4 ms·

> In Canada, a criminal record is not a record of conviction, it’s a record of charges and that’s why I can’t work now,” Barker said. “Potential employers never

> In Canada, a criminal record is not a record of conviction, it’s a record of charges and that’s why I can’t work now,” Barker said. “Potential employers never find out what the nature of it is, they just find out that I have a criminal arrest record.” Funny, I usually associate Canada with good policymaking but this is substantially worse than the US.

ttul 3y ago
What they’re referring to is the court records that show whether someone was ever put through any kind of criminal justice process. If someone is arrested and charged, that record is publicly accessible to anyone for a few dollars. If the charges go nowhere, the record of the arrest and charge remains on the public record forever. It is indeed an unfair system.
- mapreduce 3y ago
  It really is so unfair! Is it like this in other countries too? Like US, UK, Germany, etc.? I'd really like to know how this system works in other developed countries of the world.
  - fnimick 3y ago
    It is very much the same in the US. Some states and cities have implemented a so called "ban the box" law, but most of the country has not. I've filled out many background check, employment applications, rental application etc that will ask "have you ever been arrested or charged with a crime", and regardless of circumstance will deny you if you say yes. If you are found innocent, or charges dropped because they messed up the evidence etc, doesn't matter.
    - leros 3y ago
      In the US, as I understand it, you can go through a process (not free) to get your arrest record expunged and then you can legally answer no to that question. Still messed up but there is a path at least.
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    Well, not a developed country, but in Brazil the government can only disclose convictions (outside of the government, internally there are a few exceptions), only to the person or a security-related organization, and it's illegal to even ask for a record in a work related process unless it's about one of those security-related organizations (the Federal Police maintains a list of them). Also, the data stays there starting at the conviction and only up to the point the person is found innocent in another ruling or the penalty ends. But the one things that keeps surprising me about the other countries isn't any of that discrimination against minor misbehaving. It is that justice promoters so often see their roles on society as harassing suspects until they break down. This seems to be the norm, and it's completely ridiculous.
- _nqfy 3y ago
  [dead]
  - belval 3y ago
    > a person's record of charges that did not lead to a conviction is not publicly available, but rather requires an individual's consent. Unless I misunderstood isn't that almost the exact same thing though? When getting hired they will ask you to fill out some forms prior to your background check that explicitly give the permission to run a background check. I never tried to refuse but I doubt it would be welcomed.
    - _nqfy 3y ago
      It's still a problem for Barker, and I don't want at all to discount that his situation is unjust. However, the non-conviction records will not necessarily show up on his report. If the employer requests the base level of a background check, the records will not show up. If the employer instead requests a more in-depth check (a PIC), the records may or may not show up. Not all employers would request the more in-depth check. Barker is therefore not at a disadvantage for all jobs for a non-convicted charge, but it is completely unjust that he can potentially be at a disadvantage for a fair number of jobs. Barker deserves recourse and more awareness of his case. But at the same time, the potential impression that any Canadian resident that is charged-but-not-convicted will have a publicly-available record that bars them from work, is not a correct one.
  - mcv 3y ago
    Requiring consent doesn't make a difference when it's about employment. If you don't give consent, you don't get the job.
    - _nqfy 3y ago
      It's true that Barker is now disadvantaged for certain types of jobs for an accusation he was never convicted of, which is completely unjust. He deserves far better treatment. However, requiring consent means that the records are not publicly available, so he is not immediately disqualified when he applies. In addition, a company has to specifically request for a deeper background check for this to appear—the base level of a background check only includes convictions. No person in Canada who is charged yet not convicted is therefore barred from work, which is an impression made from Barker's quote and a previous comment. A more precise understanding of the system is important for advocacy to change it. It's more effective to argue for reforms related to Police Information Checks (such as for more transparency) to be specific, and this requires a specific awareness of how Canada's process for background checks works.
- papercrane 3y ago
  > If the charges go nowhere, the record of the arrest and charge remains on the public record forever. This isn't necessarily true. It's dumb that it's not automatic, but you can request in the destruction of non-conviction information.
  - pi-e-sigma 3y ago
