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FTC bans TurboTax from advertising 'free' services, calls deceptive advertising
- abirch 3y agoThis is nice. Free should mean free no matter how much large print text to clarify is needed.
- xahrepap 3y agoNext I’d like them to go after windshield chip repair shops and pharmacies that advertise “free*” services. Where free == paid by your insurance. Assuming your insurance will pay for all of it. Free doesn’t mean paid for someone you paid to handle it for you.
- al_borland 3y agoI asked one of those chip repair guys how it worked years ago. He said the insurance companies pay them to repair the chips, because those little fixes are much cheaper than paying to replace the whole windshield when it inevitably cracks. It seems like a win-win-win. The driver gets the windshield fixed with no out of pocket cost, the chip guy makes some cash, and the insurance company saves money. Where’s the downside?
- KTibow 3y agoWhile that does sound good I think the previous comment was saying how it's not free without insurance so it's not technically free
- al_borland 3y agoI suppose. Where I’m at, and I think almost everywhere in the US, drivers are legally required to have car insurance. Assuming the chip repair places don’t require a premium level of insurance, it should be a non-issue, as the requirement is something everyone is already paying for.
- figassis 3y agoIt is still not free. We need to stop redefining things.
- coloneltcb 3y agoIntuit is an embarrassment of a tech company. Instead of innovating in software, they've invested infinitely more in lobbying to keep tax-filing complex and in creating new and innovative dark patterns to obscure their (federally mandated, btw) free product.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoThey are not a tech company. They are a regulatory capture company that uses tech to extract from the general public what should be free. The code and platform are the performance art to enable the rake. Edit: Meant to scope this comment solely to TurboTax. Replies correcting me are well deserved.
- pcurve 3y agoI think most people would be shocked to learn how big intuit is in terms of market cap. Bigger than Verizon wellsfargo ibm nike
- rootusrootus 3y agoFrom comments in threads like this I think most people would be shocked that Intuit makes the largest segment of their income from business customers, not individual consumers.
- foolswisdom 3y agoIs this true for turbotax specifically, or merely for intuit as a whole (which includes things like quickbooks)?
- pcurve 3y agoThe “business customer” is a slight misnomer because Intuits definition of this segment includes “Small Business and Self Employed”. Quickbooks accounts for thr largest share For consumer segment TurboTax still drives 30% of their entire revenue.
- bsimpson 3y ago> This decision is the result of a biased and broken system where the Commission serves as accuser, judge, jury, and then appellate judge all in the same case Interesting argument, but also a distraction from "we lied in advertising." > It could also clearly disclose the percentage of customers that actually do qualify for the free service, somewhere close to the “free” claim advertised, the commission said. They ran an ad during the 49ers game this weekend, centered around it being free for the character in the ad. I'm guessing that's how they'll work around this.
- MBCook 3y agoBills game too. I noticed it because I thought they were already banned. It was much more clear it wasn’t free for everyone than the old “free free free free” ads, but still heavily emphasized the free part.
- mardef 3y agoTheir phrasing is specific to align themselves with the current supreme Court review of deference. They'll likely delay until that decision has come down and they hope they can just claim the laws were unconstitutional in the first place. https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/01/supreme-court-to-hear-major-case-on-power-of-federal-agencies/ https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/01/supreme-court-to-hear-maj...
- granzymes 3y agoRight idea, wrong case. The relevant case this term is SEC v. Jarkesy, which presents some of the "Federal agency adjudication is unconstitutional" arguments. The FTC brought this suit in-house before their own Administrative Law Judge, which is what TurboTax is protesting. The two cases related to Chevron deference also implicate agency power, but they implicate agency power in the actual courts. https://www.scotusblog.com/2023/11/justices-to-consider-multi-pronged-constitutional-attack-on-sec/ https://www.scotusblog.com/2023/11/justices-to-consider-mult...
- fyrn_ 3y agoHonestly, not thsg interesting of an argument to me as a citizen. This is exactly the kind if thing I want the FTC to have the power to handle without getting tied up in court for 15 years like everything else seems to. Far to easy for a corp to delay while it pays otherwise.
- WheelsAtLarge 3y agoFinally, something is being done. Paying taxes should be free for most people. Especially if you only have to deal with the standard deductions.
- chad_strategic 3y agoI came here to say the above. But let me add the following… Intuit is a criminal lobbying organization.
- mulmen 3y agoWhat laws have they broken?
- lmm 3y agoWell, apparently they've been putting out deceptive advertising.
- jrockway 3y agoIs there any non-deceptive advertising?
