software developers?
- coldpie 3y ago
  > Should everyone in the US have a lawyer on call? I had a coworker at a previous job who often talked about "her family's attorney." I'm like, families have attorneys? I don't think I've talked to a lawyer once in my life.
  - nick222226 3y ago
    I would guess later in life when your insurance agent or tax prep person find out you didn't fill out a will yet and introduces you or encourages you to have an attorney write one with you. Now your family has an attorney! That or going through a family estate.
  - Culonavirus 3y ago
    A coworker's wife's friend is an attorney. So he's "his family's attorney" now, because of course he is. My landlord is a dentist, so he's my dentist now, because of course he is... That's how it mostly works... I guess :P
    - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
      The only time I've ever needed a lawyer was for a small side business I had at the time. One of our customers had an unpaid invoice that was past 90 days, and they were not responding to phone calls. Happily, my business partner's brother was a lawyer and she asked him to send out a dunning letter. We had the money within days :-)
hodgesrm 3y ago
> * get comfortable reading legal documents, this will allow you to have more intelligent conversations with your attorney Another tip. Hire an attorney who will teach you how to do this effectively. A simple rule of thumb is to consult with an attorney when you don't understand something. A good attorney will walk you through the issue, explain the possible ramifications, and (most importantly!) show you the standard response(s). Next time you can do it yourself. Also, you'll ask more focused questions the next time a novel issue pops up on that topic. That also saves money. In summary, think of your attorney as a mentor not a robot to provide legal advice.
NikolaNovak 3y ago
I feel in particular your second point is similar to a security officer. Their job is to identify risk and propose the safest approach. But in extreme, the safest approach is to shutdown and do nothing - the only truly unbreakable system. For any functioning system, ultimately a business owner will need to decide (formally and explicitly, or informally and implicitly) what risk they're willing to accept to proceed. What you're saying I think is that you should be informed enough to have an intelligent conversation with your attorney, and be able to make decisions on what risk they point out you're willing to take, and/or how you can mitigate it without just avoiding/shutting down?
njarboe 3y ago
I once heard that a good attorney figures out how to do what you want to do, a poor one tells you what you can't do.
adastra22 3y ago
> don't let your attorney make your business decisions, one of their jobs is to point out risks, one of your jobs (owner/ceo/leadership) is to figure out how to mitigate risk but that is not the same thing as avoiding all risks Man I wish the leadership team at the last startup I did understood that. They were too chickenshit to do anything their lawyer cautioned them against, and as a result we took no risks and got nowhere.

mysterydip 3y ago

I appreciate that. As someone with a hobby making software, I can see the need for hiring at some point but I don't even know where to start. Do you just look up one online and call and say "I got a nasty letter, will you be my attorney"? Is there some kind of ongoing subscription cost to keep being "my attorney" or just pay per hour when you have an issue?

chociej 3y ago
For small, transactional dealings where the amount of work is easy to predict, there may just be a fixed fee for that. For more open-ended work, it is often billed by the hour (time and expense). If the work is non-trivial, they may ask for a retainer, which is a down payment against future hourly work and expenses incurred by the firm. Another common billing model, called contingency, is generally reserved for cases where the firm is optimistic they will be able to receive a significant monetary judgment or settlement, which they will take part of for their time and effort.
hiddencost 3y ago
Getting connected to an attorney by someone you trust is the best path. Just picking one after googling is dangerous. Expect to pay more than you expect to pay. ETA: America is a "pay to play" country, and those payments are mediated by lawyers. What I mean is: enforcement of laws mostly happens via suing people, and you need to be able to pay an attorney to win that suit.
ncallaway 3y ago
I’d start by asking people around you if they know an attorney. Recommendations from people you know will almost always be more valuable than a Google search. If you don’t know anyone that would be in the area of law that you’re looking for, ask for _any_ attorney recommendations, then ask those attorneys for recommendations for people in the area of law you need. If you absolutely cannot find a lawyer through people you know (and, really, try asking people), then you can look up a lawyer referral service for your state. Most state or county bars will have some program for making referrals to lawyers. Often these will have a low-ish flat fee, which will get your a short initial consultation with a few lawyers in the relevant area of law. For billing, it’s something to ask your lawyer, thought most lawyers will have some kind of billing program where you pay hourly for what you use, and don’t need to pay some ongoing fee just to have the lawyer as “your lawyer”. Small business that only need a lawyer for a few hours a couple times a year aren’t uncommon clients for business lawyers.
- KieranMac 3y ago
  The problem with this advice is that this is a very niche area of law. Unless the people you know have had prior experiences with data-access/web-scraping legal issues, a generalist recommendation is very unlikely to be helpful here.
  - ncallaway 3y ago
    > If you don’t know anyone that would be in the area of law that you’re looking for, ask for _any_ attorney recommendations, then ask those attorneys for recommendations for people in the area of law you need. Attorneys know attorneys. I’d still recommend starting with your network, then asking those attorneys who they would recommend for the services you need. Or ask them if they know anyone that might be able to refer you.
    - KieranMac 3y ago
      There are probably two dozen specialists on this issue nationwide. A properly targeted Google search will outperform your personal network of attorneys (and their network of attorneys) 99.9% of the time.
JohnFen 3y ago
> I can see the need for hiring at some point but I don't even know where to start. I have advice for this. Most attorneys, at least in my area, will sit down and talk with you at no charge. My advice is to take advantage of this before you have an actual issue that needs attention and talk with a few of them. Investigate them, talk to their clients if you can, ask about them with professional organizations, etc. And then just use them for routine stuff every so often. Run contracts by them before you sign, etc. The idea is that you want to develop a relationship with them so that you and they know each other. Then, if something comes up where you really need an attorney, yours is already very familiar with you and what you're doing. > Is there some kind of ongoing subscription cost to keep being "my attorney" or just pay per hour when you have an issue? There is a concept of keeping an attorney "on retainer" -- which basically means prepaying for legal services. At a small scale, this isn't worth doing. Treat your attorney like your auto mechanic: keep a relationship going, go to them for your oil changes and other routine stuff, and pay by the hour. Then when you need important work done, they're primed and ready.
- KieranMac 3y ago
  This is all good advice.

