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Framework Laptop 16 Review
- rebeccaboerio 3y ago[dead]
- Antoniaroberto 3y ago[dead]
- Antoniaroberto1 3y ago[dead]
- nrp 3y agoI'm happy to answer any questions folks have on this product.
- KingJulian 3y agoHello Nirav, When can we expect Framework to start accepting orders from India?
- subtra3t 3y agoI'm wondering the same thing. I don't imagine India to be a very big market though.
- ConceitedCode 3y agoIs an intel version of the 16 in the pipeline?
- seusscat 3y agoNo questions. But I just want to say congrats on getting another SKU out. I'm a very happy customer of an AMD FW13. The product has been pretty excellent and I absolutely love owning a notebook that I feel like I really "own".
- Name_Chawps 3y agoAre you planning to add blank keycaps or colemak/dvorak keycaps?
- nrp 3y agoWe currently have a blank keyboard module available in both ANSI and ISO! For other keyboard layouts like Dvorak, it is technically possible, but we don't have a timeline for it.
- alwayslikethis 3y agoOut of curiosity, do you really want colemak or dvorak keycaps? As a colemak user myself I found it useful to keep the qwerty keycaps in case I am dropped into an environment when the keyboard layout isn't behaving properly, since I no longer remember them perfectly. In all likelihood when using colemak/dvorak normally you aren't looking at the keycaps anyways.
- Floegipoky 3y agoI have a framework 13" and I replaced the keyboard with a black blanked keyboard. It was really easy to install, it took me ~15 minutes. I really like the look of it, and when I use it in public people think I'm a wizard.
- okasaki 3y agoAny plans for a keyboard with a trackpoint-like device? Is it possible to remove the trackpad?
- ctsdownloads 3y agoIn terms of can you remove the input kit (touchpad) itself, similar to what we see with the Framework Laptop 13, yes, it is removable. As is the keyboard.
- GenerWork 3y agoIs there any chance that the upgraded screen in this will be made available for the 13" laptop?
- mortallywounded 3y agoWhy do they continue to put a Windows icon on the super key? That alone would prevent me from buying it ;p
- nrp 3y agoWe actually do have an "English International - Linux" keyboard option that has a Super key instead.
- dabluecaboose 3y agoIs that option available for the 13? I've been looking and having trouble finding it.
- nrp 3y agoNot currently, but we are looking at the attach rate on Framework Laptop 16 to inform future Framework Laptop 13 keyboards.
- silon42 3y agoIs there an ISO variant of the above?
- ctsdownloads 3y agoWe do offer a proper Linux keyboard available in the marketplace. Image: https://static.frame.work/6jh6n0jcad25finrrmx9kmv48eex https://static.frame.work/6jh6n0jcad25finrrmx9kmv48eex This keyboard config uses the super key.
- cassepipe 3y agoOf all things this the most superficial thing I'd care about. I want sturdiness, correct performance, good repairability, great linux support. Tout le reste n'est que littérature. EDIT: Oh I missed the smiley at the end. So I think you were not too serious about this being a dealbreaker
- SushiHippie 3y agoAre there plans for USB4/thunderbolt on amd ryzen laptops?
- nrp 3y agoUSB4 support is present on the rear left and right Expansion Card slots on our Ryzen-powered Framework Laptop 13 and Framework Laptop 16.
- SushiHippie 3y agoAh perfect, the descriptipn of the usb-c expansion module confused me a little bit.
- user_7832 3y agoReviews seem to suggest that AMD has proper eGPU support too on those ports, fwiw
- candiddevmike 3y agoCan you convert an existing Framework laptop into a Framework 16 in an economical way? Based on the marketplace, it looks like it would be at least $750 for just the mainboard.
- nrp 3y agoThe Expansion Cards are cross-compatible (as are memory [if you have DDR5] and storage), but the other modules are unique to Framework Laptop 13 vs Framework Laptop 16. We did that to be able to fully optimize for each form factor.
- candiddevmike 3y agoHow many form factors are you planning on having?
- nrp 3y agoWe can't share anything about future product plans, but in general, as few as possible. We want to avoid splitting out into too many different ecosystems of parts, and instead maximize the size of the install base within a cross-compatible ecosystem.
- mft_ 3y agoIt's notable that a lot of 'smaller' laptops are coming along with ~14" now, rather than the 13" standard. I appreciate that the FW13 is really FW13.5, but if the next work you focus on (having launched the 16) is a FW14 or FW14.5, that would be lovely - especially if you took the opportunity to shave a few hundred grams off it as well!
- Steltek 3y agoI'm very against this trend. It's a bit like how compact cars have been slowly ruined by getting bigger and bigger. 13" is a great size for a truly portable use case.
- spuz 3y agoWhat are your thoughts on the large amount of keyboard flex in the 16" model as reported by LTT and specifically do you have any official recommendations for fixing it maybe something a little more robust than sticking a few thermal pads under the deck?
- nrp 3y agoWe saw the feedback and our mechanical team is digging into it.
- rglullis 3y agoNo questions. Just want to say that I am happy owner of a FW 13 and that my current tech-related dream now is to see the announcement of the framework smartphone. I bought the Fairphone 3 hoping they would keep an easy-to-upgrade form factor, but they completely failed on that front. I think you guys have what it takes to deliver.
- esskay 3y agoAre there any plans to offer larger batteries and/or improve battery efficiency? From what I've read battery life is still an issue many seem to be having. With the greatest respect it's 2024, a laptop should be capable of 8 hours at the very minimum for a mid range model but I'm seeing a lot of people getting sub 2 hours. The 16 ticks all the boxes for me but I've held off for now as having the possibility of worse battery life than my old 2015 mac isn't as you can imagine making for a compelling upgrade.