    And they can deny the destruction of that non-conviction information without having to explain why. https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/managing-criminal-record https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/managing-criminal-record
belval 3y ago
> Canada > good policymaking As a Canadian, seems like we just have good PR.
- unsupp0rted 3y ago
  Canada has INCREDIBLE international PR. Perhaps better than any other OECD country, compared to its reality.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  You look almost European in design and you're in close proximity to a country everyone loves to hate. You absolutely glow by comparison. I gotta say, though, that every time I go up to Canada I'm struck by how much everything seems just like the US. If the US ever gets universal healthcare it'll be especially hard to tell the difference. Hell, we're even well on our way to having our own king!
noah_buddy 3y ago
I think that Canada is absolutely undeserving of this record and there have been a few recent stories that illustrate governmental ineptitude or even malice. This is the one that springs to mind: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65107912.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65107912.amp
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  Eh, I dont find these in-hindsight "reports" that compelling. The implication that if someone beats their wife we should be abke to stop them from committing a mass shooting seems incorrect.
  - noah_buddy 3y ago
    I think clearly a major failing to not immediately announce to the public that a mass shooter is driving a replica police car. That’s beyond even the other details that didn’t clue the government off that he was up to no good (like withdrawing half a million in cash from a bank account).
fnimick 3y ago
It absolutely works that way in the US. Lots of jobs, financial applications, housing rental applications etc ask if you have ever been charged with a crime - not convicted, only charged - and even if you are found innocent, or the charges dropped because it turns out their initial investigation was wrong etc - it closes most doors for you.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  Probably state dependent, do not think they can do that where I live.
  - fnimick 3y ago
    It is state and municipality dependent. https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/ban-the-box-state-by-state/ https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/ban-the-box-...
    - whimsicalism 3y ago
      fwiw that map covers a significant majority of Americans in states with some box restriction
      - fnimick 3y ago
        The map itself is wildly misleading. New York is colored in the map, for example, because four cities in the state have some sort of restriction on it (some only for government employees, too, so private companies can ask whatever they want)
lbhdc 3y ago
I used to work in heavy industry and did a lot of work in Canada (I am an American). Canada always had the worst security to go through because the same thing this guy is experiencing everyone crossing the boarder for work got the same thing from boarder security. Anyone who had been arrested would get held at customs for a few hours, and occasionally over night. Basically you would get interrogated by a boarder guard, and the boarder guards would complain that they don't convict people of crimes in the US while asking about 20 year old arrest records. I kind of assumed they were just terrible to foreigners coming in, but to do it to their own citizens is pretty awful.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  If you think Canadian border guards are bad, its because you've never seen how American border guards treat non-citizens. If you tried to enter the US with a criminal record, there is a VERY good chance that you would not be allowed in, and would be handed a 5-10 year ban. Most countries do not allow visa-less entry to convicted criminals. The fact that Canada let your co-workers in at all is at the discretion of the border guard. Canada is very clear about the steps that those with a criminal record need to go through prior to applying for entry at the border. It sounds like your coworkers showed up to the border without the necessary preparation and were allowed to enter at the officer's kindness/discretion in spite of their criminal pasts and lack of documentation. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/inadmissibility/overcome-criminal-convictions.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...
  - lbhdc 3y ago
    I had to shepard many South Americans and Europeans through American boarder security for this same job. I found Canadas process to be much more restrictive. They similarly handed out decade+ bans. We had a legal team prepping the paperwork for these trips, they had the correct paperwork.
    - dghlsakjg 3y ago
