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Germany: Police seize bitcoins worth €2B
- dewey 3y agoThe project they were running was movie2k.to in case anyone is curious as it's not mentioned in the article.
- curiousgal 3y agoI always wondered what happened to that website. Good times!
- mrb 3y agoThis is correct. I also found some other articles do mention movie2k, eg.: https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/movie2k-to-beschuldigter-uebergibt-bitcoins-im-wert-von-zwei-milliarden-euro-ans-bundeskriminalamt-a-66a34b4a-a01b-4edf-b622-cdbff14596dd https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/movie2k-to-beschuldigter...
- lawlessone 3y agoFor those that don't read the article. They stopped in 2013, so it was worth a lot less than that back then.
- paulpauper 3y agonot smart enough to use cold storage either. probably had the private keys on desktop in plain text
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> cold storage This is the equivalent of 19th century criminals burying their cash. It’s fine. You just put the person in jail until they cooperate or die.
- neatze 3y agoin modern day, at least stories I heard, criminals will be placed in temp holding sell (worst places), once max time in temp jail is expiring (legally allowed), they just add new charges, so effectively, you will be held in worst jail cell possible for weeks if not months, this is how I understood from stories of multiple life time criminals with 10+ years in jail time served.
- earnesti 3y agoWat? They had cold storage, the cops just used a $5 wrench attack, kind of. Basically they stashed their profits from the operation to BTC, then just held it.
- paulpauper 3y agodo you think German police used 5$ wrench attack? this is not North Korea.
- baobabKoodaa 3y agoNot a literal wrench, but more like... persuasive talking, backed by credible threat of incarceration. The point of the "$5 wrench attack" is that it's not a cryptographic break.
- paulpauper 3y agoGermany has very lax sentencing. for $2 billion I would just do the time. I am still guessing it was unprotected file on desktop. Probably the criminals kept the only copy of keys on a thumb drive , which when confiscated meant they had no choice but to comply.
- progbits 3y agoYou think you can just get out of prison and use the money? They will be watching you and anything you buy with it or any cash you convert it to will be seized again. Might as well give it up for reduced sentence.
- wmf 3y agoObviously you'd want to leave the country and never return like Kim Dotcom or Mark Karpelès.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
- nash 3y agoThe way things are going with these seizures, soon governments are going to be largest holders of bitcoins. Good work on getting a currency without government control peeps!
- bondarchuk 3y agoIt would be rather strange to expect a mechanism that bars governments from holding bitcoins to be built into the protocol, and thus it is rather strange that you expect this to have ever been the intention.
- coldtea 3y agoWhatever the "intention" was, what the parent says was the second most advertised supposed feature of Bitcoin by crypto bros (second, as first was "getting rich quick").
- bondarchuk 3y agoSure, lack of government control is a main selling point, they just did not mean the term "control" in the way that both of you appear to be interpreting it.
- anonporridge 3y ago> The seizure came after the "accused voluntarily transferred" the bitcoins to an official wallet of the Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA), police added in a statement. Seizure is a technical word here, not what laypeople expect when they hear the word. But yes, governments are already very big holders. https://bitcointreasuries.net/?maximized=treemap https://bitcointreasuries.net/?maximized=treemap
- firmnoodle 3y agoThe US Government is already one of or the largest know holder of Bitcoin. And that is without the assumption that the US Government owns the Satoshi coins. It would be fine if governments decided they want to hold Bitcoin. I see no issues.
- trompetenaccoun 3y agoThe site contained no piracy, only links. If it was a "piracy website" why are German authorities not going after Google, Yandex & co? There was no law forbidding what they did at the time they ran the site, even if there have been law changes since. It's the PirateBay nonsense all over. In that case it was later discovered that one of the police officers investigating the site had previously worked for Warner Brothers before returning to the Swedish police.
- plumeria 3y ago> In that case it was later discovered that one of the police officers investigating the site had previously worked for Warner Brothers before returning to the Swedish police. Revolving doors [0], IMHO should not be permitted. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolving_door_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolving_door_(politics)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sph 3y agoRules for thee...
- lifestyleguru 3y agoThat's evil. Vicious copyright predators with lawful monopoly for violence and escalation. How worse it can turn?
- coldtea 3y agoA hell of a lot more. What you describe is the PG-13 version.
- lifestyleguru 3y agoCopyright police with armed units.
- jstrong 3y agoI don't think if I had $2 billion in proceeds from a piracy website I would choose to reside in Germany.
- paulpauper 3y agosure better than residing in the US which hands out huge sentences like Halloween candy .
- Bluecobra 3y agoVery true, the guy who hacked into Valve and leaked HL2 got 2 years probation in Germany. https://www.svg.com/899802/the-real-reason-valve-wanted-to-offer-this-hacker-a-job/ https://www.svg.com/899802/the-real-reason-valve-wanted-to-o...
- f1shy 3y agoThe only thing with you do not f*k around in Germany is taxes. For the rest, the fines and sentences are a joke.
- pimeys 3y agoThis one is also questionable in a country that allows you to buy a Porsche with cash, and which in general has its capital full cash only casinos and bars. But yes, if you play by the book, you definitely don't want to mess with the Finanzamt.
- sva_ 3y agoThere's a planned limit making sales above 10k Euro in cash illegal, afaik.
- lifestyleguru 3y ago> you definitely don't want to mess with the Finanzamt. *as a nonaffluent individual.
- joelthelion 3y agoThis could have a significant downward impact on bitcoin's market price. I imagine they will be sold fairly quickly.
- bogota 3y agoThe volume today is 22 billion. 2 billion in downwards pressure would lower the price but it’s really not a huge deal. Most deals like that are not done on the open market though.