- nrp 3y agoFor reference, here is Notebookcheck's review stating 9 hours of real world battery life in web browsing (though on Windows): https://www.notebookcheck.net/Radeon-RX-7700S-performance-debut-Framework-Laptop-16-review.790807.0.html#toc-7:~:text=search-,Battery%20Life,-Small%20180%20W https://www.notebookcheck.net/Radeon-RX-7700S-performance-de... For Linux, when following our installation guides for power optimization, power consumption with integrated graphics should be similar. Edit: Tom's Hardware similarly reports 9 hours on Windows (with Graphics Module installed): https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/framework-laptop-16-review#:~:text=If%20you%27re%20comparing%20the%20Framework%20Laptop%2016%20to%20gaming%20laptops%2C%20it%20did%20a%20solid%20job%20on%20our%20battery%20test https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/framework-laptop-16-rev....
- oDot 3y agoCan you elaborate more about the tradeoffs here? I'm in the same boat, looking for as light as possible with a much battery as possible, was banking on the 16 yet we get 9 hours instead of (an assumed) ~10-11, and 2.1/2.4kg. Somehow the Thinkpad Extreme X1 and the new Zephyrus G16 have similar CPUs, dGPUs, a >90Whr battery and they weigh less than 2kg. Where's most the weight going? Will I be able to buy a FW 16 and eliminate weight to achieve similar specs? Literally asking about using a "stripped down version".
- theossuary 3y agoFrankly that weight is from the modularity of the system. To build something repairable/modular requires scaffolding this isn't necessary if you solder and glue everything together; that's why companies like Apple do it. You are giving up some things in order to get the promised repairability of a framework. If you want the lightest laptop with the longest battery life, you'd get a Mac. If you want the best bang for your buck go with a basic Ultrabook. If your willing to have a bit more weight, size and a bit less battery in exchange for repairability/customization, that's the niche framework fits well.
- natrys 3y agoAny chance we can get Japanese keyboard? You asked for feedback on it a while ago: https://community.frame.work/t/request-review-of-korean-belgian-japanese-and-latin-american-keyboards/18997 https://community.frame.work/t/request-review-of-korean-belg... (am not even Japanese, just have bad habit of using thumb clusters a lot, and this is the only layout with small space bar)
- nrp 3y agoThe keyboards we requested artwork feedback on are all ones that we're working with our keyboard supplier on, but we don't have specific availability timelines that we can share. We certainly make sure to have the main keyboards for a country available before we launch there, but we've also in many instances launched a keyboard language far ahead of time.
- csdvrx 3y ago> (am not even Japanese, just have bad habit of using thumb clusters a lot, and this is the only layout with small space bar) Same, the 106/109 keys JP layout is wonderful! I use the Ro key as a quick desktop toggle (right next to PageUp on my Thinkpad keyboard) and the Yen key as a full-word erase (like Ctrl-W on bash) The extra left and right thumbs are also extrely helpful to have Home and End in an easy-to reach position.
- m463 3y agothese are interesting hacks, glad you let people know about this possibility.
- csdvrx 3y agoIt is a very nice keyboard layout. I'm very happy I discovered it (even if it was by mistake!) Another example I can think about: remap the Ro key to toggle between international layout while it's pressed, so you can switch between layouts with a key right next to the shift key. For example, on a US/RU settting, press Ro while pressing the 6 keys to the right of Tab in a sequence and you would get ЙЦУКЕН, don't press Ro and do the same: you would get QWERTY. Mixing and matching in both upper and lowercase would be very easy.
- agrama 3y agoAny plans to offer a touch screen?
- jckahn 3y agoHello! I’m in FW16 batch 4 and excited to support your product and company. Thanks for driving innovation in this space! I’m holding out for an NVIDIA GPU, or at least some hardware to accelerate running local AI models. Do you have any expansion bay plans for that?
- kinow 3y agoYeah, me too, waiting for an NVIDIA GPU for Blender (AMD and Intel GPUs perform really badly with Blender)
- alwayslikethis 3y agoHi - Linux still has spotty fractional scaling support. It would be nice to have a display option that is either usable without fractional scaling (1920x1200) or one that works with 2x scaling (3840x2400).
- tristan957 3y agoLinux support will definitely get better within the next year, but yeah this is my biggest pain point. Electron and other XWayland apps look terrible. Is there some environment variable that I can set to launch Electron apps with the correct command line arguments for Wayland? Edit: Looks like I found what I am looking for: https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/api/environment-variables#electron_ozone_platform_hint-linux https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/api/environment-varia.... Electron apps are still blurry though. Hmm... Also, seems like I need to expose something to Electron apps that are packaged in Flatpak. Needs more research.
- alwayslikethis 3y agoUse a better DE. KDE allows not scaling xwayland apps, and Hyprland does too. Just set Xft.dpi to let it scale the old fashioned way. Electron can be started with wayland but it's often buggy.
- tristan957 3y agoGNOME meets all my needs except this one, so I think I will stay here. Definitely looking for a less drastic solution.
- vetinari 3y agoMany electron apps either ignore the ozone flags, or straight up ship with ancient electron, that doesn't support ozone/wayland at all. The only way forward is bug the maintainers of the apps to do the right thing and support wayland properly. Electron itself does.
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- sourcegrift 3y agoAre you collaborating with others or assisting others in similar projects in other fields? I've been thinking how rapidly india is industrializing and the middle class is getting rich and considering the difference in my electricity bills in winters and summers ($7, 55 kwh vs $80, 640kwh ), I was hoping there were air conditioners which were more open and user accessible. The goal here might not be preventing wastage of ACs but of having only one AC that could power multiple rooms non concurrently thus minimizing energy waste.
- chris-orgmenta 3y agoHi there, Do you think that you will move from batches to continuous production the next few years (I understand this is difficult logistics)? If Frameworks were available with 3 day shipping, then I would be able to recommend them to people more successfully. Also out of interest, do you mind sharing your stance (and estimates for current and future demand) for touchscreens? Presumably you're estimating low demand for this at moment since it's not a priority. Would be great to see stats on this (since at the moment it's mostly just informal discussion / passing comments in the community/forums) Thanks in advance. Appreciate everything you've all done.
