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This is practically becoming the sign of whether a Bay Area city or suburb is affluent: whether they have a contract with Flock Safety. Before this SF purchase

by drewda 3y ago

This is practically becoming the sign of whether a Bay Area city or suburb is affluent: whether they have a contract with Flock Safety. Before this SF purchase, they've also sold to Los Altos Hills, Alameda, San Mateo, Palo Alto, Woodside, Novato, Piedmont... To tell, look for the small black cameras with solar panels. Or search for: https://www.google.com/search?q=flock+safety+transparency+portal https://www.google.com/search?q=flock+safety+transparency+po... I'm skeptical about the actual efficacy and the privacy tradeoffs. But this is apparently a good line of business for a YC investment..

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
As people (cops) become more expensive, the push to automation (cameras/drones) is going to increase. The sacrifice is privacy, since these things don't sleep and can be scaled, but at least it removes some human bias out of the loop.
- redblacktree 3y ago
  > at least it removes some human bias out of the loop There is some argument that these solutions calcify current biases.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    How? A cop is going to spend extra attention on minorities driving through white neighborhoods, a camera doesn't care.
    - antonyt 3y ago
      Some quick options come to mind: - unjust distribution of the cameras themselves - camera data is used for selective enforcement (alert a nearby office when minorities are driving through white neighborhoods) Tools are only as unbiased as the people deploying and using them.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Those both involve biases from people in the loop, not the devices themselves.
    - redblacktree 3y ago
      There are initial decisions to be made with the deployment of these automated policing tools. For example, this is from an EFF piece on predictive policiing[0]: "For instance, if police put majority Black neighborhoods under intense police scrutiny and surveillance, they will be more likely than in other neighborhoods to make stops and arrests according to minor quality of life infractions. Therefore, derivative maps purporting to show where future crimes might be committed will disproportionately weigh those neighborhoods already living under the weight of intense police presence. This can create a self-fulfilling prophecy that uses the supposed objectivity of math to legitimize racially biased police procedures." There is also a piece on other issues with license plate readers in particular.[1] I'd recommend the whole series if you're interested.[2] [0]: https://sls.eff.org/technologies/predictive-policing https://sls.eff.org/technologies/predictive-policing [1]: https://sls.eff.org/technologies/automated-license-plate-readers-alprs https://sls.eff.org/technologies/automated-license-plate-rea... [2]: https://sls.eff.org/ https://sls.eff.org/
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        The solution is easy in this case: just put them everywhere. The technology means that this scales, although where I live it is the richer cities that have deployed it (so Medina Washington has license plate readers all over...not a place you could call poor). But I can see how this is a "damned if we do, damned if we don't" kind of situation, after all poor neighborhoods complain that they don't have enough police coverage at the same time that they complain they have too much. I think this is just people not liking police in general. Here in Seattle, we complain about not enough police coverage in the north because they mostly deployed in the south, given that this is where much more violent crime is (while we mostly have just property crime). If you station more policing resources where more of the problems are, you are going to get this no matter what (and you get accusations of bias if you and if you don't).
    - iancmceachern 3y ago
      The models are trained on data, if that data is inherently biased, the model will be too.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > at least it removes some human bias out of the loop. I am very, very far from convinced that this is actually true. I suspect it just shifts which humans have their biases in the loop.
jorts 3y ago
Certainly was of no help for me when my truck was stolen a few weeks ago in Alameda.
doctoboggan 3y ago
I get the attraction of this technology for the police, but we definitely need to acknowledge the massive potential for misuse. I think I would be more OK with these license plate readers if they only scanned for and recorded plates when a warrant or other court approved order was issued. Allowing them to capture and record all license plates at all times seems like an overreach.
- ncr100 3y ago
  Yes. It's easy to screw up permissions, or to mis-code a request, and then cause misdirected attention and a violation of rights.
aworks 3y ago
Unsurprisingly, Atherton also has license plate cameras. They do have signs announcing this on incoming roads. https://www.almanacnews.com/news/2020/12/07/atherton-police-to-hold-meeting-on-recent-burglaries-license-plate-readers https://www.almanacnews.com/news/2020/12/07/atherton-police-... https://www.ci.atherton.ca.us/476/Surveillance-Technology-Information https://www.ci.atherton.ca.us/476/Surveillance-Technology-In...

