6 ms·

Hopefully people are looking for productive ways to use intermittently free electricity.

by Symmetry 3y ago

NAHWheatCracker 3y ago
I guess it depends on your opinions of what's productive, but bitcoin mining is obvious.
- mschaef 3y ago
  Any large scale interruptible compute, for that matter.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    You would think so, but not really, because you still have to pay for the hardware but then you're only using it a small fraction of the time. Where it works well is in the opposite direction: You buy the hardware and use it 90%+ of the time but shut it down during a supply shortfall. Then you're making good use of the hardware and helping to amortize the cost of additional generation capacity but save the grid from running out of power in an emergency.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
RangerScience 3y ago
Was just thinking that! I know that, for example, Iceland does a lot of the world's aluminum smelting (ore gets shipped in from Australia, for example) b/c the cost of electricity is so low (all the geothermal). Edit: For socal, desalination seems like a good option. Also maybe something involving the recent updates to lithium mining in the Salton Sea...? No clue how much power that takes, and, it sounded like it was paired with geothermal plants, so...
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  iceland has so much electricity then run warmers under the roads to melt the snow
- Gibbon1 3y ago
  I've been firmly of the opinion that after a transition period the pricing structure is going to inverted and contain seasonal and episodic events. Long term I don't think this is a problem. Because customers will appear to utilize cheap/zero cost power. I also think a lot of 'baseload' customers are just chasing lowest cost. Those guys will happily shift their demand. And we're no longer looking at what you could believe 20 years ago, a world where energy costs on average 4-5 times more than it does today. Actually looks like energy will cost less. We definitely have issues around transition, utilities don't want to get caught out and go bankrupt.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Utilities have zero risk of bankruptcy from dropping prices. People need the power and pay the cost of transmission. The real problem they face is an inability to grow revenue with a cost+ model and dropping production costs. They have to be as inefficient as possible to drive up costs further, but this opens the door for competition that isn't playing this game. I think this decade will see many more municipalities getting into the game, and a huge regulatory fight as utilities try to stop them.
PartiallyTyped 3y ago
A sibling comment proposes cooling the houses to reduce demands later during the night.
teeray 3y ago
Carbon Capture?
- jondwillis 3y ago
  I don’t believe this is the best use of the periodic excess energy, given that you can prevent CO2 directly and not have to deal with as much inefficiency as recapture. Perhaps someday, though.
- gammarator 3y ago
  https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2022/02/03/terraform-industries-whitepaper/ https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2022/02/03/terraform-indu...
crote 3y ago
Obvious solution: incentivize people to charge their EV at work! I bet plenty of businesses would be more than willing to equip their parking lot with chargers given the right tax incentive. Have the electricity company give out charging cards so that EV charging can be combined with your residential power bill, and add a 5-9 Duck Curve Discount. Make the charging speed electricity company controlled for additional demand shifting possibilities.
- bagels 3y ago
  PGE has chosen another path: frequent blackouts and higher prices.
- Qwertious 3y ago
  You could also: incentivize e-mopeds and ebikes, both of which have far lower energy use than a car ever will. incentivize trains and buses, both of which have far lower energy use as long as they're even slightly filled (a 15-ton bus with only 7 passengers will still have better energy-efficiency than a 2-ton car). The latter might require building out more public transport in the first place, though.
  - crote 3y ago
    Of course, those would be far superior, but it'd require people to significantly change their habits. On the other hand, plenty of people already drive to work and park there. Plugging in your EV while parking at work vs. plugging in your EV while parking at home is an absolutely minuscule change for most people, which means it is quite likely to actually be picked up.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> intermittently free electricity Does California permit variable-cost electricity to consumers? If so, just charge a battery in the day and let it run at night.
- fragmede 3y ago
  It does. I pay $0.51/kwh at peak, and less off-peak.
  - jondwillis 3y ago
    I tried to convince my power company when moving back into CA to allow me to have time of use billing, but they required >x MWh over two(?) years of usage history “to make sure customers benefit from time of use billing” or some other red tape . I have off-grid solar generation for some types of appliances, and battery storage, so ToU would be economical for me, but I wasn’t permitted.
    - imtringued 3y ago
      They want to make sure you can afford the power bill and know what you are doing. The average household isn't structured around flexible pricing at all and your appliances are even less likely to support it.

