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>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a l
by anon84873628 3y ago
>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then?
And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without.
The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.
- pgeorgi 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throwwar 3y ago[flagged]
- mderazon 3y agoThis is looking at the conflict from western eyes. Religious fundamentalists don't think like that
- nojvek 3y agoWe could have said this about Germany and Japan after WWII. Every human no matter their race and religion cares about having food, water, safety, opportunity, live in a law abiding society where their rights are respected and they get “some” choice to vote for their future.
- bitcurious 3y agoGermany and Japan were conquered and unconditionally surrendered, after massive civilian casualties. Nazis were tried and executed. If Israel is should model itself on those examples, it's doing the right and moral thing in waging war until Hamas is destroyed, or unconditionally surrenders.
- adhamsalama 3y agoEthnically cleansing a population is not right or moral in any case whatsoever.
- gafferongames 3y agoHamas's stated aim and goal is to destroy Israel and ethnically cleanse Palestine of the jews "from the river to the sea". When somebody tells you they want to destroy you, over and over for years, and then builds up terror factories and uses it to intentionally target women, children and elderly civilians on Oct 7, maybe -- just maybe, Israel has no choice other than to deal with Hamas as they are.
- falserum 3y agoIt’s their prime minister who has no choice. As soon as war ends, he is out. Oct events could have been prevented by military presence at the border.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago<< Israel has no choice other than to deal with Hamas as they are. Maybe. Recent drone strike in Lebanon suggests that Israel is rather capable to strike surgically if it is so desires. In Gaza, it does not appear to strike surgically suggesting it made that choice for a reason. There is always a choice and few would fault just plain self-defense. Based on the existing rubble, current situation is closer to overkill, which does not win Israel support. Something to consider.
- gafferongames 3y agoHamas are people who kidnap babies and hold them hostage. Something to consider.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- siliconwrath 3y agoGermany and Japan were occupied after WWII. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/united-states-occupying-germany-and-japan https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/united-states...
- wahnfrieden 3y agoTheir borders were restored.
- pgeorgi 3y agoIf Germany or Japan is your guideline here, maybe Israel should get a Bomber Harris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Harris#Second_World_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Harris#Second_World_War) or a Truman (see nuclear weapons dropped on Japan) on the scene? People are saying that what Israel is doing right now is a genocide. You have seen nothing yet: With either of them at the helm, there would either be an unconditional surrender by Hamas or no Palestinian alive anymore - and by November 15, last year. We don't do such things anymore, and for good reason, but that means that these past situations are unsuitable as example for the present.
- avmich 3y agoWhat Israel is doing right now should be viewed from the point of view of the goal of removing the Hamas threat as such. The logic here is "Hamas should go - what's the best way to make that happen?" and from this POV the situation is not too grim. It's obviously best to avoid casualties as much as possible, but we are far from perfect wars.
- 7402 3y agoI think the allies (largely the US) were able to effect massive cultural changes in Japan and Germany after WWII from aggressive, totalitarian, racist societies committed to military victory by any means necessary to relatively peaceful, even pacifist societies only via: 1) Forcing unconditional surrender on Germany and Japan, whereby virtually every citizen of those countries was convinced that they had lost the war and that resorting to armed struggle for their goals was a complete failure for Germany and Japan, and, 2) A lengthy occupation in those countries that accomplished many things, including the "de-nazification" of educational system.
- Ozzie_osman 3y agoThis only worked because enough was invested into the defeated countries for their populations to prosper. Case in point, after WW1, we got WW2. The prospects Palestinians are faced with, as proven by the West Bank, are very bleak, making any peace very very unstable.
- HDThoreaun 3y agoGermany and japan returned to their pre war borders after the war. Gaza does not have the land or resources to sustain its population. It literally needs to expand to have any amount of stability.
- avmich 3y agoI think the WWII example is really useful here - completion of hostilities and post-war work. Expansion of Gaza may be not necessary at all, looking at Singapore example, not to mention West Bank.
- HDThoreaun 3y agoIt is unimaginable to me for Gaza to ever resemble singapore. Singapore had massive advantages that took hundreds of years to create and its biggest continues to be its position along the straight of malacca. If singapore was not along the straight theres no doubt in my mind that it would be in a much much worse position today. Singapore actually has long standing hostilities with Malaysia. The only reason it exists today in its current form is the economic advantage given by its location.
- avmich 3y agoLack of imagination can prevent us from seeing solutions. Gaza certainly has advantages - location, population size and age, attention of the world in XXI century among them.