- paulpauper 3y agoit is a lot but it would not be sold at once. probably sold in secondary/OTC market
- coffeebeqn 3y agoIf it’s sold at an auction or anything like that I don’t know how much arbitrage you can really get. Especially since there might be fees or taxes
- vkou 3y agoGovernments aren't fools, they generally don't just yolo a market sell order when liquidating seized financial instruments.
- wolverine876 3y agoThey may be sold to a financial institution at some discount on face value, which would then do the best they can with them.
- doener 3y agoPrevious discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39188364 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39188364
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- weinzierl 3y agoI only read the German news and there they make it sound as if it was handed over voluntarily. Now, what voluntarily means exactly when dealing with criminals and law enforcement is probably nuanced, but they definitely didn't say it was seized. Also, it was not the only transfer in connection with that site, only the latest and biggest, so the overall total is even higher.
- treffer 3y agoWell, "seize" = court order or a police action. If police shows up to seize something then you can either cooperate (hand it over voluntarily) or risk additional penalties (fines, prison time, ...). I read this story as "law enforcement was able to figure out that they have bitcoins, so they knocked on their door, and the criminals opted to hand it over instead of prison time". So yes, they transferred it, but I wouldn't call this voluntarily. It's just that the applied force is as visible as the seized bitcoins.
- dheera 3y ago"I lost the keys"
- codetrotter 3y agoBoating accident. We've all been there.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- imadierich 3y ago[dead]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- not_a_dane 3y agoGerman police want to scare bitcoin investors just before the halving event...
- sva_ 3y agoI was wondering why they would give up the 2B EUR, as the prison sentence here in Germany can't be that long afaik. But then imagined they could probably be extradited to the US for their 'crimes'. Not sure if that'd actually happen though... Germany refused extradition based on too low prison living standards before. Then again, if you can't leave Germany and have 2B EUR that would be seized if you try to use it, it is game-theoretically a loss as well. Maybe they saw a deal as their only possible restart in life.
- up2isomorphism 3y agoCrypto lost the anonymous value long time ago when against a state power. So the money are not really their to begin with, particular when it is 2B.
- sva_ 3y agoReally depends if the coins were really known/tainted. I'm sure you could find ways to mix it in intervals, in smaller amounts, that could allow you a luxurious life indefinitely. Although I have to admit I don't know how much harder it has become, as I exited crypto some 5 years ago.
- roenxi 3y agoBitcoin yes, Crypto no. Monero can still be anonymous in practice, for example.
- cycomanic 3y agoGermany forbids extradition of their citizens. So unless the suspects were not German extradition should not have been a fear.
- caseysoftware 3y ago"An investigation is still underway and no charges have yet been filed, police said." Whoa. > "The seizure came after the "accused voluntarily transferred" the bitcoins to an official wallet of the Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA), police added in a statement." What are the odds this was a trade - "give us the coins or we proceed/extradite you to somewhere else"?
- jandrese 3y agoFrom a service that was taken down in 2013? That's a hell of a long time to build a case.
- junto 3y agoIt’s a very weird case. They were sitting on this amount of money for over ten years and couldn’t spend it without leaving a paper trail, and Germans are pretty good at paper trails. It’s “taxes, taxes and taxes” rather than “death and taxes” here. Personally I would have hosted a German only reverse lottery, where the bitcoins would be divided up between every person that submitted their wallet address and proof of one entry per person with a German identity card. Boom, mass traction of bitcoin in Germany, and you’re god damn Robin Hood. No way the state is going to force millions of people to pay it back.
- junto 3y agoGerman nationals can’t be extradited to non-EU countries and if they would be, they still serve their sentence in Germany. Article 16(2) of the German Constitution, 2(3) AICCM Under the TCA, Germany has made the respective notification under article LAW.SURR.83(2)/article Law.Other. 134(1) (now articles 603, 690) that it will not surrender its own nationals. Accusation warrants: Germans can be extradited, but only to EU member states and only under the condition that after their conviction, they will be transferred back to Germany to serve the sentence there. Conviction warrants: German citizens can only be extradited if they consent (section 80, AICCM)
- medo-bear 3y ago[flagged]
- netman21 3y agoWhen are we going to stop calculating BTC total value by multiplying number of BTC times what is, let's face it, a spot price. There is no way you could sell 2 billion euros worth of BTC. You can't convert them into real property.
- huytersd 3y agoSure you can, you’ll have to do it slowly over years.
- mightybyte 3y agoA quick look at the 24-hour trading volumes of the top 10 crypto exchanges (only a single trading pair per exchange of BTC against a USD or equivalent) gives a total volume of ~3.8 billion dollars. Many people say that there is a lot of fake volume in crypto but this is still a pretty conservative number. The total BTC volume according to CoinMarketCap is about 23 billion, but I prefer the smaller number because it gives a much better picture of the volume that could be feasibly captured with pretty unremarkable exchange access. If we assume that one can capture 5% of this 24-hour volume (a reasonably conservative assumption given good enough trading infrastructure), it would take about 11 days to offload that amount of bitcoin by selling across the top 10 exchanges. So you absolutely could convert an amount like that into "real" assets. 11 days doesn't seem like an unreasonable amount of time to me, and we haven't even talked about OTC deals or other providers offering block trading services.
- thisgoesnowhere 3y agoYou think that there is the equivalent of 3.8b dollars of inflowing to Bitcoin specifically every day? The total amount individual traders put into stocks in the first week of the year is ~7b. Is Bitcoin actually > 3x higher than that? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-05/bofa-says-investors-rushing-to-cash-at-record-pace-in-first-week https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-05/bofa-says...
- nimchimpsky 3y ago
- apapapa 3y ago2 bits ?