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The Third Barbary War seems to be upon us. I don’t this is going to end any better for the pirates than the first two. Those shipping lanes are vital, and there

The Third Barbary War seems to be upon us. I don’t this is going to end any better for the pirates than the first two. Those shipping lanes are vital, and there is only so much disruption the international order will accept before putting a decisive end to the interference.

hmmokidk 3y ago
Or they can just stop the Genocide.
- tim333 3y ago
  If there was one.
Cyph0n 3y ago
I concur with the flagged reply. The Houthis provided a solution on day 1: a ceasefire to end the genocide in Gaza. We will look back on the escalation of the conflict in Yemen as a strategic blunder. The Biden administration is digging itself deeper & deeper into a hole of its own making.
- Papirola 3y ago
  there's an even simpler solution to the war in gaza: have hamas release all the hostages.
  - tmnvix 3y ago
    That won't stop the hostilities. Israel has two stated objectives: free the hostages and eliminate Hamas. The Israeli government is very unlikely to agree to a ceasefire in return for the hostages.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > won't stop the hostilities It would undermine a lot of Israel’s international support. At the end of the day, the Houthis aren’t in Gaza. Them raising random asks is orthogonal to the security threat they pose. Piracy is piracy.
    - prmph 3y ago
      Freeing the hostages AND giving up their weapons AND committing to not attack Israel again will end the war.
      - tim333 3y ago
        Even keeping their weapons but saying they'll try to live in peace with Israel would be a huge change. However it's part of Hamas's founding charter to destroy Israel and they aren't prepared to give it up, which then leads the the jolly situation we have now.
      - HDThoreaun 3y ago
        But gazans wont do that. They live in a prison camp, why would they ever commit to not attacking Israel again?
- ekianjo 3y ago
  > The Houthis provided a solution on day 1: a ceasefire to end the genocide in Gaza. Really? That seems to be funny for a group that is actively promoting another kind of genocide as part of their political manifesto: > The group's slogan reads as following: "God Is Great, Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movement If you had such neighbors they might just decide to kill you if you are not of their tribe. Not sure why people would whitewash such a group of extremists.
  - richrichie 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Was there anything in particular that you felt wasn't accurate?
    - ekianjo 3y ago
      I agree with general skepticism about Wikipedia but in this case it's the official motto, so there's nothing much left for interpretation.
  - fakedang 3y ago
    Because Westerners who support extremists are extremely stupid and self-damaging. Don't take my word for it, just listen to the UAE foreign minister's view on it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-dV4m43xZmY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-dV4m43xZmY The West things they know Islam, specifically radical Islam, better than we do, because they did two semesters worth of courses on Middle Eastern studies at their local university.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - ekianjo 3y ago
- bdhess 3y ago
  Aka cede de facto authority over international waters to a buncha thugs whose official slogan includes “death to America, death to Israel”. No thanks.
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    One thing that seems to be confirmed over and over is how people who come up with "just negotiate with them" seem to have a thinking process that does not span over a couple of days Funny how those people never seem to have any reservations to what hamas did, or any of the history of the past 20 yrs
    - jedimind 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - raverbashing 3y ago
        Not without reservations, but it's not like Israel's neighbors tolerated its existence > like the perpetual ethnic-cleansing Funny you ask that, makes me wonder what happened to the jews of the levantine and arab countries
        Incipient 3y ago
        Fwiw, I both sides are so bloodstained that neither is the right choice. The absolute bare minimum of a position is "I'm taking the less bad side" but I think both are so awful neither honestly viable to support on a social level (political is different)
        jedimind 3y ago
        [flagged]
        jedimind 3y ago
        > Not without reservations, but it's not like Israel's neighbors tolerated its existence Of course not, why on earth would anyone tolerate a bunch of invaders taking over their land? Zionists are really still making that argument as if it makes a lick of sense. No sane human would react otherwise. >Funny you ask that, makes me wonder what happened to the jews of the levantine and arab countries What came first? Exactly, Zionists started ethnic-cleansing Palestinians and IN RESPONSE their neighbors acted in kind, which by the way was exactly what Zionists wanted anyway. They wanted and needed as many jews in occupied Palestine as possible, so it was an emotional response from their neighbors that was a moral and strategic mistake.
- ycombinete 3y ago
  Geopolitical Chesterton’s Fence: if you can’t explain why the Houthis existed before 2023; then you shouldn’t give opinions on what motivates them now.
  - Cyph0n 3y ago