      Did the people entering the US from Europe/South America have criminal records? Part of the reason that it is harder for an American with a criminal record entering Canada is the fact that it is visa free. A convicted American at the Canadian border has likely not gone back and forth with immigration authorities, or had an interview at the embassy like a South American at the US border would. By the time a European or South American arrives at the border they have already submitted the paperwork to an embassy (or received an ESTA/visa waiver), and have been given permission. Without convincing proof that they are eligible to enter the USA, the airline won't even let them on the plane. The reality is that it is perfectly reasonable for a country to deny entry or investigate a convicted criminal before granting the privilege of entering the country. Doubly so when the purpose of entry is for work. As a non convict, I had to prove to Canada that I could support myself and would not be a burden on the medical or other social systems in addition to an FBI background check, and a variety of other paperwork before I was granted residency. It took upwards of a year for all that. By what reasoning should Canada prioritize or not investigate people that have, in the past, been a burden or danger to their society. Entry by non permanent residents or citizens is a privilege, and I think it is perfectly reasonable for a country to ensure that a convicted criminal won't pose a danger or burden.
newsclues 3y ago
Canada has terrible policy making.
dghlsakjg 3y ago
This information seems to be incorrect based on this https://stepstojustice.ca/questions/employment-and-work/can-employer-ask-me-if-i-have-police-record/ https://stepstojustice.ca/questions/employment-and-work/can-... and this https://certn.co/blog/criminal-record-check-alberta-your-faqs-answered/ https://certn.co/blog/criminal-record-check-alberta-your-faq... It seems like employers can only factor convictions, and they must justify why that conviction would be a factor in doing the job. What I can believe is that the RCMP would botch a case involving a native person. Just yesterday a bunch of video transcriptions were released of RCMP officers busting up a peaceful protest by native tribes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/rcmp-audio-wetsuweten-coastal-gaslink-1.7086861 https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/rcmp-audio-wetsuweten-coa... The officers referred to tribal members with face-paint honoring missing and murdered women as "orcs". In regards to arresting a mentally disabled man: "That big f--king ogre looking dude that is in those videos he is actually like autistic, then the f--king guys just beat the shit out of him and then he started crying. I felt bad for him, apparently the sergeant grabbed his balls and twisted, I guess. He was on the ground and everyone was just grabbing limbs. He didn't have a limb to grab so he just like grabs his balls like 'You done now? You done resisting?" Canada has decent policy, but we have, for some reason, imported policing culture from the states.
- jalapenos 3y ago
  Just based on reading the first link you posted, what you've said is incorrect, as it says they can ask for a "Criminal record and judicial matters check" which includes charges. If that's the case, "they can't" reject you just based on charges really means "they can as long as they don't say they did".
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    In my experience in working in Canada the records check is done after an offer is extended since it is not free, requires the consent of the person being checked, and takes several days at best, so it would be very obvious why the offer was retracted. I haven't said anything incorrect. I said that employers can only factor convictions, not that they can't get access to other records.
sandworm101 3y ago
>> Funny, I usually associate Canada with good policymaking but this is substantially worse than the US. Generally yes, but this is a specific law enforcement problem tied to Canada's unique police culture. Specifically, the way the RCMP hire and promote police officers has direct negative implications on "white collar" investigations in Canada. Without explaining all the details, the RCMP is effectively Canada's national police force but is also the local police force for most communities. Imagine it as if the FBI also did speeding tickets. All new cops start out doing something like traffic enforcement, often in small/northern communities well away from their homes. Only after years of "general duty" (aka traffic) can they move up to things like "electronic crime". Many good people are lost through this process. The average compsci or finance grad isn't going to want to spend years handing out speeding tickets before doing what they are actually trained to do. And the people who rise to the top of general street policing are often not the best people for long-term white collar investigations. https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/police-officer-careers https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/police-officer-careers "The RCMP is a national organization with diverse career opportunities like no other police service. Applicants may be asked to relocate anywhere within Canada where there is need of your services." "You may choose to continue in general duty policing, or you may have the desire and opportunity to train for and transfer to more specialized areas of policing." Want to investigate online fraud? Have a forensics or criminology degree? Ready to chase down people doing horrible things online? Well, here is your radar gun and ticket to the Yukon territory. Remember to bring a coat. Call us back in a few years and we may have something for you.
- BobaFloutist 3y ago
  Wow that sounds almost as bad as how we select our cops in the US. Almost.
rolph 3y ago
in the US as long as its not too bad [misdemenor] and you behave yourself, it goes away [depending on state]. in canada you are the sum total of every mistake you have made in your life, for your entire life.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