- nrp 3y agoWe're in stock on both Intel and AMD Framework Laptop 13 configurations, and they ship from inventory within a week. We start out each new product under a pre-order system, but then move into normal production and ordering once we fulfill all pre-orders.
- chris-orgmenta 3y agoOK great, thanks And appreciate that any expectations for <1week delivery would ignore your JIT/ondemand style assembly
- biehl 3y agoAre you considering some quiet NUC-type machines? I have a very nice Starlabs Byte v1, but even more competition for the Mac Mini would be great.
- nrp 3y agoWe can't share anything about future product plans, but you can re-purpose a Framework Laptop 13 Mainboard to be a small form factor computer: https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/cases/mainboard-case/framework/ https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/cases/mainboard-case/fr...
- biehl 3y agoYes. That mainboard repurpose is awesome! A dedicated mini can probably have better/quieter cooling. Fingers crossed.
- teslabox 3y agoThis case is available from Framework directly for $39: https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case-and-mainboard-kit https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case-and... Q: the pictures of this case on the CoolerMaster site looks like there's a USB-C trigger to a Coaxial power connector, then another connector to the mainboard itself. Would this case work with a 20v coaxial power supply? Q: What voltage/wattage does the Framework SFF computer need to power up? A lot of the USB-PD power supplies only give watts, not the voltage provided. Your 60w power supply is probably either 12v/5A or 20v/3A, but the page itself doesn't say: https://frame.work/products/power-adapter https://frame.work/products/power-adapter I have some 15w USB-C 5v/3A power supplies (that won't charge my Sony camera), a USB-PD battery that supposedly puts out 12v on the one USB-C port, and an Apple 30w USB-C ac adapter. My 2016 macbook charges on 5v, which is convenient. Framework forum posts indicate the laptops will charge on 5v 12v and 20v, but there was a problem with 15v.
- atribecalledqst 3y agoI have a Framework 16 pre-ordered for batch 11 -- is there a rough estimate of when it might ship? Promising I won't send you a nastygram either if that estimate doesn't hold :) I didn't keep track of Framework 13s at all so I'm not sure what their shipping cadence was for pre-orders (just for comparison's sake)
- nrp 3y agoFor Batch 11 (and all of the later current batches), we expect to fulfill them before the end of Q2.
- depressedpanda 3y agoWhen will it be available in Sweden? I followed the prompt on the website and signed up for the newsletter, but I got so much marketing spam that was totally irrelevant to my one and only question that I had to unsubscribe.
- theshrike79 3y agoSame question but for Finland. I’ve got the money here, had it for at least two years. I just don’t have a way to give it to Framework
- finnjohnsen2 3y agoSame question, same frustration, from Norway
- lousken 3y agorest of the EU is supported via reshipping https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/eu-unsupported-SJByUb7a https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/eu-unsupported-SJByUb...
- theshrike79 3y ago"Supported" is a stretch. > All warranty service will require a shipping address within one of the EU countries we ship to. So if I need to warranty something, I need to figure out how to have a shipping address in, say, Germany? Easy! Oh and if the 2.5k€ laptop gets damaged by a 3rd party shipping company, I'm on the hook for it. Yea, I'll wait. I can't figure out why it's so hard to ship stuff within the EU. The whole purpose of the European Union is to make moving products easy inside its borders.
- KomoD 3y ago> I can't figure out why it's so hard to ship stuff within the EU it's not, at least not in my experience.
- snvzz 3y agoShipping to Japan anytime soon?
- nekoeth0 3y agoAny plans of doing OLED displays? It's the only reason why I got my XPS13; but if given the choice, I'd have jumped immediately to the F13 OLED.
- m463 3y agoIs OLED really that interesting? I've watched OLED tv's and in rooms with any sunlight the dark parts become unusable. I've also seen reviews for OLED computer monitors, where people are annoyed that the screen will auto-dim at inopportune times.
- jseliger 3y agoIs OLED really that interesting I'd say "good" rather than "interesting" and yes, it is, particularly for anyone who likes dark mode.
- lawn 3y agoBeen patiently waiting here in Sweden to be able to order one. You got an AMD option now, this is the last hurdle. (An ergonomic and programmable keyboard ia a dream. Maybe I could mod it myself.)
- pkphilip 3y agoAny plans to ship to India?
- sillystuff 3y agoDo the AMD based Framework laptops support proper suspend to ram?
- progval 3y agoOfficially, the 13" AMD does: https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/19bf3ki/linux_suspend_and_amd_reminder/ https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/19bf3ki/linux_su...
- rathboma 3y agoNo. It supports s0 sleep, not s3. It's my biggest problem with mine. I lose about 1% per hour.
- ParetoOptimal 3y agoAnyone know why it doesn't support s3 sleep?
- sciclaw 3y agoWill there be a way to sell old parts back to Framework as we start upgrading computers?
- belthesar 3y agoI'm not a part of Framework, but I imagine they're less interested in becoming their own secondary market.
- lousken 3y agoany plans for upgrades not just for the webcam and mic but also the speakers (though side instead of down maybe problematic)? since they did not get much praise from LTT
- spartanatreyu 3y agoWebcams and mics will always be shitty on a laptop. But speakers should be an area of focus.
- metalforever 3y agoYou really need to deal with the coreboot / firmware issue.
- user_7832 3y agoYou had made a statement of not having the 8000 series AMD chips as it's not really a new "version", however for Intel is there any comment for Meteor Lake or is that a "we can't discuss future plans"? ;) (I'm curious to know but I think I'll be getting the AMD 13 anyway, upgrading from a dualcore skylake laptop should still be nice :)
- itronitron 3y agoAny plans by you, or others, to make an extra rugged case (and hinge) for the laptop?
- aidenn0 3y agoCan you send someone to my house to hit my current laptop with a baseball bat so I can justify an upgrade?