    Oh, I have been aware of the Houthis and their agenda since their rise as part of the Yemeni revolution and subsequent civil war. Whether we like it or not, the Houthis are now a major player in Yemen. As for the current situation, my point was to clarify that the Houthis didn’t just randomly wake up in the morning one day and start attacking commercial ships for no reason. They communicated their reasoning and demands from the very start, and made it clear that this was their response to the ongoing genocide in Gaza. The US response was to simply ignore their demands and just bomb Yemen. This is a mistake. The Houthis (and Iran by proxy) are no strangers to conflict. Bombing Yemen will do nothing to stop attacks on commercial shipping - in fact, it probably will escalate them. Worse yet, starting a new conflict doesn’t help the negative reputation the US has built up over the past few months in the eyes of the so-called global south. Instead, this gives China an excellent opportunity to step in as a (actually) neutral power.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      Ansar Allah was targeting commercial shipping in the Red Sea long before the Gaza crisis.
      - Cyph0n 3y ago
        Well, assuming that’s true, it’s clearly happening at a different scale here. The global response is proof.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - raverbashing 3y ago
      Ah yes so nice of them to worry about Gaza, I'm sure it's all due to how pure of heart they are /s > Bombing Yemen will do nothing to stop attacks on commercial shipping This is bully logic. It can escalate the conflict, yes, but destruction of artillery and missiles works
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - jedimind 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - prmph 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - hackerlight 3y ago
    > If Palestine didn't want war they shouldn't have let Hamas initiate acts of war We should avoid collectivizing the motives and capabilities of heterogeneous individuals, many of them children, and many of them adults who do not support Hamas's atrocities but had no ability to stop them without being killed themselves. It's one thing to say that the civilian deaths in this war are unfortunate collateral damage, it's another thing to do away with the concept of collateral damage entirely and pretend that every single individual bears moral culpability for Hamas's actions, just for the crime of being born on the wrong side of the fence.
    - tety 3y ago
      It's tragic, but there was and is wide support of October 7 attacks in Gaza, as well there was wide participation of the civilian (non-organization aligned) population in the massacres, including looting, killing, kidnapping and probably rape. Furthermore, Hamas was elected by the population under popular vote, and it is a palestinian organization entrenched in every facet of civilian organizations and life, and strongly stems from palestinian cultural norms (e.g. islamism, martyrdom, etc) You cannot completely act as if Hamas is not the defacto government in Gaza, and in any war in history, especially urban warfare in civilian setting with non-uniformed combatants, you cannot truly hurt only the military apparatus without also hurting civilians. This is simply a fact of life. It is a Western trope going as far back as the Nazis to act as if governments have no representation of their citzenship, especially authocratic ones. Even to this day for example, the German government of 1933-1945 are called 'the nazis' rather than germans, as if they came from outer space, and returned to their planet on 1945, leaving none of their members in the Western/Eastern Germany governments.
- tmnvix 3y ago
  I may have missed it, but the failure of any western leaders to publicly acknowledge the Houthi's stated reasons for their actions (and by extension their demands) is conspicuous.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    It conspicuously indicates that nobody takes their public statements seriously.
    - Cyph0n 3y ago
      Nobody = none of the so-called “unbiased” Western media outlets (more like government mouthpieces at this point).
      - tptacek 3y ago
        Yes, I'm referring to the sheeple. Sorry, we're the ones who vote.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    No one is taking their words seriously, just their actions.
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  [flagged]
- Protostome 3y ago
  Actually, there's no genocide happening in Gaza. Yes, there are way too many civilian casualties, which is awful. But here's the thing: Hamas often launches attacks from places where people live, putting those civilians in danger. They kind of use this as a tactic, because the more civilian casualties there are, the more pressure is on Israel to stop fighting. Now, about those tunnels in Gaza – they're everywhere, right? But Hamas doesn't let ordinary folks use them for safety. That's pretty different from Israel, where new apartments have had to include bunkers since the 90s, and you can find bomb shelters all over the place. So, the sad truth is, the high number of civilians dying in Gaza is mainly because of how Hamas operates, using its own people as a shield.
  - hayst4ck 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Protostome 3y ago