- mulmen 3y agoYes. I bought a cheeseburger once and got a free coke, just like the sign said. There’s certainly a line because some advertising is illegal and some isn’t.
- mulmen 3y agoThe claim is that Intuit is a “criminal lobbying organization” so what lobbying laws were broken? Or was lobbying meant to be a verb instead of an adjective?
- chad_strategic 3y ago
- mportela 3y agoAny recommendations on how to really file taxes for free (federal and state)?
- loeg 3y agoFWIW, TurboTax has a C# method ("IsProductActivationRequired()" or something like that) you can overwrite to 'return false' with tools like dnSpy.
- linsomniac 3y agoI've been using https://www.freetaxusa.com/ https://www.freetaxusa.com/ the last couple years and plan to continue this year. It is free for Federal (though I usually pay for an upgrade), and state is $15. The only option I know of for free state is to do the forms manually.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ok_dad 3y agoI second this suggestion. The free federal taxes and $15 state actually mean free federal and $15 for state! You can certainly add on the "pro service" or "audit protection" or whatever if you want, but it is simple to say NO to those and just do the forms. This year, I opted for the "audit protection" because of some new tax forms I had to fill out, but overall I only paid $45 with the sales tax. I used to use Turbo Tax and paid about $100 per year on average, but it was simple to switch to using another provider, I just had to get the previous year's return out to fill some stuff that is filled automatically if you use the service each year.
- logiduck 3y agoI just saw an TurboTax Ad where a guy was like "I Like free stuff" and then it said he was "happy to read the disclaimer" on TurboTax and see that "Roughly 37% of taxpayers qualify" which he looks thoughtfully in the distance and says "Thats me!" I thought it was a funny commercial because 37% doesn't seem like a lot and Turbotax is portraying it as the average person will identify themselves as part of that 37% even though that is not too far off form just 1/3 people so a minority of people. It was one of the few times I saw a company blatantly lean into the negatives in their fine print and just outright tell you its good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iijnr4UR4QE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iijnr4UR4QE
- halJordan 3y agoI agree on every level, but I'm compelled to remind you this is the America where wendy's (?) had to revert to a 1/4 pounder from a 1/3 pounder bc people thought they were getting less meat. And let's not forget the ever-present anti-education cohort that can't be convinced math is good even when you tell them it's how you calculate discounts or tips.
- sharps1 3y agoI had to look this up as I didn’t grow up in the States. It was A&W. https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/06/17/third-pound-burger-fractions/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/06/17/third-pound-burger-fr... Crazy.
- cityofdelusion 3y agoThis story has to be apocryphal, as fractions aren't _that_ rare, especially in the U.S. with its imperial system and third of a cup measurements or quarter inches or half miles and so on.
- MBCook 3y agoReportedly that’s the answer they got in focus groups when they tried to figure out why it failed. 4 > 3.
- rconti 3y agoI've only ever used the installable version of TurboTax, and I knew up front that I'd have to pay for CA filing. How transparent is the web site version? Do you have to spend an hour entering all your tax info just to find out that you'll have to pay to file? Or are they pretty good about notifying you up front? In the paid installable version, I can still print out my CA tax return and mail it in to avoid paying the e-filing fee, but I'm not sure how that works with the web version, either.
- daft_pink 3y agoYou knew you would have to pay for the ca version, but did you know how much you had to pay at the beginning. I buy the disk at Costco every year and feel the pricing is anything but transparent and they are very misleading. It includes the state free but only paper file and $10 credit for a mystery price state return
- rconti 3y agoAh good question! Of course I knew in future years, but I'm not sure I knew up front.
- keepamovin 3y agoFinally! This is only 30 years too late. Also, let’s hope the IRS’ current beta of self filing app is successful.
- bubblethink 3y agoThis will get stayed during the appeal, so status quo will remain for this tax season. And next year there are many new variables, potentially a new government, SC's Chevron ruling which may limit what FTC can do, etc. I don't think this is going to stick.
- Guvante 3y agoHonestly it might not. It sounds like Intuit already has prepared advertising that fulfils the requirements from threads here.
- MikeTheGreat 3y agoCould you say more about the "self filing app"? A quick Google search didn't turn up anything (which probably says more about my current lack of sleep than anything :) )
- daswerth 3y agohttps://www.irs.gov/about-irs/strategic-plan/direct-file https://www.irs.gov/about-irs/strategic-plan/direct-file Not to be confused with IRS Free File
- bubblethink 3y agoHah, saw that you edited the url. These government naming schemes are designed to fail. Why do they pick these absolute terms like "free" when there will clearly be some new thing that will be better? I'm waiting for the next version of REAL id, a realer id.