ttul 3y ago

What they’re referring to is the court records that show whether someone was ever put through any kind of criminal justice process. If someone is arrested and charged, that record is publicly accessible to anyone for a few dollars. If the charges go nowhere, the record of the arrest and charge remains on the public record forever. It is indeed an unfair system.

mapreduce 3y ago
It really is so unfair! Is it like this in other countries too? Like US, UK, Germany, etc.? I'd really like to know how this system works in other developed countries of the world.
- fnimick 3y ago
  It is very much the same in the US. Some states and cities have implemented a so called "ban the box" law, but most of the country has not. I've filled out many background check, employment applications, rental application etc that will ask "have you ever been arrested or charged with a crime", and regardless of circumstance will deny you if you say yes. If you are found innocent, or charges dropped because they messed up the evidence etc, doesn't matter.
  - leros 3y ago
    In the US, as I understand it, you can go through a process (not free) to get your arrest record expunged and then you can legally answer no to that question. Still messed up but there is a path at least.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  Well, not a developed country, but in Brazil the government can only disclose convictions (outside of the government, internally there are a few exceptions), only to the person or a security-related organization, and it's illegal to even ask for a record in a work related process unless it's about one of those security-related organizations (the Federal Police maintains a list of them). Also, the data stays there starting at the conviction and only up to the point the person is found innocent in another ruling or the penalty ends. But the one things that keeps surprising me about the other countries isn't any of that discrimination against minor misbehaving. It is that justice promoters so often see their roles on society as harassing suspects until they break down. This seems to be the norm, and it's completely ridiculous.
_nqfy 3y ago
[dead]
- belval 3y ago
  > a person's record of charges that did not lead to a conviction is not publicly available, but rather requires an individual's consent. Unless I misunderstood isn't that almost the exact same thing though? When getting hired they will ask you to fill out some forms prior to your background check that explicitly give the permission to run a background check. I never tried to refuse but I doubt it would be welcomed.
  - _nqfy 3y ago
    It's still a problem for Barker, and I don't want at all to discount that his situation is unjust. However, the non-conviction records will not necessarily show up on his report. If the employer requests the base level of a background check, the records will not show up. If the employer instead requests a more in-depth check (a PIC), the records may or may not show up. Not all employers would request the more in-depth check. Barker is therefore not at a disadvantage for all jobs for a non-convicted charge, but it is completely unjust that he can potentially be at a disadvantage for a fair number of jobs. Barker deserves recourse and more awareness of his case. But at the same time, the potential impression that any Canadian resident that is charged-but-not-convicted will have a publicly-available record that bars them from work, is not a correct one.
- mcv 3y ago
  Requiring consent doesn't make a difference when it's about employment. If you don't give consent, you don't get the job.
  - _nqfy 3y ago
    It's true that Barker is now disadvantaged for certain types of jobs for an accusation he was never convicted of, which is completely unjust. He deserves far better treatment. However, requiring consent means that the records are not publicly available, so he is not immediately disqualified when he applies. In addition, a company has to specifically request for a deeper background check for this to appear—the base level of a background check only includes convictions. No person in Canada who is charged yet not convicted is therefore barred from work, which is an impression made from Barker's quote and a previous comment. A more precise understanding of the system is important for advocacy to change it. It's more effective to argue for reforms related to Police Information Checks (such as for more transparency) to be specific, and this requires a specific awareness of how Canada's process for background checks works.
papercrane 3y ago
> If the charges go nowhere, the record of the arrest and charge remains on the public record forever. This isn't necessarily true. It's dumb that it's not automatic, but you can request in the destruction of non-conviction information.
- pi-e-sigma 3y ago
  And they can deny the destruction of that non-conviction information without having to explain why. https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/managing-criminal-record https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/managing-criminal-record

belval 3y ago

> Canada > good policymaking As a Canadian, seems like we just have good PR.