      I get where you're coming from, But let's put things in perspective. First off, nobody's saying that the loss of innocent lives, especially children, isn't tragic. It's heartbreaking, and every life lost is a huge deal. But saying that Israel is intentionally targeting children and women oversimplifies and misrepresents the reality. You mentioned feeling ashamed, like back during the Iraq war, but consider this: have you ever been in the shoes of a country under constant threat from a radical militant group? Imagine if 1,200 of your citizens were attacked, with the clear intent of causing as much harm as possible. What would you expect your country to do? Most people would say: stop the threat, make sure it never happens again. Hamas (and many of its supporters in the west) claim that the attack is a response for Israel making Gaza "an open-air-prison" – it's inaccurate to say the least. Yes, Israel did enforce a blockade on Gaza, but it's crucial to understand why. It wasn't to make life miserable for Gazans. The main goal was to prevent weapons from getting to Hamas, a group that's openly committed to destroying Israel. And it's not like everything else was blocked – food, medicine, and other essentials were still getting through after security checks. Hamas makes their goals regarding Israel very clear in their covenant. It's not just about land or politics; it's about an ideology that doesn't recognize jews right to exist in this tiny piece of land. Sure, Israel isn't perfect. Mistakes happen in war, and they should be acknowledged and dealt with. But calling it genocide? That's a stretch. Genocide involves the deliberate, systematic attempt to wipe out a group of people. In all the conflicts, Israel has actually taken enormous efforts to minimize civilian casualties, like warning civilians of upcoming attacks, especially in this ongoing conflict. I'm curoious to get your perspective - how do you think a country should react to attacks from a group like Hamas? It's a tough question, right? What's the right balance between defending your citizens and ensuring minimal harm to the other side, especially when that side uses civilians as shields?
- prmph 3y ago
  [flagged]
- rasz 3y ago
  Like the 2022 ceasefire https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-houthis-after-the-yemeni-cease-fire/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-houthis-after-the-yem... ? Lets not stop there and do a ceasefire with russia by abandoning Ukraine.
- xorcist 3y ago
  This is nonsense. While it is true that they recently included the customary references to Satan, Israel and the USA in their communications, that is to be understood as allegiance to the shiites in Iran. It includes references to standard phrases the Mullahs always use in their communication. The conflict in Yemen is an old one, and one that the US has always indirectly played a part in, given their seemingly unwavering support of the Saudis. Every power player in the region has been a part of this conflict. It's why there still is civil war in Sudan(!). It's a conflict so complex that makes the Palestinian conflict look trivial in comparison.
qball 3y ago
>The Third Barbary War seems to be upon us. No- you need to go further back before you see the big picture. Much as in the ancient world (which the modern world order consists of in large part), this is a Romans vs. Parthians vs. Chinese thing. These actions are just the Parthians making access to the Silk Road harder, in the hopes that Consul Biden and the Senate and People of Rome (and the provinces they control) will stop supporting the king of Judea and his recent military invasion of the Parthian-allied settlements on his border. >Those shipping lanes are vital, and there is only so much disruption the international order will accept before putting a decisive end to the interference. I'll believe that as soon as the Chinese Emperor Xi commands his warships to sail out and fire their first salvos at the Parthian-supplied forces. The "international order" you think exists is literally just Rome and its provinces, and those provinces are currently busy supplying a civil war in the European Borderland (one the Romans were a major factor in creating the conditions for it to occur) and they barely contribute anything to their obligations in the North Adriatic Treaty Organization to begin with. They don't even have any legions to deploy (not that they could raise any in the first place) and won't be anywhere near decisive in a proper fight. So that just leaves the Romans themselves... who have been engaging in proxy military action (with the king of Arabia) to remove the Parthian proxies for the past 10 years or so with very little success. To be fair to Parthia, their main goal has always been to pull nearby provinces out of Roman orbit and into Parthia's- while Judea and Arabia might never enter the Parthian orbit unless physically conquered (organization of the Parthian-sympathetic states surrounding Judea has been a long goal of the Parthians; unfortunately for Parthia, their armies keep losing) the vassal states that depend heavily on goods traveling through the Silk Road might start to view the actions of the Judeans with disfavor. And sure, the Romans could always just attack the Parthian proxies directly- but the entire reason that Parthia can get away with this is because the Senate and People of Rome aren't actually interested in yet another desert war that costs quadrillions of denarii, and by committing to assisting the King of Arabia secure his southern flank they lock themselves out of defending a breakaway Chinese province (whose unique products Rome arguably values even more than the loyalty of its own provinces) should the Chinese attempt to capture it, as they've long been threatening to do.
mardifoufs 3y ago