- southernplaces7 3y agoNo they didn't. Germany lost a large chunk of its eastern lands that was "given" to Poland (but in reality conytrolled by the Soviets) and Japan's large prewar empire in northern China and Korea (since the early 1930s) was taken away from the Japanese leaving them only the home islands. A bit of basic historical knowledge is good if one is going to argue. As for Gaza not being able to sustain its population, i'm doubtful. It's a tiny territory almost devoid of material/natural resources, but then there are many places and enclave countries in the world that are similar in size, heavily populated and with good standards of living. The reason why: They're not unremittingly belligerent with their neighbors, run by a government explicitly dedicated to the erasure of one of those neighbors, and overall allowed to exchange with the rest of the world fully. With that said, the hardline stance of Netenyahou and those who support him is doing little favors to Israel either, if a path to peace is what Israel wants.
- bart_spoon 3y agoGermany was reduced to rubble, their population submitted to complete and total surrender, and their leaders were all executed. Japan was firebombed into oblivion and then had two atomic bombs dropped on their civilian population. And both were then completely occupied and had their government dismantled and replaced by their conquerors. What Israel is doing right now seems to be far closer to what happened in Germany and Japan after WW2 than whatever diplomatic solution you are proposing.
- Ozzie_osman 3y agoAnd the world decided we didn't want to have wars like that ever again, and gave the defeated countries a path to prosper. Sadly, Palestinians have no such path.
- gafferongames 3y agoHamas has spent the aid and all their funds on funding terror. It's no wonder they have no path to prosper. Hamas made it this way.
- Ozzie_osman 3y agoThere's no Hamas in the West Bank and no path to prosper there.
- jdietrich 3y agoHamas are active in the West Bank and have significant support and influence. If an election were called (there hasn't been one for more than 18 years) it is overwhelmingly likely that Hamas would win. Fatah are somewhat less politically extreme than Hamas, but they are scarcely any less corrupt; within the West Bank, the PA is widely viewed as illegitimate. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/29/palestinian-authoritys-standing-slides-amid-growing-frustration https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/29/palestinian-authori...
- 3y ago
- vcryan 3y agoThe notion that the problem is religious fundamentalists is itself propaganda. The people are just people; the problem is a brutal racist occupation that has gone on for far too long.
- megaman821 3y agoWere they occupied or was it an open-air prison? Just throw everything out there and see what sticks.
- peterashford 3y agoThe West Bank and Gaza are two different locations. The West Bank is occupied and "open air prison" doesn't seem like a bad description of Gaza.
- weatherlite 3y agoYes people are just people and for some people religion is a big deal. It kinda defines their whole world.
- jdietrich 3y agoThe "people are just people" argument is rarely (if ever) applied to domestic politics. Democrats and Republicans may often loathe each other, but at least they have enough respect to recognise that their differences in opinion are meaningful and sincerely held. Many Palestinians are just ordinary people who want to get on with their lives, but some are fanatics. Unfortunately for everyone involved, it is the fanatics who are in charge. Of course, the same could be justifiably argued about the current Israeli government; the crucial difference is that Netanyahu and Smotrich can (and likely will) be removed at the next election. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Israeli_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_I...
- mderazon 3y agoIt's not propaganda. It's a dispute about land with each side not willing to give up land because it's a holy land that God bestowed upon them
- Aeolun 3y agoAnd yet, women in Afghanistan were happy going to university until we let the fundamentalists back in.
- sfifs 3y agoAll major conflicts and wars are fundamentally economic and have been so throughout history
- amscanne 3y agoSuch a statement seems, at best, a controversial view. For example, I’m pretty sure that the religious aspects of the crusades are generally accepted as the primary cause.
- tim333 3y agoI think the Gaza war doesn't fit you hypothesis for a start. The Gaza residents could have made it into another Dubai but they prefered to follow a route that resulted in the current situation.
- tstrimple 3y agoBecause Gaza is famously known for its oil wealth. Why pretend like completely different circumstances should lead to the same results?
- Ozzie_osman 3y agoWorth pointing out that both sides have extreme religious fundamentalists. Also worth pointing out that peace was achieved between Egypt/Israel but it took leaders like Carter, Sadat, Begin to transcend the conflict. Sadly, Biden is no Carter. And there are no Sadats or Begins anymore.
- avmich 3y agoAsk Carter what he thinks about that. I think he'd at least admit that Biden has a huge hindsight - the world today is so different from 1970-s.
- Ozzie_osman 3y agoCarter's approach tells us what he would think. Carter was willing to give the Israelis and the Egyptians massive amounts of aid, conditioned on peace. That is very different than offering one side unconditional support despite that side allowing extremists to formulate and shape plans.
- avmich 3y agoThat's rather similar to what we have or going to have. Both Israel and Gaza may receive - keep receiving - external aid. The difference is that peace around Gaza, today's and tomorrow's, is going to be enforced more elaborately.