- tdrz 3y agoWhat are the noise levels vs load?
- 6figurelenins 3y agoThe fan at full load (i5-1240P) is noticeable, but not obtrusive or unpleasant. My noise floor is a Be Quiet! desktop case. In a normal workday, I don't hear it.
- rmbyrro 3y agoDoes hibernation work on Linux?
- caskstrength 3y agoAny plans for UHD display and a good keyboard?
- smcleod 3y agoWhen is a 4k version available?
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 3y agoHow's out-of-the-box support for multi-monitor setups with Ubuntu? How about supporting higher refresh rate external monitors? How does the trackpad feel compared to what people are used to with Apple devices on MacOS, is it at all comparable? I remember that being my least favorite part of using Linux laptops like what System 76 would put out. How's the device build? Plasticky? Flexing? Once again, I dreaded that about the System76 machines, which IIRC are just rebranded Clevos/Compals.
- judge2020 3y ago> How's the device build? Plasticky? Flexing? From the LTT review (note that Linus has personally invested in the company, but says he did not review the team's script) at timestamp[0]: > The keyboard on the Framework 16 is unacceptable at this price [...] wasn't able to get up to my full typing speed in particular while doing really quick double presses due to the chassis flex, a huge disappointment compared to the keyboard on the Framework 13 > The problem is the midplate [..] with the keyboard off, you can just see how not supportive this super thin piece of metal is. Fortunately, this being a framework, disassembling only takes about a minute and we were able to chuck some thermal pads in the areas where it was squishiest, and.. holy crap, that is so much better. > The amount that the chassis flex influences the feel of the keyboard is huge and the difference that this mod has made is night and day. With the thermal pads in there, this keyboard isn't quite on the same level of Asus or Alienware but comfortably beats MSI and Razor and bring it much more in-line with the price. 0: https://youtu.be/eUCm4wKarpQ?t=204 https://youtu.be/eUCm4wKarpQ?t=204
- ssivark 3y agoWhat would it take to let people make custom keyboards layouts for the laptop? (Given some fixed surface area on the board)
- whitesnowy 3y agoWill there eventually be a 15" model in your product roadmap? 15" sits nicely between your 13" and 16" models, and provides a good balance between screen real estate, number of ports and portability. Personally I find a 13" to be slightly on the smaller side, whilst the 16" is too large for me. I am quite sure many people are looking forward to a FW 15" with AMD Ryzen. Thank you for considering this.
- rangestransform 3y agowhy is a flimsy piece of sheet metal behind the keyboard, and the resulting keyboard deck flex, even close to acceptable on a machine that competes in the MBP16 price range?
- justaj 3y agoAre there any plans to add ECC support (in the future) ?
- schmorptron 3y agoGonna be interesting to see if the community effort to get an oculink port goes anywhere, would make using it with an eGPU much more viable. Regardless, it sounds pretty great from this review and the upgradable backslot is a massive achievement.
- nrp 3y agoWe certainly hope so! We handed some early adapter boards to the community members who were working on it, so we hope that they'll be able to show some initial prototypes quickly.
- navaati 3y agoWhat’s the advantage of Oculink over regular Thunderbolt/USB4 for eGPU ?
- nrp 3y agoReduced protocol overhead allowing for greater throughput. It is native PCIe.
- p_l 3y agoEssentially instead of running a not so trivial stack on both ends to handle USB4/TB4 virtual channel system over which you then tunnel PCIE L2 packets, it's straightforward, unmodified, PCIE connection with at most retimers/signal conditioners on both ends. OTOH, it's only PCIE signal.
- RomanPushkin 3y agoI wish they deliver good keyboard as well, like Thinkpads X201 or similar have. I am happy owner of modded X201 with updated screen, motherboard, and so on. It's not on a cheap side, but I'm happy to pay that price _only_ for the keyboard option. It's so cool. Folks back then knew what was important.
- pachico 3y agoI personally never experienced a keyboard as comfortable as my fw13. I am coming from XPS ones and never tried ThinkPads, thought.
- Hamuko 3y agoThe LTT video says that the 16-inch Framework has a much worse keyboard than the 13-inch one.
- nrp 3y agoThe physical key mechanism is the same as on the Framework Laptop 13 (the same tooling too). The LTT video noted that they found flex in the mid plate that the keyboard rests on, which we are investigating.
- happymellon 3y agoDo you know what is the travel on the 13 and 16 Framework keyboards?
- nrp 3y ago1.5mm key travel.
- redeeman 3y ago[flagged]
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- pachico 3y agoI am really happy with my fw13. I love everything of it. I even made the simulation of upgrading to 64gb of ram just after I bought it to prove myself that it was the right choice. I cannot think of going back to buying something I know I'll most likely have to replace entirely after some time because it cannot be upgraded.
- cassepipe 3y agoReally happy too after running Fedora for about a year now on the 12th gen. I had doubts about the 3:2 screen ratio but although it was unfamiliar at first I quickly realized that the extra vertical space for a 13' computer !
- gregwtmtno 3y agoJust wanted to chime in that I love my Framework 13 as well. It's been running great on Ubuntu for well over a year now--no complaints.
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- ornel 3y agoExtremely happy as well. I did put 64gb on it and use it all day for GIS and design on Ubuntu, plugged to a Dell dock and two 4k monitors for a triple head set up
- davewood 3y agohow long will it run on battery? my FW13 12th gen (debian) lasts maybe 2 hours and even in suspend mode it drains way to fast (/sys/power/mem_sleep = deep)
- motiejus 3y agoYou are not alone with both issues. Framework12, i5, NixOS. My milleage is 2.5~3h, but usage is light (vim mainly, often not even a browser). I spent quite some time trying different things to optimize it, but never got more than realistic 3 hours. Happy with other aspects though.
- whalesalad 3y agoMy M2 air will outlast the workday. Obscene battery life. I can’t imagine using a Linux notebook after this level of performance.