Just think of them as sanctions. If you try to break any embargo, you will get hit with a missile on the face. That's how embargos usually work. And by international order, you mean "western order" right? Every sanction and embargo has the purpose of disrupting some sort of order. Try running a USN embargo or blockade, I'm not sure they would be more diplomatic about it than the Houthis. We are currently seeing a higher civilian death rate than we saw back in February 2022, yet it doesn't seem like a lot of people complained about disrupting international order when Russia was sanctioned. And they were well deserved sanctions ,it just turns out that it's not just the US or Europe that can care about civilian deaths. Especially since those countries don't necessarily seem to care a lot about non white civilian deaths, since absolutely 0 western country condemned Israel even when they put literal war criminals like Russia to shame in terms of sheer destruction and indiscriminate murder. When "the international community" (aka, the west) drops the ball on that regard and lets it happen for close to 4 months now, well what do they expect?
- prmph 3y ago
  > We are currently seeing a higher civilian death rate than we saw back in February 2022, yet it doesn't seem like a lot of people complained about disrupting international order when Russia was sanctioned. This is a false equivalence. Israel was attacked first, brutally. Russia was not attacked; theirs is a war of agression, pure and simple. It is clear that the fundamental cause of the Ukraine war is a desire by Putin and his ilk to restore the old soviet "empire". [1] Actually, that has been the cause of many wars down through the centuries. A former power, or a country that thinks it needs to play a more powerful role in world affairs, seeking (re)ascendancy. It happened with Germany and Japan in WW2, and it is happening with Russia now. But it seems people will believe anything but what the aggressors themselves clearly want. Do you know what the Muslim nations say among themselves, what their ultimate objective is? Without understanding that, it is impossible to place the Israeli-Arab conflict in proper perspective. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/25/putin-new-russian-empire-ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/25/putin-...
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
maxglute 3y ago
International order (includingg most US parnters) would rather eat single digit % increase in diverted shipping costs and MENA fuel costs AND have Houthis embargo Israel access to resources in red sea than deal with alternative of Houthis hitting Saudi energy infra and have energy prices spike double digits. There's a reason only USN + UK (who imports excess energy demands from US) are committing most of the hardware and doing all the interceptions and attacks, no one else - especially the international order - wants the stir the pot more for Israel. Of course US still has unilateral power to strike as please, but don't be surprised if Yemen missiles hit Saudi refineries if things escalate.
- nradov 3y ago
  The US and UK are pretty much the only countries which have the hardware to carry out interceptions and attacks. France is probably the only other country that has significant capability to project power in that region.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    China, who is a significant exporter to Europe. They have a very large base in Djibouti, directly across from Yemen and across town from the US/multi-national base at the airport. It's going to be interesting to see how "China, who wants to the authority of a world power" starts to run up against "China, who has the responsibilities of a world power."
    - nradov 3y ago
      China is still not in the same class. The ships that they can deploy to the region are weak in strike and area air defense capability. And they don't have much in the way of intelligence gathering that would be needed to employ those ships effectively. The most that the PLAN could manage would be to escort small convoys as a defensive measure.
      - ethbr1 3y ago
        Not sure if the PLAAF/N operates fixed-wing aircraft from the base, but they have a runway and hangars. https://www.google.com/maps/place//@11.5906054,43.0625938,16z https://www.google.com/maps/place//@11.5906054,43.0625938,16... And the PLAN has 25+ Type 052D destroyers w/ 64 VLS cells apiece [0]. And HQ-9 (reverse engineered Patriot SAMs) and ground attack capable YJ-18 cruise missiles in them. They absolutely have the capability, if they weren't busy bullying their regional neighbors in the South China Sea, who have vastly less capable warships (if any blue water). [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_052D_destroyer#Armament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_052D_destroyer#Armament
extractionmech 3y ago
[flagged]
fsagx 3y ago
The Saudis bombed Yemen for years with US weapons and targeting. A civil war has been been waged on and off for decades too. Dropping cruise missiles on rubble (which seems to be as far as the US/UK will escalate) will not have much effect.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  The US hasn't been in the business of economic destruction by air since the 1950s. Targeting key enabling (e.g. radar) or missile sites will absolutely have an effect. The Houthis have large but limited stocks of missiles, little ability to domestically manufacture, and difficulty importing more advanced models from Iran at scale. Moving interdiction left of launch is absolutely the right call, as it leverages weaknesses in Houthi air defense to more economically blunt their launches. Hell, the US/UK could just close the loop on foreign military aid and buy low-cost Ukrainian UAVs to attack Houthi targets.