unsupp0rted 3y ago
Canada has INCREDIBLE international PR. Perhaps better than any other OECD country, compared to its reality.
rootusrootus 3y ago
You look almost European in design and you're in close proximity to a country everyone loves to hate. You absolutely glow by comparison. I gotta say, though, that every time I go up to Canada I'm struck by how much everything seems just like the US. If the US ever gets universal healthcare it'll be especially hard to tell the difference. Hell, we're even well on our way to having our own king!

noah_buddy 3y ago

I think that Canada is absolutely undeserving of this record and there have been a few recent stories that illustrate governmental ineptitude or even malice. This is the one that springs to mind: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65107912.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65107912.amp

whimsicalism 3y ago
Eh, I dont find these in-hindsight "reports" that compelling. The implication that if someone beats their wife we should be abke to stop them from committing a mass shooting seems incorrect.
- noah_buddy 3y ago
  I think clearly a major failing to not immediately announce to the public that a mass shooter is driving a replica police car. That’s beyond even the other details that didn’t clue the government off that he was up to no good (like withdrawing half a million in cash from a bank account).

fnimick 3y ago

It absolutely works that way in the US. Lots of jobs, financial applications, housing rental applications etc ask if you have ever been charged with a crime - not convicted, only charged - and even if you are found innocent, or the charges dropped because it turns out their initial investigation was wrong etc - it closes most doors for you.

whimsicalism 3y ago
Probably state dependent, do not think they can do that where I live.
- fnimick 3y ago
  It is state and municipality dependent. https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/ban-the-box-state-by-state/ https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/ban-the-box-...
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    fwiw that map covers a significant majority of Americans in states with some box restriction
    - fnimick 3y ago
      The map itself is wildly misleading. New York is colored in the map, for example, because four cities in the state have some sort of restriction on it (some only for government employees, too, so private companies can ask whatever they want)

lbhdc 3y ago

I used to work in heavy industry and did a lot of work in Canada (I am an American). Canada always had the worst security to go through because the same thing this guy is experiencing everyone crossing the boarder for work got the same thing from boarder security. Anyone who had been arrested would get held at customs for a few hours, and occasionally over night. Basically you would get interrogated by a boarder guard, and the boarder guards would complain that they don't convict people of crimes in the US while asking about 20 year old arrest records. I kind of assumed they were just terrible to foreigners coming in, but to do it to their own citizens is pretty awful.

dghlsakjg 3y ago
If you think Canadian border guards are bad, its because you've never seen how American border guards treat non-citizens. If you tried to enter the US with a criminal record, there is a VERY good chance that you would not be allowed in, and would be handed a 5-10 year ban. Most countries do not allow visa-less entry to convicted criminals. The fact that Canada let your co-workers in at all is at the discretion of the border guard. Canada is very clear about the steps that those with a criminal record need to go through prior to applying for entry at the border. It sounds like your coworkers showed up to the border without the necessary preparation and were allowed to enter at the officer's kindness/discretion in spite of their criminal pasts and lack of documentation. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/inadmissibility/overcome-criminal-convictions.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...
- lbhdc 3y ago
  I had to shepard many South Americans and Europeans through American boarder security for this same job. I found Canadas process to be much more restrictive. They similarly handed out decade+ bans. We had a legal team prepping the paperwork for these trips, they had the correct paperwork.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    Did the people entering the US from Europe/South America have criminal records? Part of the reason that it is harder for an American with a criminal record entering Canada is the fact that it is visa free. A convicted American at the Canadian border has likely not gone back and forth with immigration authorities, or had an interview at the embassy like a South American at the US border would. By the time a European or South American arrives at the border they have already submitted the paperwork to an embassy (or received an ESTA/visa waiver), and have been given permission. Without convincing proof that they are eligible to enter the USA, the airline won't even let them on the plane. The reality is that it is perfectly reasonable for a country to deny entry or investigate a convicted criminal before granting the privilege of entering the country. Doubly so when the purpose of entry is for work. As a non convict, I had to prove to Canada that I could support myself and would not be a burden on the medical or other social systems in addition to an FBI background check, and a variety of other paperwork before I was granted residency. It took upwards of a year for all that. By what reasoning should Canada prioritize or not investigate people that have, in the past, been a burden or danger to their society. Entry by non permanent residents or citizens is a privilege, and I think it is perfectly reasonable for a country to ensure that a convicted criminal won't pose a danger or burden.