- smoldesu 3y agoAs long as you don't use Docker. My last job gave me an M1 Air for container debugging and devops, and it was a comically bad fit for the task. I ended up going back to my cheap x86 Linux host for most of the dirty work, just because it ran cooler. Now, if someone could find me a native Docker host that lasts all day... then we're in business.
- whalesalad 3y agoI run all the heavy stuff on a remote dev node. My laptop is just vscode+ssh, tmux in iTerm, a browser, Spotify and slack.
- smoldesu 3y agoThe wave of the future! Half the people in my team did that, I didn't feel right about the EC2 costs. To each their own, I guess.
- darthrupert 3y agoAfter a year of waiting them to start shipping to where I live, I gave up and ordered a new Lenovo.
- blindfolded_go 3y agoSame. After wanting a Framework 13 for years, I am now going to wait for a Snapdragon Elite X Lenovo instead.
- darthrupert 3y agoThat looks very promising, but I'm not brave enough to jump into ARM land yet. Perhaps in the next cycle.
- bityard 3y agoNote that if you want a Framework laptop and order it today, it won't ship to you until between early April or late June. If you need a laptop now, you are better off getting a higher-end business-class laptop from Dell or Lenovo. (And probably a lot better price too.)
- nrp 3y agoNote that that only applies to Framework Laptop 16, which we've seen massive pre-order demand on. Both the Intel and AMD Framework Laptop 13 models ship within a week from inventory.
- high_priest 3y agoOr pay the scalper tax, buying second hand.
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- einpoklum 3y agoIt's useless with this near-zero-height keyboard. Instead of offering us a usable keyboard, they put in RGB lighting. Unless they offer something we can press with decent key travel - and I mean no less than 2.5 mm - I'm not buying. (For those who don't know what I mean: https://www.pcworld.com/article/557179/full-travel-keyboard-vs-low-travel-whats-the-difference.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/557179/full-travel-keyboard-... )
- lousken 3y agomy thinkpad keyboard from 2014 definitely has <2mm key travel and it feels amazing, in fact is the best keyboard for typing that I own and yes, I do say that even though I also have a keychron keyboard for my desktop
- einpoklum 3y ago> and it feels amazing If you used the ones from 2012 and earlier, you would find the 2014 laptop keyboard only passable...
- lousken 3y agoI did use older keyboards like the one on the x220 as well and while the feeling was a little bit better, I just can't use a keyboard without a numpad (reason I am not using 14 or 13 inch laptops) and I also think the keycaps on the newer model are superior
- bityard 3y agoPhoronix do a good job with benchmarks, but their reviews typically stop there. There is another review from Verge that goes a lot more into daily use concerns and build quality: https://www.theverge.com/24047424/framework-laptop-16-review https://www.theverge.com/24047424/framework-laptop-16-review
- ghostpepper 3y agoPretty striking how different these two reviews are.
- Ulysseswho1 3y agoFramework has said that certain reviewers (such as the verge) got earlier samples which had more problems, such as keyboard flex or higher than expected heat/fan noise. They have said that many of these hardware issues are not present with mass production units, and as for the software they are still updating firmware/drivers.
- ziml77 3y agoI'm looking forward to mine (batch 13, no clue how long that means I'll be waiting) but I'm a bit disappointed in it based on LTT's review. Needs to be modded with some thermal pads behind the keyboard to cut down on flex. And somehow the screen on their unit is partially obscured by the bezel and has obvious uniformity issues. For the price I expect better and the only reason I'm still going through with the purchase is because I really love the idea of a properly modular laptop. I've been hoping for their success since I first heard of them and I continue to hope they grow and improve.
- Ulysseswho1 3y agoBased on some of the reviews and FW's own comments, the keyboard flex is certainly not universal as FW didn't even seem to know about the issue prior,, and iirc same for the screen issue. Even if these problems are still present for mass production (which i find unlikely but it is possible), by the time you or i (batch 7) get ours, it should be fixed. Also, based on some of nrp's comments elsewhere in this thread (and a pinch of guesswork), it looks like batches 11+ are looking at sometime between April and June.
- thenobsta 3y agoI'll chime in and say that I love my FW13. It's a great machine. I got the DIY kit and had my 7yo put it together. It was straightforward with a little help from dad (even installing Ubuntu!). Now we fight over who gets to use it.
- nrp 3y agoIt's awesome to hear that. A big part of creating Framework was the urge to prevent a world where kids could no longer tinker with their parents' computers.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoThat's wonderful to hear. I attribute my innate love of computers to my father making a mess of the kitchen table while working on the family PC.
- thenobsta 3y agoLove it. I'm excited to upgrade the mainboard and to put the old board in a new shell or the cooler master case. We'll see what the kiddo wants to do. Maybe she'll become a gamer and we'll get a 16. Anyway, you've got my total support and $. I get that we're a niche market though. It would be great to see my non-techie friends sporting the Framework Gear -- I think they'd love the pre-built machine, but the messaging steers them to thinking it's only for DIY-ers. E.g. -- My sister would love the FW13 because she doesn't have special performance needs and cares about sustainability, but she got very intimidated buying an MBA, so guiding her through buying a Framework will be some work on my end (...messaging that would land for her would be that Framework solves all your basic problems (browsing, video-chatting, and netflix) and when you need more power you can upgrade for only the cost of the components).
- ornornor 3y agoAny chance you’ll ship to Switzerland soon? Our only options are to ship it to Germany or France, go pick it up, pay import fees and taxes on top of the country’s 20% VAT, and then be denied warranty because delivering to a pick up address voids the warranty. It’s quite frustrating :/
- lwhsiao 3y agoLTT released a video that shows battery life benchmarks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUCm4wKarpQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUCm4wKarpQ
- verdverm 3y agoI thought my framework was great at two weeks, it was around 2 months that my mind started changing, and at 10 months that I replaced it with a mac
- lousken 3y agowithout a particular reason(s), that is a useless comment
- verdverm 3y agolow quality craftsmanship, small things like hinges, sliders, and the extensions don't fit well bad thermals, the thing always ran hot playing just a single video, the fan was almost always on
- moribvndvs 3y agoAfter trying to replace the battery in a 2014 MacBook Pro, doing a repair in a 2020 MBP, and my experience (performance aside) with an M3, I wish I could buy your framework (alas, iOS development).