hmmokidk 3y ago

Or they can just stop the Genocide.

tim333 3y ago
If there was one.

Cyph0n 3y ago

I concur with the flagged reply. The Houthis provided a solution on day 1: a ceasefire to end the genocide in Gaza. We will look back on the escalation of the conflict in Yemen as a strategic blunder. The Biden administration is digging itself deeper & deeper into a hole of its own making.

Papirola 3y ago
there's an even simpler solution to the war in gaza: have hamas release all the hostages.
- tmnvix 3y ago
  That won't stop the hostilities. Israel has two stated objectives: free the hostages and eliminate Hamas. The Israeli government is very unlikely to agree to a ceasefire in return for the hostages.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > won't stop the hostilities It would undermine a lot of Israel’s international support. At the end of the day, the Houthis aren’t in Gaza. Them raising random asks is orthogonal to the security threat they pose. Piracy is piracy.
  - prmph 3y ago
    Freeing the hostages AND giving up their weapons AND committing to not attack Israel again will end the war.
    - tim333 3y ago
      Even keeping their weapons but saying they'll try to live in peace with Israel would be a huge change. However it's part of Hamas's founding charter to destroy Israel and they aren't prepared to give it up, which then leads the the jolly situation we have now.
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      But gazans wont do that. They live in a prison camp, why would they ever commit to not attacking Israel again?
ekianjo 3y ago
> The Houthis provided a solution on day 1: a ceasefire to end the genocide in Gaza. Really? That seems to be funny for a group that is actively promoting another kind of genocide as part of their political manifesto: > The group's slogan reads as following: "God Is Great, Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movement If you had such neighbors they might just decide to kill you if you are not of their tribe. Not sure why people would whitewash such a group of extremists.
- richrichie 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Was there anything in particular that you felt wasn't accurate?
  - ekianjo 3y ago
    I agree with general skepticism about Wikipedia but in this case it's the official motto, so there's nothing much left for interpretation.
- fakedang 3y ago
  Because Westerners who support extremists are extremely stupid and self-damaging. Don't take my word for it, just listen to the UAE foreign minister's view on it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-dV4m43xZmY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-dV4m43xZmY The West things they know Islam, specifically radical Islam, better than we do, because they did two semesters worth of courses on Middle Eastern studies at their local university.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ekianjo 3y ago
bdhess 3y ago
Aka cede de facto authority over international waters to a buncha thugs whose official slogan includes “death to America, death to Israel”. No thanks.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  One thing that seems to be confirmed over and over is how people who come up with "just negotiate with them" seem to have a thinking process that does not span over a couple of days Funny how those people never seem to have any reservations to what hamas did, or any of the history of the past 20 yrs
  - jedimind 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - raverbashing 3y ago
      Not without reservations, but it's not like Israel's neighbors tolerated its existence > like the perpetual ethnic-cleansing Funny you ask that, makes me wonder what happened to the jews of the levantine and arab countries
      - Incipient 3y ago
        Fwiw, I both sides are so bloodstained that neither is the right choice. The absolute bare minimum of a position is "I'm taking the less bad side" but I think both are so awful neither honestly viable to support on a social level (political is different)
        jedimind 3y ago
        [flagged]
      - jedimind 3y ago
        > Not without reservations, but it's not like Israel's neighbors tolerated its existence Of course not, why on earth would anyone tolerate a bunch of invaders taking over their land? Zionists are really still making that argument as if it makes a lick of sense. No sane human would react otherwise. >Funny you ask that, makes me wonder what happened to the jews of the levantine and arab countries What came first? Exactly, Zionists started ethnic-cleansing Palestinians and IN RESPONSE their neighbors acted in kind, which by the way was exactly what Zionists wanted anyway. They wanted and needed as many jews in occupied Palestine as possible, so it was an emotional response from their neighbors that was a moral and strategic mistake.
ycombinete 3y ago
Geopolitical Chesterton’s Fence: if you can’t explain why the Houthis existed before 2023; then you shouldn’t give opinions on what motivates them now.
- Cyph0n 3y ago
  Oh, I have been aware of the Houthis and their agenda since their rise as part of the Yemeni revolution and subsequent civil war. Whether we like it or not, the Houthis are now a major player in Yemen. As for the current situation, my point was to clarify that the Houthis didn’t just randomly wake up in the morning one day and start attacking commercial ships for no reason. They communicated their reasoning and demands from the very start, and made it clear that this was their response to the ongoing genocide in Gaza. The US response was to simply ignore their demands and just bomb Yemen. This is a mistake. The Houthis (and Iran by proxy) are no strangers to conflict. Bombing Yemen will do nothing to stop attacks on commercial shipping - in fact, it probably will escalate them. Worse yet, starting a new conflict doesn’t help the negative reputation the US has built up over the past few months in the eyes of the so-called global south. Instead, this gives China an excellent opportunity to step in as a (actually) neutral power.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    Ansar Allah was targeting commercial shipping in the Red Sea long before the Gaza crisis.
    - Cyph0n 3y ago
      Well, assuming that’s true, it’s clearly happening at a different scale here. The global response is proof.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    Ah yes so nice of them to worry about Gaza, I'm sure it's all due to how pure of heart they are /s > Bombing Yemen will do nothing to stop attacks on commercial shipping This is bully logic. It can escalate the conflict, yes, but destruction of artillery and missiles works