chaps 3y ago

I often need legal support for things (CFAA threat every few years and litigation for FOIA work), and this list matches my experiences. A lot of the work is just building a relationship with an attorney or firm you can trust.

phasetransition 3y ago

As the (non lawyer) who fell into managing all US legal firm interactions for my day job, I support this list. If you are comfortable with legal documents; have a law dictionary to understand what specific language means; and read historical case law on the topic in question, you will be well prepared to have a seat at the table with your attorneys.

feoren 3y ago
> read historical case law on the topic in question Is this even at all accessible to anyone who isn't already in a major law firm? I'm assuming it requires some sort of thousand-dollar subscription to an exploitative publishing house?
- nl 3y ago
  > I'm assuming it requires some sort of thousand-dollar subscription to an exploitative publishing house? Assuming you are in the US, all case law is public domain (although documents used in cases aren't) https://guides.loc.gov/case-law/databases-online-resources https://guides.loc.gov/case-law/databases-online-resources
- bombcar 3y ago
  You just need a law library nearby. Most moderate-sized cities have them. If not, call the city or county clerk and ask, they often have access at the courthouse to PACER and friends.
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    Any big case you want to read about, and many more, will be on RECAP (pacer backwards). https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/ https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/ Put it in your deepweb toolbox. You can also get some free credit every quarter on PACER. With the recap extension, you can contribute that to RECAP automagically.

rendaw 3y ago

Okay, since you failed to avoid the snarky "hire an attorney" thing, I'm going to ask: how much would it reasonably cost to hire an attorney for advice on this? Assuming the contacting lawyer is on shaky ground. No "it depends" please, a ballpark. Maybe it's cheaper to have one on retainer. How much per month, if like a normal citizen your only daily legal risks are random megacorporations threatening you? Should everyone in the US have a lawyer on call? Should we consider it a normal tax for being a member of the US legal system? An insurance everyone signs up for like drivers insurance and life insurance? Is this only a concern for software developers?

coldpie 3y ago
> Should everyone in the US have a lawyer on call? I had a coworker at a previous job who often talked about "her family's attorney." I'm like, families have attorneys? I don't think I've talked to a lawyer once in my life.
- nick222226 3y ago
  I would guess later in life when your insurance agent or tax prep person find out you didn't fill out a will yet and introduces you or encourages you to have an attorney write one with you. Now your family has an attorney! That or going through a family estate.
- Culonavirus 3y ago
  A coworker's wife's friend is an attorney. So he's "his family's attorney" now, because of course he is. My landlord is a dentist, so he's my dentist now, because of course he is... That's how it mostly works... I guess :P
  - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
    The only time I've ever needed a lawyer was for a small side business I had at the time. One of our customers had an unpaid invoice that was past 90 days, and they were not responding to phone calls. Happily, my business partner's brother was a lawyer and she asked him to send out a dunning letter. We had the money within days :-)

hodgesrm 3y ago

> * get comfortable reading legal documents, this will allow you to have more intelligent conversations with your attorney Another tip. Hire an attorney who will teach you how to do this effectively. A simple rule of thumb is to consult with an attorney when you don't understand something. A good attorney will walk you through the issue, explain the possible ramifications, and (most importantly!) show you the standard response(s). Next time you can do it yourself. Also, you'll ask more focused questions the next time a novel issue pops up on that topic. That also saves money. In summary, think of your attorney as a mentor not a robot to provide legal advice.

NikolaNovak 3y ago

I feel in particular your second point is similar to a security officer. Their job is to identify risk and propose the safest approach. But in extreme, the safest approach is to shutdown and do nothing - the only truly unbreakable system. For any functioning system, ultimately a business owner will need to decide (formally and explicitly, or informally and implicitly) what risk they're willing to accept to proceed. What you're saying I think is that you should be informed enough to have an intelligent conversation with your attorney, and be able to make decisions on what risk they point out you're willing to take, and/or how you can mitigate it without just avoiding/shutting down?

njarboe 3y ago

I once heard that a good attorney figures out how to do what you want to do, a poor one tells you what you can't do.

adastra22 3y ago

> don't let your attorney make your business decisions, one of their jobs is to point out risks, one of your jobs (owner/ceo/leadership) is to figure out how to mitigate risk but that is not the same thing as avoiding all risks Man I wish the leadership team at the last startup I did understood that. They were too chickenshit to do anything their lawyer cautioned them against, and as a result we took no risks and got nowhere.