- verdverm 3y agoI bought an M2 air and it never gets warm. I can do so much more with it and it doesn't flinch You can buy my framework, but you will not like how easily and loudly the fan comes on
- Ulysseswho1 3y agoDid you get one of the Intel Mainboards or AMD? Im not trying to tell you that you are wrong or invalid or anything like that, just wondering.
- verdverm 3y agoIntel, i7, 12 gen, iirc I'll look it up and edit in a bit
- toastercat 3y agoI'm really interested in getting a Framework to run as my Linux laptop. Does anyone have experience using GNOME on their Framework (preferably AMD)? How is the heat dissipation and battery life? My main issue with most laptops is how they get uncomfortably hot after a while. That and also bad trackpads.
- willmorrison 3y agoI'm running gnome in fedora silverblue on an Intel 13" Framework and I only get ~6 hours of battery life doing web browsing, school work, light programming, and watching videos.
- anonporridge 3y agoI wanted to love Framework, but it just doesn't compete at all with my X1 Carbon. Then again, I've failed to find any laptop that I like more than the X1 Carbon. It's damn near perfect.
- binkHN 3y agoLove the X1C, would love it more if it wasn't Intel-only.
- cmrdporcupine 3y agoBe careful what you wish for. I went with an Ryzen thinkpad last year (Z16 Gen 1) and it's been a big headache. Only after about a year did software (BIOS mainly) support settle into something not scary flaky. Things like external USB displays completely breaking for a couple months. Fan control breaking. Power mgmt in general not great. I am fairly certain an Intel system would have had less drama.
- paxys 3y agoIt absolutely competes if you value upgradability. The two are about the same price for similar specs, but the moment you buy the X1 the clock starts ticking. Heck even the RAM in it is soldered to the motherboard these days.
- cempaka 3y agoOxide & Friends has a good episode with Framework's founder: https://oxide.computer/podcasts/oxide-and-friends/1632642 https://oxide.computer/podcasts/oxide-and-friends/1632642
- nfriedly 3y agoOne more person chiming in to say that I'm really happy with my 13" AMD Framework laptop. It wakes from sleep and reconnects wifi before I'm done opening the lid, I can charge it from either side, the screen is beautiful, it's nice and lightweight, the performance and battery life are good enough that I don't think about it. On the down side, the touchpad is a notable downgrade from the macbook I use for work, and the speakers are down-ish-firing and fairly weak. Also, twice in the ~1.5 months I've had it, it has completely frozen for about 30 seconds (even the mouse cursor didn't respond) before hitting a windows bluescreen and then rebooting. No idea what's causing that, but there is some suggestion on the forum that it's the AMD graphics drivers. However, I also have a GPD Win Mini with a similar APU and it's never once frozen like that on me. I'm probably going to switch it to Ubuntu in the near future, so that might sidestep the freezing issue, although I expect it to eventually be sorted out either way. But, again, overall I'm very happy with it.
- dheera 3y ago> It wakes from sleep and reconnects wifi before I'm done opening the lid My experience was this is only true for "s2idle" suspend but that mode causes battery drain of 30% every 8 hours which was way more than I was willing to tolerate. It's okay I guess if you're just commuting and unplugging-plugging or something. But it didn't work for me for leisure travel when I would often go 24 hours without opening my laptop. In "deep" sleep mode (which only works with some SSDs) power drain is minimal but it takes upwards of 15 seconds to resume and reconnect to wifi. This is what I use now. I just tolerate the 15 seconds, but I wish it were as fast as a Macbook.
- radus 3y agoThis is my experience as well :/
- nfriedly 3y agoYou're probably right about that. Mine hibernates after a few hours, and then it does take a bit longer to be ready to use, but I've never noticed significant battery drain in between usages. My SSD is a SK Hynix P41, which I believe does support the lower power states.
- Lio 3y agoWhenever I hear about a new Framework launch it makes me think of the Sandbenders computer in Idoru[1] by William Gibson. Nice to see sustainable, reparable and upgradable laptops come to market. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idoru https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idoru
- danShumway 3y agoI'm very excited about this; I'm not in a position right now where I particularly need a laptop, but my existing laptop is very much EOL at this point, to the point where some components have started failing, and depending on reviews I strongly suspect that when I need a new laptop the Framework 16 will be it. The biggest feature I want is a good stylus/touchscreen for portable drawing, in my dream world that would be something I could swap in and out, possibly replacing the keyboard. I can imagine having the front keyboard mostly be a touchscreen display and just sticking a narrow module to one side of the screen with hotkeys... Having a decent laptop that I can add a GPU to and take a GPU off of, add a digitizer and use as a drawing tablet or remove a touchscreen for trips where I don't need one, switch keyboards for specific projects -- quick swapping of components isn't just cool from a repair perspective, it's a major selling point to be able to have a single device that can serve multiple roles on demand. In most cases you probably don't want a GPU on a laptop; you want extra battery life. Until you do. And when you have some rendering workload or something intensive to do, you turn off the computer, plug in the GPU, and turn it back on. I really hope that 3rd-party components take off. I'm trying to be responsible and wait until I have an actual need (and at the very least I want to wait and see reviews), but I'd be very tempted to buy one of these as soon as they launch if there was digitizer support, there aren't a lot of good, repairable, linux-compatible drawing tablets on the market.
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- Solvency 3y agoI'm still bummer Framework teased having translucent laptop shells and then reneged on it. Even Apple no longer indulges in this style. I miss it.