Dalewyn 3y ago
[flagged]
- jedimind 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - prmph 3y ago
    [flagged]
- hackerlight 3y ago
  > If Palestine didn't want war they shouldn't have let Hamas initiate acts of war We should avoid collectivizing the motives and capabilities of heterogeneous individuals, many of them children, and many of them adults who do not support Hamas's atrocities but had no ability to stop them without being killed themselves. It's one thing to say that the civilian deaths in this war are unfortunate collateral damage, it's another thing to do away with the concept of collateral damage entirely and pretend that every single individual bears moral culpability for Hamas's actions, just for the crime of being born on the wrong side of the fence.
  - tety 3y ago
    It's tragic, but there was and is wide support of October 7 attacks in Gaza, as well there was wide participation of the civilian (non-organization aligned) population in the massacres, including looting, killing, kidnapping and probably rape. Furthermore, Hamas was elected by the population under popular vote, and it is a palestinian organization entrenched in every facet of civilian organizations and life, and strongly stems from palestinian cultural norms (e.g. islamism, martyrdom, etc) You cannot completely act as if Hamas is not the defacto government in Gaza, and in any war in history, especially urban warfare in civilian setting with non-uniformed combatants, you cannot truly hurt only the military apparatus without also hurting civilians. This is simply a fact of life. It is a Western trope going as far back as the Nazis to act as if governments have no representation of their citzenship, especially authocratic ones. Even to this day for example, the German government of 1933-1945 are called 'the nazis' rather than germans, as if they came from outer space, and returned to their planet on 1945, leaving none of their members in the Western/Eastern Germany governments.
tmnvix 3y ago
I may have missed it, but the failure of any western leaders to publicly acknowledge the Houthi's stated reasons for their actions (and by extension their demands) is conspicuous.
- tptacek 3y ago
  It conspicuously indicates that nobody takes their public statements seriously.
  - Cyph0n 3y ago
    Nobody = none of the so-called “unbiased” Western media outlets (more like government mouthpieces at this point).
    - tptacek 3y ago
      Yes, I'm referring to the sheeple. Sorry, we're the ones who vote.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  No one is taking their words seriously, just their actions.
hayst4ck 3y ago
[flagged]
Protostome 3y ago
Actually, there's no genocide happening in Gaza. Yes, there are way too many civilian casualties, which is awful. But here's the thing: Hamas often launches attacks from places where people live, putting those civilians in danger. They kind of use this as a tactic, because the more civilian casualties there are, the more pressure is on Israel to stop fighting. Now, about those tunnels in Gaza – they're everywhere, right? But Hamas doesn't let ordinary folks use them for safety. That's pretty different from Israel, where new apartments have had to include bunkers since the 90s, and you can find bomb shelters all over the place. So, the sad truth is, the high number of civilians dying in Gaza is mainly because of how Hamas operates, using its own people as a shield.
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Protostome 3y ago
    I get where you're coming from, But let's put things in perspective. First off, nobody's saying that the loss of innocent lives, especially children, isn't tragic. It's heartbreaking, and every life lost is a huge deal. But saying that Israel is intentionally targeting children and women oversimplifies and misrepresents the reality. You mentioned feeling ashamed, like back during the Iraq war, but consider this: have you ever been in the shoes of a country under constant threat from a radical militant group? Imagine if 1,200 of your citizens were attacked, with the clear intent of causing as much harm as possible. What would you expect your country to do? Most people would say: stop the threat, make sure it never happens again. Hamas (and many of its supporters in the west) claim that the attack is a response for Israel making Gaza "an open-air-prison" – it's inaccurate to say the least. Yes, Israel did enforce a blockade on Gaza, but it's crucial to understand why. It wasn't to make life miserable for Gazans. The main goal was to prevent weapons from getting to Hamas, a group that's openly committed to destroying Israel. And it's not like everything else was blocked – food, medicine, and other essentials were still getting through after security checks. Hamas makes their goals regarding Israel very clear in their covenant. It's not just about land or politics; it's about an ideology that doesn't recognize jews right to exist in this tiny piece of land. Sure, Israel isn't perfect. Mistakes happen in war, and they should be acknowledged and dealt with. But calling it genocide? That's a stretch. Genocide involves the deliberate, systematic attempt to wipe out a group of people. In all the conflicts, Israel has actually taken enormous efforts to minimize civilian casualties, like warning civilians of upcoming attacks, especially in this ongoing conflict. I'm curoious to get your perspective - how do you think a country should react to attacks from a group like Hamas? It's a tough question, right? What's the right balance between defending your citizens and ensuring minimal harm to the other side, especially when that side uses civilians as shields?
prmph 3y ago
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rasz 3y ago
Like the 2022 ceasefire https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-houthis-after-the-yemeni-cease-fire/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-houthis-after-the-yem... ? Lets not stop there and do a ceasefire with russia by abandoning Ukraine.
xorcist 3y ago
This is nonsense. While it is true that they recently included the customary references to Satan, Israel and the USA in their communications, that is to be understood as allegiance to the shiites in Iran. It includes references to standard phrases the Mullahs always use in their communication. The conflict in Yemen is an old one, and one that the US has always indirectly played a part in, given their seemingly unwavering support of the Saudis. Every power player in the region has been a part of this conflict. It's why there still is civil war in Sudan(!). It's a conflict so complex that makes the Palestinian conflict look trivial in comparison.