by drewda 3y ago

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

As people (cops) become more expensive, the push to automation (cameras/drones) is going to increase. The sacrifice is privacy, since these things don't sleep and can be scaled, but at least it removes some human bias out of the loop.

redblacktree 3y ago
> at least it removes some human bias out of the loop There is some argument that these solutions calcify current biases.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  How? A cop is going to spend extra attention on minorities driving through white neighborhoods, a camera doesn't care.
  - antonyt 3y ago
    Some quick options come to mind: - unjust distribution of the cameras themselves - camera data is used for selective enforcement (alert a nearby office when minorities are driving through white neighborhoods) Tools are only as unbiased as the people deploying and using them.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Those both involve biases from people in the loop, not the devices themselves.
  - redblacktree 3y ago
    There are initial decisions to be made with the deployment of these automated policing tools. For example, this is from an EFF piece on predictive policiing[0]: "For instance, if police put majority Black neighborhoods under intense police scrutiny and surveillance, they will be more likely than in other neighborhoods to make stops and arrests according to minor quality of life infractions. Therefore, derivative maps purporting to show where future crimes might be committed will disproportionately weigh those neighborhoods already living under the weight of intense police presence. This can create a self-fulfilling prophecy that uses the supposed objectivity of math to legitimize racially biased police procedures." There is also a piece on other issues with license plate readers in particular.[1] I'd recommend the whole series if you're interested.[2] [0]: https://sls.eff.org/technologies/predictive-policing https://sls.eff.org/technologies/predictive-policing [1]: https://sls.eff.org/technologies/automated-license-plate-readers-alprs https://sls.eff.org/technologies/automated-license-plate-rea... [2]: https://sls.eff.org/ https://sls.eff.org/
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      The solution is easy in this case: just put them everywhere. The technology means that this scales, although where I live it is the richer cities that have deployed it (so Medina Washington has license plate readers all over...not a place you could call poor). But I can see how this is a "damned if we do, damned if we don't" kind of situation, after all poor neighborhoods complain that they don't have enough police coverage at the same time that they complain they have too much. I think this is just people not liking police in general. Here in Seattle, we complain about not enough police coverage in the north because they mostly deployed in the south, given that this is where much more violent crime is (while we mostly have just property crime). If you station more policing resources where more of the problems are, you are going to get this no matter what (and you get accusations of bias if you and if you don't).
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    The models are trained on data, if that data is inherently biased, the model will be too.
JohnFen 3y ago
> at least it removes some human bias out of the loop. I am very, very far from convinced that this is actually true. I suspect it just shifts which humans have their biases in the loop.

jorts 3y ago

Certainly was of no help for me when my truck was stolen a few weeks ago in Alameda.

doctoboggan 3y ago

I get the attraction of this technology for the police, but we definitely need to acknowledge the massive potential for misuse. I think I would be more OK with these license plate readers if they only scanned for and recorded plates when a warrant or other court approved order was issued. Allowing them to capture and record all license plates at all times seems like an overreach.

ncr100 3y ago
Yes. It's easy to screw up permissions, or to mis-code a request, and then cause misdirected attention and a violation of rights.

aworks 3y ago

Unsurprisingly, Atherton also has license plate cameras. They do have signs announcing this on incoming roads. https://www.almanacnews.com/news/2020/12/07/atherton-police-to-hold-meeting-on-recent-burglaries-license-plate-readers https://www.almanacnews.com/news/2020/12/07/atherton-police-... https://www.ci.atherton.ca.us/476/Surveillance-Technology-Information https://www.ci.atherton.ca.us/476/Surveillance-Technology-In...