- nrp 3y agoWe had a translucent version of the Bezel for Framework Laptop 13, which we shipped to the people who ordered it in the first few batches of 13th Gen and Ryzen 7040 preorders last year. The manufacturing yields ended up too low to continue production of it with the tooling we re-use across a number of different Bezel colors, so we removed the option from new orders.
- rpmisms 3y agoWhen can I get an Ortholinear keyboard module? I will happily switch from my MacBook air the moment Ortho is supported on a laptop. Did anything ever come of the collab with Jack Humbert?
- jakamau 3y agoI have the DIY FW13 Intel 11th Gen with Fedora. I've had an overall positive experience and have enjoyed tinkering with it. My only negative with it has been the issue specific to 11th gens where the CMOS drains and eventually dies if the laptop is left unplugged for days-to-weeks at a time. On the whole Framework handled the issue well, there was no permanent fix without soldering or replacing the board. The company was upfront, provided support, a replacement battery, and even published a how-to on modifying the mainboard after the fact. With a start-up I was expecting some bugs. This one was irritating but not a deal breaker. I think how they handled the problem and how they've proven their commitment to upgradeability through the 12th, 13th, and Ryzen boards speaks well of the company. While I am extremely keen on the AMD versions that have rolled out recently, I can't justify the purchase when my current FW13 still works well enough. The FW16 probably isn't for me but I hope it's successful. I really want to see the docking station that can double as an eGPU using the FW16 discrete GPU module. There was a prototype mentioned in passing about a year ago but it's been radio silence since then. I hope the success of Framework laptops and the growing market for gaming handhelds like the Steam Deck makes the modular eGPU concept a little more reasonable. It's still incredibly niche but one can dream.
- schmorptron 3y agoIt looks like the next-gen Zen 5 AMD cpus will be another large leap anyways, so not needing to upgrade now should make you even happier down the line! :)
- ochoseis 3y ago> On the whole Framework handled the issue well, there was no permanent fix without soldering or replacing the board. The company was upfront, provided support, a replacement battery, and even published a how-to on modifying the mainboard after the fact. IMHO, handling it well would mean recalling and replacing the defective mainboards (so long as they’re in warranty). They must have a ton of brand equity / good will if customers are that willing to roll up their sleeves.
- spartanatreyu 3y ago> IMHO, handling it well would mean recalling and replacing the defective mainboards (so long as they’re in warranty). Just remember, this flaw was on the one model right at the start of the company. Recalling the boards at that point (where the company probably wasn't making a profit yet) could have killed the company. Definitely not worth doing. But short of a total recall, they did the next best thing. They released detailed instructions on how to repair a laptop while having the schematics for the laptop be open, and going out of their way to design the laptop in such a way to make repair as easy as possible, and said that self repairs would not affect any warrantees. No other laptop manufacturer would have done that. That's why they are seen as good in the community's eyes.
- tonoto 3y agoI just wish it was possible to make an order from Sweden
- desireco42 3y agoWhen I need a laptop, I think 13" is factor I would go for. Definitely some creativity around even shells would be great, if not exotic keyboards and more. I currently have Thinkpad with PopOs! and love it, so I would go with that.
- cdata 3y agoJust gonna add my voice to the chorus of folks singing the praises of Framework's laptops. I have used the 13 for the last few years, and I'm planning to upgrade to a 16 soon. As a long-time Linux user, it's been my favorite laptop by far. A great machine, and a zero-compromise experience from a hardware support PoV. In fact, when you consider Framework's standard-setting level of user serviceability, it makes other laptops seem like a pretty major compromise.
- _odey 3y agoHonestly, this article ended up being more of an endorsement for the Tuxedo Pulse 14 laptop than for Framework, at least to me. The price difference between the two is noticeable (more than the 5% geometric mean result) and Tuxedo as a company officially supports Linux in their machines, as opposed to Framework which don't. Yes I know about Framework laptops working with Linux installed, and about Framework drivers existing in fwupd, but Tuxedo actually sell laptops with Linux pre-installed and Framework doesn't; yes that distinction actually matters, it means the company itself is willing to put their name on the line with Linux support. Sorry @nrp, I did not want to be so negative about the Framework 16, but I do think you have tough competition from Tuxedo in particular and the customizability might not be enough to justify the price difference (at least it is not for me). Back to the benchmarks themselves, I'd assume the Framework 16 would perform a bit better (at least more than 5%) compared to the Framework 13, I'm guessing there might be some optimisations that could come in the future to improve the results? Maybe it's strength is in longer lived benchmarks because of (supposedly) better thermals, or in performance per watt?
- postpawl 3y agoNo modular GPU makes Tuxedo Pulse 14 a pretty different product?
- _odey 3y agoMaybe, for my personal purposes it does not. Considering how I use, and intend to use a laptop, I wound not purchase the GPU module. I'm judging the two as a replacement for my current laptop, and the GPU does not really affect that. The soldered RAM on the Tuxedo Pulse 14 laptop does indeed give me doubts, I'm not saying it's flawless, only that, at least to me, it provides a better overall justification for the purchase.
- MostlyStable 3y agoIf you don't need the modular GPU, and are considering a 14 inch anyways, then why is the FW 13 not your reference machine anyways? But yeah, it sounds like the FM16 probably isn't the product for your needs.
- layer8 3y agoFor a customizable/modular laptop, it’s a pity that we can’t have full-height cursor and function keys, or even a ThinkPad-style seventh row.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y agothat arrow key configuration is an absolute show-stopper for me and has been since MS came out with a version of their original white ergo keyboards with that configuration. it was this: http://xahlee.info/kbd/i/Microsoft_Natural_Keyboard_Gen1-s.jpg http://xahlee.info/kbd/i/Microsoft_Natural_Keyboard_Gen1-s.j... vs this: https://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/ProductImage/23-109-028-02.jpg https://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/ProductImage/23-109-... I'm pretty sure it was still the 90's when I developed this special hate for changing the arrow keys.