qball 3y ago

>The Third Barbary War seems to be upon us. No- you need to go further back before you see the big picture. Much as in the ancient world (which the modern world order consists of in large part), this is a Romans vs. Parthians vs. Chinese thing. These actions are just the Parthians making access to the Silk Road harder, in the hopes that Consul Biden and the Senate and People of Rome (and the provinces they control) will stop supporting the king of Judea and his recent military invasion of the Parthian-allied settlements on his border. >Those shipping lanes are vital, and there is only so much disruption the international order will accept before putting a decisive end to the interference. I'll believe that as soon as the Chinese Emperor Xi commands his warships to sail out and fire their first salvos at the Parthian-supplied forces. The "international order" you think exists is literally just Rome and its provinces, and those provinces are currently busy supplying a civil war in the European Borderland (one the Romans were a major factor in creating the conditions for it to occur) and they barely contribute anything to their obligations in the North Adriatic Treaty Organization to begin with. They don't even have any legions to deploy (not that they could raise any in the first place) and won't be anywhere near decisive in a proper fight. So that just leaves the Romans themselves... who have been engaging in proxy military action (with the king of Arabia) to remove the Parthian proxies for the past 10 years or so with very little success. To be fair to Parthia, their main goal has always been to pull nearby provinces out of Roman orbit and into Parthia's- while Judea and Arabia might never enter the Parthian orbit unless physically conquered (organization of the Parthian-sympathetic states surrounding Judea has been a long goal of the Parthians; unfortunately for Parthia, their armies keep losing) the vassal states that depend heavily on goods traveling through the Silk Road might start to view the actions of the Judeans with disfavor. And sure, the Romans could always just attack the Parthian proxies directly- but the entire reason that Parthia can get away with this is because the Senate and People of Rome aren't actually interested in yet another desert war that costs quadrillions of denarii, and by committing to assisting the King of Arabia secure his southern flank they lock themselves out of defending a breakaway Chinese province (whose unique products Rome arguably values even more than the loyalty of its own provinces) should the Chinese attempt to capture it, as they've long been threatening to do.