- daswerth 3y ago
- mariya12 3y ago[flagged]
- ryukoposting 3y agoIf the IRS had the budget to run those ridiculous "free free free" ads from a couple years ago, TurboTax would cease to exist.
- apengwin 3y agoIncreasing the IRS budget is an unequivocal good!
- tasty_freeze 3y ago50% of the country believes tax is theft, and they also imagine if there were no taxes and the IRS abolished we'd somehow still continue to support an army, have a federal court system, a patent office, etc, etc, and that their state will continue to get federal subsidies. That was the entire point of Obama's speech that republican news sources and libertarians eviscerated him for: "You didn't build that". He wasn't saying that you didn't build your business; he was stating you didn't build all the infrastructure that allowed you to build and run your business, and that is why taxes are not theft. There is a legitimate argument over how much taxes and what is should be spent on, but those nuanced discussions are entirely replaced by BS.
- cheeseomlit 3y agoEvery dollar I've ever paid in federal taxes has been thrown into a black hole of debt never to be seen again, their actual spending is fueled by debasement of the currency (IE. money printing). The only purpose of taxation in such a system is to reduce inflationary pressure caused by their own malfeasance, I can't imagine they actually need the revenue since there seems to be no relationship between revenue and spending anyways. This all makes our current system of taxation feel less like a civic duty and more like a scam. >50% of the country believes tax is theft, and they also imagine if there were no taxes and the IRS abolished we'd somehow still continue to support an army, have a federal court system, a patent office, etc, etc, and that their state will continue to get federal subsidies. That is not at all what 50% of the country believes, its a hyperbolic strawman. Obviously taxation is necessary to fund public services, just because someone criticizes the litany of flaws in our specific system doesn't mean they don't believe in the concept of taxation. Funny that you go on to complain about lack of nuance.
- andersrs 3y agoMost countries governments are crap at software yet still manage to put together a free to use tax portal with automatic filing for all but the most complex cases.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y agoSee that's what you get when your government focuses on its citizens. Instead, US has corporations. Corporations like Intuit, which it uses to decide what its policies should be. Oh us? We merely live here.
- adaboese 3y agoIt is more crazy that this was allowed to continue for so long.
- altairprime 3y agoOpenTaxSolver should be released for US 2023 in a few days! Can’t wait. Forms and math, be still my heart.
- SoftTalker 3y agoIt's 2024. It's beyond time for the IRS to offer free tax filing online. You've been able to file for free on paper since forever. But again, it's 2024. Paper is not a reasonable solution for either filers or the IRS in 2024. It's difficult to handle, error-prone, and all the software they use to validate paper forms could be repurposed to accept online forms. And the online forms should be pre-filled with all the information the IRS already has about your income for the prior year. It's not acceptable to have to pay companies like Intuit (and give them all your personal financial information) for software to file an individual tax return. I don't care if you're wealthy or poor, this should be free and provided by the IRS. Contact your representatives. Demand that they get it done.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throwawaymaths 3y agoUh, you know that it's a thing starting this year? https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/17/politics/irs-free-tax-filing-pilot-direct-file/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/17/politics/irs-free-tax-filing-...
- Antrikshy 3y agoTIL! Fortunately, my state (Washington) is on the list. Unclear when it will be ready for use. Anyone know? I just signed up for their newsletter.
- mfi 3y agoIn Sweden, for most citizen the tax authority does the tax declaration for you. If you don't want to do any changes (which most people doesn't have to), you simply write a text to them [1]. [1] https://skatteverket.se/servicelankar/otherlanguages/inenglishengelska/individualsandemployees/declaringtaxesforindividuals/howtofileyourtaxreturn.4.7be5268414bea064694c620.html?q=to+declare https://skatteverket.se/servicelankar/otherlanguages/inengli...
- midasuni 3y agoHow do private shareholders make a profit and thus increase the gdp from that?
- satao 3y agoby freeing people from wasting money on rentseekers and letting them spend money on more productive things?
- redrove 3y agoTo be fair, in Sweden the taxes are also insane. I’d rather have to pay some middleman a paltry sum every year than pay 30% more tax just for the privilege of the government automatically calculating them for me. Not saying the US shouldn’t do this automatically, I’m merely pointing out it’s not a 1 to 1 comparison.
- consp 3y agoIf you include healthcare, daycare, state pensions, disability insurance, employment insurance etc as a tax (which it is in most cases with more tax) the "insane" amount isn't that insane anymore.