- 0x38B 3y agoMy 11th gen Intel Framework is my only PC and has been a great machine. I use it for dev, gaming, and general computing. Integrated Intel graphics goes surprisingly far if you run games at 720p - Skyrim, Dishonered, the Mass Effects, and more recently Battlebit all run well. I'd imagine the more recent Ryzens would be much better. I want the 16 for more screen real-estate and better gaming; I've had family notice my laptop and make positive comments, so I may pass it on when I eventually upgrade. On a related note, I saw someone else with a Framework laptop at a coffee shop the other day here in Alaska - super cool! First time I've seen another Framework user :)
- j5155 3y agoFor what it’s worth, that makes at least 3 of us in Alaska with one :)
- tulsidas 3y agounless you were the one he saw, and there are only 2 :)
- jandrese 3y ago> run games at 720p - Skyrim, Dishonered, the Mass Effects 720p and games that are 12+ years old or are deliberately low poly. That's not the most ringing of endorsements.
- Gigachad 3y agoI remember playing Skyrim in 720p on my 2012 MacBook Air through wine..
- callalex 3y agoWhile I agree with you that pc gaming is such a mature space that you can have an entire lifetime of fun with a historical catalog, the games you are describing are brushing up against the category of “retro gaming” at this point and the performance you are describing would be considered poor in the year those titles were released.
- conqrr 3y agoThere's definitely an audience for Framework. But for a laptop/mini-pc user who likes to keep their tech for 7+ years and usually opt for no special graphics. A mini-pc works great for me. Lot of them have good Linux compatibility too. ~70% of the cost is the CPU/motherboard which cannot be swapped. I don't care much about specific ports etc. As long as I can extend RAM and SSD, that's enough customization. So a framework feels overkill.
- zbrozek 3y agoMy AMD Framework 13 occasionally hangs and requires hard reset to come back to life. No errors are generated. As far as I can tell it instantly and unpredictably stops executing any instructions at all. There hasn't been a driver or firmware update in three months. The keyboard and trackpad are mediocre. The fan vents are on the bottom of the computer where they're almost permanently blocked. It's not a terrible computer, and it does have what was most important to me when I was buying (a matte 3:2 screen). But I can't recommend it to anybody.
- GeorgeHahn 3y agoI agree, the input devices leave something to be desired. I dream of grafting a MBP keyboard and trackpad onto my FW13.
- callalex 3y agoAs far as I can tell, and I’m happy to be corrected, most of the Apple trackpad “magic” comes from the software drivers, not from unique hardware. So making a frankenwork laptop wouldn’t really help unless you spent effort fighting with closed source blobs in an environment they don’t want to be in.
- cassepipe 3y agoOn the bottom is the air in-take. The air is blown at the edge of the bottom between the hinges. I have the fw13 12th gen and I don't think the keyboard and trackpad are mediocre at all. I am running the Fedora Cinnamon spin. The issue for me is that only sometimes it takes a minutes to get out of sleep after I close the lid. Apart from that it works fine, and I would recommend it.
- zbrozek 3y agoDeepest apologies; I meant to say grille. Regardless of the flow direction, I am constantly blocking the aperture with my legs or blanket. The touchpad frequently misidentifies movement as taps, something that hasn't been a problem for me on the Macbook Pro, the X1 Carbon, or the Microsoft Surface. The keyboard keys aren't too bad, but could have a sharper inflection point in the force vs travel and also be little bit less wobbly. Neither of these are fatal flaws, but are enough, I think, to call them mediocre. Do you also find that the computer forgets its DDR5 training pretty regularly and takes a long time to boot? For me I think it's ~1-in-10 boots.
- hkt 3y agoI know this is nuts, but I recently bought a thinkpad x230t from 2012 when my StarBook died after a year, and it is the best laptop I've ever used.
- canadiantim 3y agoI bought the framework 13, but I'm just left wondering what was the point? Like... there's nothing to upgrade anyway. When I buy a new laptop it won't be a framework laptop, that's for sure. I'm not even convinced the hardware switches are real. When I toggle them on and off, my camera and mic still work so... clearly cant have actually been hardware switches.
- rkagerer 3y agoPlus in maintaining the slimness of the overall laptop if wanting to use the Gigabit Ethernet port it sticks out from the side of the laptop. I really wish they'd fix this.
- mixmastamyk 3y agoYes, and please put some ports on the back. Who the hell wants ethernet cables running sideways across their desk?
- rkagerer 3y agoYeah, speaking for myself a mix of dense standard ports and a few swappable ones would be more attractive. I wouldn't even mind them being more difficult to swap out (requiring some disassembly) if it meant they were smaller or sturdier.
- maxglute 3y agoHow big does framework have to grow before they can provide color options.
- hurutparittya 3y agoI'm also interested in this. It's literally the only thing holding me back from getting one. If I spend $3k+ on a machine I don't want it to look like an off-brand Macbook.
- maxglute 3y agoI'll settle for offbrand matte black thinkpad. I just checked and there's decent DBRAND skins but the bottom coverage is ugly.
- hurutparittya 3y agoIf only they had an anodized black option.... The fact that you have to resort to breaking out the rattle-can or use janky stickers on your $3000+ machine just to have it in the most popular computer color is simply maddening.
- pmontra 3y agoA very interesting laptop and possibly my next one of my 10 yo ZBook dies for any reason. Two improvements: matte screen and note than anything else physical buttons on the touchpad. I don't mind if they make the touchpad any smaller. I don't need all the area of the touchpads of the last years. I wonder if some other company will make accessories for the Framework, starting from the touchpad. By the way, I'd buy the laptop without the number pad and finally get a touchpad / keyboard combination centered with the screen and my body.
- Ulysseswho1 3y agoI can't say anything about the touch pad bit, it isn't my personal preference but i understand the appeal, but the screen is matte.
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