- samirillian 3y agoI don't think it's too Western-centric to imagine that Palestinians want freedom, which is a universal human desire. Freedom means statehood and self-governance. Oppression is fertile soil for religious fundamentalists, and radicals of every stripe.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Freedom means statehood and self-governance That second bit is a magic variable.
- samirillian 3y agoI don't grasp the analogy
- xdennis 3y ago> And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society When Israel left Gaza in 2005 it had no blockade and an airport. Israel blockaded them and bombed their airport because they kept using everything to attack Israel. If Gaza and the West Bank were given complete independence with no interference, what makes you think it will turn out different and they won't use the open borders to bring in weapons to attack Israel?
- anon84873628 3y agoThat certainly will happen. It's part of the "despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without" aspect. Israelis need to be able to turn the other cheek in order to break the cycle of violence. I realize that this goes against human nature and may be impossible.
- reissbaker 3y agoThis is not the approach the West took with ISIS, which involved similarly one-sided fights against terrorist forces [1], nor do I think it's an approach that would have worked. When "everyone who wants peace" doesn't include the people in control of the guns and rockets, who instead want to kill their enemies by any means necessary (and themselves do not respect international law), you can't simply dialogue your way out of it any more than Ukraine could have dialogued their way out of getting invaded by Russia. The ICJ ruled that Hamas return the hostages unconditionally, but everyone knows that won't happen — Hamas is simply unaccountable. "Everyone who wants peace" can't even get the Red Cross access to the hostages, let alone get them returned. Vague calls for diplomacy with terrorist groups doesn't solve much, which is why people are asking you for specific solutions — it's easy to say Israel should stop fighting, but then: what should it do? How would you actually ensure it doesn't keep getting attacked, repeatedly, as Hamas continues to insist they plan to do? 1: Mosul alone had ~10,000 civilian casualties and that was less densely populated than Gaza City and didn't have tunnels: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/thousands-more-civilians-were-killed-in-mosul-battle-than-official-tally-ap-finds https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/thousands-more-civilia... And it similarly had about 1MM civilians displaced: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/06/world/middleeast/mosul-iraq-isis.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/06/world/middleeast/mosul-ir... And that wasn't the end of the fight against ISIS!
- amluto 3y agoA major problem is that the Gazan people have very legitimate problems with Israel, and this leads to a situation in which enough of them become militant to cause serious problems. Solving that seems like it needs a more wholistic approach than simply trying to get rid of the militants at the cost of causing everyone else to have an even bigger beef with Israel.
- reissbaker 3y agoSure, and the people of Iraq had very legitimate problems with NATO. Nonetheless the West dismantled ISIS. People can have legitimate grievances without committing mass murder and rape, and in fact I think the mass murder and rape committed by Hamas have been very counterproductive for the lives of Gazans. What would you have Israel do, that you think would result in it not getting continually attacked by Hamas? Recall that when Israel dismantled its Gazan settlements and withdrew its own citizens at gunpoint nearly 20 years ago — in the hope that would help solve the problem — that's when Hamas took power...
- refurb 3y ago[flagged]
- anon84873628 3y ago47% of Gaza's population is under the age of 18, meaning they have lived completely under the blockade and Hamas. Politically they only "want" what they have been indoctrinated to want. Give them school, art, romance, the option to travel the world, choose their career... and they probably won't care as much about their parent's grievances. Give them no such options and you are guaranteed to have more combatants. No one said it would be quick or easy. This will take multiple generations. It requires the Israelis to make a bet on the Palestinian youth.
- wernercd 3y agoDoesn't matter how much people who want peace invest when terrorists who want to continue fighting are in charge. There is no "modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society" when terrorists are in charge. They have had better options... and still choose the path they are on.
- bsaul 3y agoUnfortunately , pouring money in gaza while hamas is in power only funnels it to weapons and terror infrastructure. How do we know it ? We've been doing that for the past 15 years.
- rayiner 3y ago> And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society What makes you think that’s even possible? Name any other Arab country you could plunk down next to Israel that wouldn’t constantly be trying to destroy Israel?
- edanm 3y agoIsrael has had peace with Egypt and Jordan, for a long time now.
- ethics13 3y agoIt is an incredibly naive outlook as that has been in place since 2005 in Gaza.
- anon84873628 3y agoOnly for Israel to bomb it all away after one setback? What a waste. The Oct 7 attacks were horrible but the response was not proportionate or productive. Over 47% of Palestinians are under the age of 18, meaning they have grown up only knowing the post-2005 situation. Which can rightly be described as an open air prison with no hope of the opportunities all humans deserve. Israel - and the rest of the complicit world - allowed a generation of prisoners to be born under Hamas and is now massacring them like fish in a barrel. You can call that a naive view too, but I doubt history will look kindly on all the justifications.