Hopefully people are looking for productive ways to use intermittently free electricity.

NAHWheatCracker 3y ago

I guess it depends on your opinions of what's productive, but bitcoin mining is obvious.

mschaef 3y ago
Any large scale interruptible compute, for that matter.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  You would think so, but not really, because you still have to pay for the hardware but then you're only using it a small fraction of the time. Where it works well is in the opposite direction: You buy the hardware and use it 90%+ of the time but shut it down during a supply shortfall. Then you're making good use of the hardware and helping to amortize the cost of additional generation capacity but save the grid from running out of power in an emergency.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

RangerScience 3y ago

Was just thinking that! I know that, for example, Iceland does a lot of the world's aluminum smelting (ore gets shipped in from Australia, for example) b/c the cost of electricity is so low (all the geothermal). Edit: For socal, desalination seems like a good option. Also maybe something involving the recent updates to lithium mining in the Salton Sea...? No clue how much power that takes, and, it sounded like it was paired with geothermal plants, so...

spywaregorilla 3y ago
iceland has so much electricity then run warmers under the roads to melt the snow
Gibbon1 3y ago
I've been firmly of the opinion that after a transition period the pricing structure is going to inverted and contain seasonal and episodic events. Long term I don't think this is a problem. Because customers will appear to utilize cheap/zero cost power. I also think a lot of 'baseload' customers are just chasing lowest cost. Those guys will happily shift their demand. And we're no longer looking at what you could believe 20 years ago, a world where energy costs on average 4-5 times more than it does today. Actually looks like energy will cost less. We definitely have issues around transition, utilities don't want to get caught out and go bankrupt.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Utilities have zero risk of bankruptcy from dropping prices. People need the power and pay the cost of transmission. The real problem they face is an inability to grow revenue with a cost+ model and dropping production costs. They have to be as inefficient as possible to drive up costs further, but this opens the door for competition that isn't playing this game. I think this decade will see many more municipalities getting into the game, and a huge regulatory fight as utilities try to stop them.

PartiallyTyped 3y ago

A sibling comment proposes cooling the houses to reduce demands later during the night.

teeray 3y ago

Carbon Capture?

jondwillis 3y ago
I don’t believe this is the best use of the periodic excess energy, given that you can prevent CO2 directly and not have to deal with as much inefficiency as recapture. Perhaps someday, though.
gammarator 3y ago
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2022/02/03/terraform-industries-whitepaper/ https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2022/02/03/terraform-indu...

crote 3y ago

Obvious solution: incentivize people to charge their EV at work! I bet plenty of businesses would be more than willing to equip their parking lot with chargers given the right tax incentive. Have the electricity company give out charging cards so that EV charging can be combined with your residential power bill, and add a 5-9 Duck Curve Discount. Make the charging speed electricity company controlled for additional demand shifting possibilities.

bagels 3y ago
PGE has chosen another path: frequent blackouts and higher prices.
Qwertious 3y ago
You could also: incentivize e-mopeds and ebikes, both of which have far lower energy use than a car ever will. incentivize trains and buses, both of which have far lower energy use as long as they're even slightly filled (a 15-ton bus with only 7 passengers will still have better energy-efficiency than a 2-ton car). The latter might require building out more public transport in the first place, though.
- crote 3y ago
  Of course, those would be far superior, but it'd require people to significantly change their habits. On the other hand, plenty of people already drive to work and park there. Plugging in your EV while parking at work vs. plugging in your EV while parking at home is an absolutely minuscule change for most people, which means it is quite likely to actually be picked up.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> intermittently free electricity Does California permit variable-cost electricity to consumers? If so, just charge a battery in the day and let it run at night.

fragmede 3y ago
It does. I pay $0.51/kwh at peak, and less off-peak.
- jondwillis 3y ago
  I tried to convince my power company when moving back into CA to allow me to have time of use billing, but they required >x MWh over two(?) years of usage history “to make sure customers benefit from time of use billing” or some other red tape . I have off-grid solar generation for some types of appliances, and battery storage, so ToU would be economical for me, but I wasn’t permitted.
  - imtringued 3y ago
    They want to make sure you can afford the power bill and know what you are doing. The average household isn't structured around flexible pricing at all and your appliances are even less likely to support it.