- redrove 3y agoIf you make $250k/yr+ in the US all of those problems melt away due to the availability of disposable income. In the EU you top out at €100-150k. I say this from experience as a European who's lived on both continents.
- Zambyte 3y agoWhile they're at it, they should go after services that include "free benefits" as a part of the service. The word "free" occurs 24 times in this list of what you get access to by paying $150 a year: https://web.archive.org/web/20240123132728/https://www.amazon.com/b/node=23945845011?activeTab=explore-aisles-tab https://web.archive.org/web/20240123132728/https://www.amazo...
- tiltowait 3y agoThis has always driven me nuts. At an old job, I got my boss to stop doing it, which felt like a nice victory.
- mrandish 3y agoThe part of me that reveres clear, concise, correct communication appreciates any effort to encourage factual correctness. However, the cynically jaded part of me concedes that this battle has already been lost - at least in the public sphere of communication (eg politics, advertising, journalism, social media, corporate comms). Anyone paying attention already knows that anything of value you don't pay for directly will have indirect costs, most often in the form of strings attached, advertising, upsells and annoyances. Today, whenever I hear something offered for "Free" it immediately implies two things. First, any actual value on offer is relatively low (or net negative), and second, the entity offering it has made a choice to obfuscate the true cost for reasons I'd need to understand before engaging. This means I probably don't want it and even if I might want something like the promise of it, I'd have to navigate and parse a maze of obfuscation crafted by someone who's already not being entirely upfront with me. Since A) I generally value my time (and related intangibles like vendor grief, inconsistency, etc) more than my money, and B) I've learned I'm usually not happy with the lower cost versions of things that matter to me - I've adopted a default stance of "I don't want anything that's free". It's possible I'm some kind of oddball outlier but I don't think so. In fact, I'm fairly confident a good chunk of the highly-desirable "reasonably affluent consumer" segment are similarly jaded and now associate any offer pushing "FREE" in the top-line with a negative connotation.
- zelon88 3y agoThere is a negative connotation with "FREE" to savvy consumers who understand, at least somehwat, the product or service they are buying. However, many consumers don't understand a) economics or b) what they are buying. For example, look at all the Facebook posts from older people who repost things like "TODAY IS YOUR LUCKY DAY!!! SHARE AND YOU WILL FIND $10K TODAY!!!" They don't realize it's fake. They don't understand where that $10k comes from. There could be some secret hidden value stream built into Facebook that's promoting this. Maybe I'll find out later. Maybe I'll have to sit through a seminar for a timeshare. Maybe it will all be worth it. The people who fall for this would fall for anything. The reason why it's so dangerous here, is that the IRS wants tax filing to be free. They've been trying to make it free, actually free, for years. And taxes are something that 100% of Americans have to do. So the market is literally 1*[entire population], annually. But these capitalists keep finding predatory ways to ignore the IRS and FTC. They just need to be fined so substantially that it wipes out a couple years profit. That's the only way the risk will no longer be worth the reward and these companies will stop.
- electrondood 3y agoGood. I decided to boycott Intuit after one too many dark UI/email patterns. They lie to you in their marketing emails. To opt out you need to enter an entire page's worth of personal information (I thought there was a 1-click unsubscribe law?). Using TurboTax, I've lost count of the number of times I've gotten to the end of the process and discovered that they quietly upsold me 12 screens back, knowing that most customers just say "screw it, I'll pay the $100." I switched to FreeTaxUSA.com last year and it was dead simple. Never going back. Also, the only reason I used Mint was to see a net worth widget on my phone. During the forced migration to Credit Karma, halfway through being made to create an entirely new account, I found that they have no such widget. Bye.
- lacker 3y agoI think this is good. I rarely watch network TV, and when I do I'm surprised by how maliciously misleading the advertisements often are. Every "only $X per month" claim is undercut by something explaining that it doesn't really apply. I noticed watching the NFL playoffs that Intuit is a big abuser of this advertising technique, constantly claiming their tax filing product is free, when this is not really the case from a normal human point of view. I would like to see "fine print" completely disallowed for video ads. Don't let people read out loud a claim like "Get your blah for free" or "For only thirty dollars a month", if that claim is only legal because the exceptions are explained in words too small for most people to notice.
- olliej 3y agoI feel that advertisements that say “could be free” or “up to X% off”, or similar should only be legal if the statements are accurate for the overwhelming majority of customers. E.g you could advertise “free filing” if your free filing applied to 90% off people filing on your platform, you could say up to 20% off everything if more than 90% of expected sales are in the 19-20% range (also prohibit”sale” prices that are functionally the normal price with a fake markdown)
- mghtest 3y ago[flagged]