newsclues 3y ago

Canada has terrible policy making.

dghlsakjg 3y ago

This information seems to be incorrect based on this https://stepstojustice.ca/questions/employment-and-work/can-employer-ask-me-if-i-have-police-record/ https://stepstojustice.ca/questions/employment-and-work/can-... and this https://certn.co/blog/criminal-record-check-alberta-your-faqs-answered/ https://certn.co/blog/criminal-record-check-alberta-your-faq... It seems like employers can only factor convictions, and they must justify why that conviction would be a factor in doing the job. What I can believe is that the RCMP would botch a case involving a native person. Just yesterday a bunch of video transcriptions were released of RCMP officers busting up a peaceful protest by native tribes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/rcmp-audio-wetsuweten-coastal-gaslink-1.7086861 https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/rcmp-audio-wetsuweten-coa... The officers referred to tribal members with face-paint honoring missing and murdered women as "orcs". In regards to arresting a mentally disabled man: "That big f--king ogre looking dude that is in those videos he is actually like autistic, then the f--king guys just beat the shit out of him and then he started crying. I felt bad for him, apparently the sergeant grabbed his balls and twisted, I guess. He was on the ground and everyone was just grabbing limbs. He didn't have a limb to grab so he just like grabs his balls like 'You done now? You done resisting?" Canada has decent policy, but we have, for some reason, imported policing culture from the states.

jalapenos 3y ago
Just based on reading the first link you posted, what you've said is incorrect, as it says they can ask for a "Criminal record and judicial matters check" which includes charges. If that's the case, "they can't" reject you just based on charges really means "they can as long as they don't say they did".
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  In my experience in working in Canada the records check is done after an offer is extended since it is not free, requires the consent of the person being checked, and takes several days at best, so it would be very obvious why the offer was retracted. I haven't said anything incorrect. I said that employers can only factor convictions, not that they can't get access to other records.

sandworm101 3y ago

>> Funny, I usually associate Canada with good policymaking but this is substantially worse than the US. Generally yes, but this is a specific law enforcement problem tied to Canada's unique police culture. Specifically, the way the RCMP hire and promote police officers has direct negative implications on "white collar" investigations in Canada. Without explaining all the details, the RCMP is effectively Canada's national police force but is also the local police force for most communities. Imagine it as if the FBI also did speeding tickets. All new cops start out doing something like traffic enforcement, often in small/northern communities well away from their homes. Only after years of "general duty" (aka traffic) can they move up to things like "electronic crime". Many good people are lost through this process. The average compsci or finance grad isn't going to want to spend years handing out speeding tickets before doing what they are actually trained to do. And the people who rise to the top of general street policing are often not the best people for long-term white collar investigations. https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/police-officer-careers https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/police-officer-careers "The RCMP is a national organization with diverse career opportunities like no other police service. Applicants may be asked to relocate anywhere within Canada where there is need of your services." "You may choose to continue in general duty policing, or you may have the desire and opportunity to train for and transfer to more specialized areas of policing." Want to investigate online fraud? Have a forensics or criminology degree? Ready to chase down people doing horrible things online? Well, here is your radar gun and ticket to the Yukon territory. Remember to bring a coat. Call us back in a few years and we may have something for you.

BobaFloutist 3y ago
Wow that sounds almost as bad as how we select our cops in the US. Almost.

rolph 3y ago

in the US as long as its not too bad [misdemenor] and you behave yourself, it goes away [depending on state]. in canada you are the sum total of every mistake you have made in your life, for your entire life.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]