4 ms·

IMO traffic violations should be punished way, way, way more severely than they are. In the US, licenses do need to be easy to get otherwise you lock people out

IMO traffic violations should be punished way, way, way more severely than they are. In the US, licenses do need to be easy to get otherwise you lock people out of society (unfortunately), but they don't need to be easy to keep and you should drive with constant awareness that you will be taken to the cleaners for mishaps. Automated enforcement tech should be widespread and incur license revocations and salary/wealth-adjusted fines left and right.

jahewson 3y ago
License revocations are only effective for people who respect rules.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  There are tons of "minor" infractions committed by people who see themselves as perfectly responsible and law-abiding. And they are to the degree that they wouldn't drive without a license and would be legitimately deterred by that threat, but they just view various infractions as a normal part of driving (because they are, as our enforcement schemes make clear!)
- acdha 3y ago
  Or who fear consequences. That means enforcement has to be effective enough that people know there’s a high risk of consequences - for example, if driving on a suspended license means your car is sold at auction, people will care a lot more about following safety rules.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  Meh, having a suspended license doesn't actually stop you from being able to drive. Both physically you don't have to swipe in to drive but also legally you can still drive [1]. [1]: https://www.graciamintz.com/blog/2021/march/how-to-get-a-hardship-license-in-maryland-after-/ https://www.graciamintz.com/blog/2021/march/how-to-get-a-har...
giantg2 3y ago
"licenses do need to be easy to get" This is what allows the situation we have. People either don't get caught, or only get caught after injury has occurred. "traffic violations should be punished way, way, way more severely than they are." It depends on the infection. Many are already severe, such as being arrested for racing, going 25+ over the limit, DUI, etc. DUI is a factor in about a 3rd of fatalities and is already punished severely. Seems like the punishment focus isn't working. The preemptive education portion is more promising.
- acdha 3y ago
  If education worked, we wouldn’t see stats going up contrary to the rest of the world. The problem is that enforcement has declined radically and drivers have learned that there will be basically no consequences for anything short of a fatality and often even then it’ll be minimal. One of the big problems is that the early signals are ignored: the guy saying the dead pedestrian “jumped in front” of his truck now almost always has a history of things like speeding and signal tickets, parking violations, etc. but as long as that doesn’t interfere with their ability to drive, they’re just being trained not to treat it seriously. What I’d like to see is a progressive escalation of natural consequences: more than one speeding or light ticket in a year and you can’t keep your license without showing that your car has a speed/acceleration governor installed, more than a few in a year and your license is suspended for a month, etc. The focus should not be on money but reinforcing the idea that driving is dangerous and if you refuse to be safe you will lose that privilege.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    "If education worked, we wouldn’t see stats going up contrary to the rest of the world." This isn't really true. Most other developed nations have much stricter licensing with much lower fatality rates. Yes, enforcement is definitely an issue too. Progress penalties and fines tied to income levels (or vehicle values) would be a good start.
    - acdha 3y ago
      It is really true. There are various causes being debated but we’re the only rich country where the fatality rate is moving in the wrong direction: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2023/12/10/briefing/oakImage-1702214892119/oakImage-1702214892119-mobileMasterAt3x.png https://static01.nyt.com/images/2023/12/10/briefing/oakImage... The source article covers why some of the theories can’t explain the difference on their own: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/11/briefing/us-traffic-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/11/briefing/us-traffic-death...
ultrarunner 3y ago
> licenses do need to be easy to get Only if society continues to be centered around cars.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  Yep, but if we can change that then the problem as a whole gets mitigated quite a lot.
marcosdumay 3y ago
That won't get you anywhere. If you require cars, you'll get misbehaving cars, as they come in no other format. What fixes this is creating collective transportation. Multimodal and capillary transportation options that people can use. And after that, you just phase cars outside of the city.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  Obviously not true. There are gradations of strictness in driving behavior. Driving in Germany, for example, is a totally totally different experience from anywhere in the US.

jahewson 3y ago

License revocations are only effective for people who respect rules.

ethanbond 3y ago
There are tons of "minor" infractions committed by people who see themselves as perfectly responsible and law-abiding. And they are to the degree that they wouldn't drive without a license and would be legitimately deterred by that threat, but they just view various infractions as a normal part of driving (because they are, as our enforcement schemes make clear!)
acdha 3y ago
Or who fear consequences. That means enforcement has to be effective enough that people know there’s a high risk of consequences - for example, if driving on a suspended license means your car is sold at auction, people will care a lot more about following safety rules.
lesuorac 3y ago
Meh, having a suspended license doesn't actually stop you from being able to drive. Both physically you don't have to swipe in to drive but also legally you can still drive [1]. [1]: https://www.graciamintz.com/blog/2021/march/how-to-get-a-hardship-license-in-maryland-after-/ https://www.graciamintz.com/blog/2021/march/how-to-get-a-har...

giantg2 3y ago

"licenses do need to be easy to get" This is what allows the situation we have. People either don't get caught, or only get caught after injury has occurred. "traffic violations should be punished way, way, way more severely than they are." It depends on the infection. Many are already severe, such as being arrested for racing, going 25+ over the limit, DUI, etc. DUI is a factor in about a 3rd of fatalities and is already punished severely. Seems like the punishment focus isn't working. The preemptive education portion is more promising.

acdha 3y ago
If education worked, we wouldn’t see stats going up contrary to the rest of the world. The problem is that enforcement has declined radically and drivers have learned that there will be basically no consequences for anything short of a fatality and often even then it’ll be minimal. One of the big problems is that the early signals are ignored: the guy saying the dead pedestrian “jumped in front” of his truck now almost always has a history of things like speeding and signal tickets, parking violations, etc. but as long as that doesn’t interfere with their ability to drive, they’re just being trained not to treat it seriously. What I’d like to see is a progressive escalation of natural consequences: more than one speeding or light ticket in a year and you can’t keep your license without showing that your car has a speed/acceleration governor installed, more than a few in a year and your license is suspended for a month, etc. The focus should not be on money but reinforcing the idea that driving is dangerous and if you refuse to be safe you will lose that privilege.
- giantg2 3y ago
  "If education worked, we wouldn’t see stats going up contrary to the rest of the world." This isn't really true. Most other developed nations have much stricter licensing with much lower fatality rates. Yes, enforcement is definitely an issue too. Progress penalties and fines tied to income levels (or vehicle values) would be a good start.
  - acdha 3y ago
    It is really true. There are various causes being debated but we’re the only rich country where the fatality rate is moving in the wrong direction: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2023/12/10/briefing/oakImage-1702214892119/oakImage-1702214892119-mobileMasterAt3x.png https://static01.nyt.com/images/2023/12/10/briefing/oakImage... The source article covers why some of the theories can’t explain the difference on their own: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/11/briefing/us-traffic-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/11/briefing/us-traffic-death...

ultrarunner 3y ago

> licenses do need to be easy to get Only if society continues to be centered around cars.

ethanbond 3y ago
Yep, but if we can change that then the problem as a whole gets mitigated quite a lot.

marcosdumay 3y ago

That won't get you anywhere. If you require cars, you'll get misbehaving cars, as they come in no other format. What fixes this is creating collective transportation. Multimodal and capillary transportation options that people can use. And after that, you just phase cars outside of the city.

ethanbond 3y ago
Obviously not true. There are gradations of strictness in driving behavior. Driving in Germany, for example, is a totally totally different experience from anywhere in the US.