mardifoufs 3y ago

Just think of them as sanctions. If you try to break any embargo, you will get hit with a missile on the face. That's how embargos usually work. And by international order, you mean "western order" right? Every sanction and embargo has the purpose of disrupting some sort of order. Try running a USN embargo or blockade, I'm not sure they would be more diplomatic about it than the Houthis. We are currently seeing a higher civilian death rate than we saw back in February 2022, yet it doesn't seem like a lot of people complained about disrupting international order when Russia was sanctioned. And they were well deserved sanctions ,it just turns out that it's not just the US or Europe that can care about civilian deaths. Especially since those countries don't necessarily seem to care a lot about non white civilian deaths, since absolutely 0 western country condemned Israel even when they put literal war criminals like Russia to shame in terms of sheer destruction and indiscriminate murder. When "the international community" (aka, the west) drops the ball on that regard and lets it happen for close to 4 months now, well what do they expect?

prmph 3y ago
> We are currently seeing a higher civilian death rate than we saw back in February 2022, yet it doesn't seem like a lot of people complained about disrupting international order when Russia was sanctioned. This is a false equivalence. Israel was attacked first, brutally. Russia was not attacked; theirs is a war of agression, pure and simple. It is clear that the fundamental cause of the Ukraine war is a desire by Putin and his ilk to restore the old soviet "empire". [1] Actually, that has been the cause of many wars down through the centuries. A former power, or a country that thinks it needs to play a more powerful role in world affairs, seeking (re)ascendancy. It happened with Germany and Japan in WW2, and it is happening with Russia now. But it seems people will believe anything but what the aggressors themselves clearly want. Do you know what the Muslim nations say among themselves, what their ultimate objective is? Without understanding that, it is impossible to place the Israeli-Arab conflict in proper perspective. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/25/putin-new-russian-empire-ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/25/putin-...
- mardifoufs 3y ago

maxglute 3y ago

International order (includingg most US parnters) would rather eat single digit % increase in diverted shipping costs and MENA fuel costs AND have Houthis embargo Israel access to resources in red sea than deal with alternative of Houthis hitting Saudi energy infra and have energy prices spike double digits. There's a reason only USN + UK (who imports excess energy demands from US) are committing most of the hardware and doing all the interceptions and attacks, no one else - especially the international order - wants the stir the pot more for Israel. Of course US still has unilateral power to strike as please, but don't be surprised if Yemen missiles hit Saudi refineries if things escalate.

nradov 3y ago
The US and UK are pretty much the only countries which have the hardware to carry out interceptions and attacks. France is probably the only other country that has significant capability to project power in that region.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  China, who is a significant exporter to Europe. They have a very large base in Djibouti, directly across from Yemen and across town from the US/multi-national base at the airport. It's going to be interesting to see how "China, who wants to the authority of a world power" starts to run up against "China, who has the responsibilities of a world power."
  - nradov 3y ago
    China is still not in the same class. The ships that they can deploy to the region are weak in strike and area air defense capability. And they don't have much in the way of intelligence gathering that would be needed to employ those ships effectively. The most that the PLAN could manage would be to escort small convoys as a defensive measure.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      Not sure if the PLAAF/N operates fixed-wing aircraft from the base, but they have a runway and hangars. https://www.google.com/maps/place//@11.5906054,43.0625938,16z https://www.google.com/maps/place//@11.5906054,43.0625938,16... And the PLAN has 25+ Type 052D destroyers w/ 64 VLS cells apiece [0]. And HQ-9 (reverse engineered Patriot SAMs) and ground attack capable YJ-18 cruise missiles in them. They absolutely have the capability, if they weren't busy bullying their regional neighbors in the South China Sea, who have vastly less capable warships (if any blue water). [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_052D_destroyer#Armament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_052D_destroyer#Armament

extractionmech 3y ago

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fsagx 3y ago

The Saudis bombed Yemen for years with US weapons and targeting. A civil war has been been waged on and off for decades too. Dropping cruise missiles on rubble (which seems to be as far as the US/UK will escalate) will not have much effect.

ethbr1 3y ago
The US hasn't been in the business of economic destruction by air since the 1950s. Targeting key enabling (e.g. radar) or missile sites will absolutely have an effect. The Houthis have large but limited stocks of missiles, little ability to domestically manufacture, and difficulty importing more advanced models from Iran at scale. Moving interdiction left of launch is absolutely the right call, as it leverages weaknesses in Houthi air defense to more economically blunt their launches. Hell, the US/UK could just close the loop on foreign military aid and buy low-cost Ukrainian UAVs to attack Houthi targets.