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> PDF solved a problem for publishers and magazines, not for consumers needing to read properly typeset digital documents. we just got the bread crumbs and then

> PDF solved a problem for publishers and magazines, not for consumers needing to read properly typeset digital documents. we just got the bread crumbs and then they became standard I'm not quite sure what you are saying: PDFs of course provide "properly typeset digital documents" to consumers. Do you mean that consumers don't need or want those? I think they do - look how much effort is put into presentation in every format on every platform. I think, more importantly, PDF also provides consumers with a high-quality document they know they can read every easily, anywhere - any platform, any time, etc. - with just a click. What other format comes close? Imagine not having it - do you have the app to open the document? will it look like the original? when someone refers to the diagram on page 54, is the pagination the same for your copy/platform/etc.? Also there is annotation, long-term presrvation, authentication (signatures), etc. but I don't want to sound like a broken record.

abeyer 3y ago
Exactly. And epub will be an option for that just as soon as we have an html+css format that renders exactly the same on different clients and platforms when authored by someone who doesn't know what they're doing... so roughly never.
- pasc1878 3y ago
  But to read something e.g. a manual it should render differently on a phone or a big screen they are different sizes. If it renders the same then it is not fit for purpose that is reading on a screen. There are reasons to use pdf if the document must be the same on all devices but you need more than a plain pdf as you could edit a pdf to change 1s to 9s.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    You've narrowed the spec to that one requirement. There are other requirements too, that PDF meets very well. No technology is a universal answer. You want to understand the job and then find the right tool.
    - pasc1878 3y ago
      This is in response to people saying that PDFs do meet that requirement. I say they don't.
- xigoi 3y ago
  Why would you want it to render exactly the same? I want documents to render differently based on the screen width and my preferences.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > epub will be an option for that just as soon as we have an html+css format that renders exactly the same on different clients and platforms when authored by someone who doesn't know what they're doing... so roughly never. epub is already a very widely used option ?
  - abeyer 3y ago
    not for the point of this discussion which was "properly typeset digital documents"
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Sorry, I somehow misread that. Yes, I agree.
crabmusket 3y ago
> PDF also provides consumers with a high-quality document they know they can read every easily, anywhere - any platform, any time, etc. - with just a click Actually that's exactly what I feel like PDFs don't give me. When I come across a PDF report, I immediately know it'll be a massive pain to read on a phone, on my e-reader, etc. and I'll have to wait til I get on a desktop. And even once I do, I have little control over the reading experience (I often use reader mode for websites to strip out daft decisions by designers, or even just to normalise font sizes to something I'm comfortable with).
eviks 3y ago
You can't read it "easily on any platform" since it fails at basic text reflow for the width off your screen! There is nothing proper about this if we're talking digital Page 54 from the original is also trivial to preserve with any reader's pagination, it's just a numeric separator
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Good point about screen width. Personally, I don't have much problem with it - I just move the doc left/right as I read, but I know most people don't like it. (Come to think of it, formatting in columns might be a good idea for modern PDFs.) > Page 54 from the original is also trivial to preserve with any reader's pagination, it's just a numeric separator Pagination changes in different readers. That's why PDFs work so hard to be consistent.
  - eviks 3y ago
    > Pagination changes in different readers. That's what I said, but this doesn't matter much, you can have the original page 54 span for 4 reader's pages if the reader has a small screen with each of those 4 pages having the same number 54 so you can maintain the reference to the unmarked diagram
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      That solution doesn't sound great. Consider these situations: * User is on p.54, turns the page, and now they are on ... ? * User tells a friend: 'Look at the second paragraph of p.54'. Friend: 'I'm looking, I don't see it'. User: 'Oh, the other p.54' ...
      - eviks 3y ago
        Page turning would change two numbers, one of them would always increment by 1 But the same issues exist today with PDF since you have page count (more visible since it's usually permanently visible in the app) and page labels, which are often different and thus can confuse your friend (by the way, does 2nd paragraph count include the last line of the previous paragraph at the top or does it start count at first full paragraph?) (The better solution of more precise, e.g., per-paragraph, marks is, I think, also easier outside of PDF since PDFs don't retain text structure, only its visual position)

abeyer 3y ago

Exactly. And epub will be an option for that just as soon as we have an html+css format that renders exactly the same on different clients and platforms when authored by someone who doesn't know what they're doing... so roughly never.

pasc1878 3y ago
But to read something e.g. a manual it should render differently on a phone or a big screen they are different sizes. If it renders the same then it is not fit for purpose that is reading on a screen. There are reasons to use pdf if the document must be the same on all devices but you need more than a plain pdf as you could edit a pdf to change 1s to 9s.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  You've narrowed the spec to that one requirement. There are other requirements too, that PDF meets very well. No technology is a universal answer. You want to understand the job and then find the right tool.
  - pasc1878 3y ago
    This is in response to people saying that PDFs do meet that requirement. I say they don't.
xigoi 3y ago
Why would you want it to render exactly the same? I want documents to render differently based on the screen width and my preferences.
wolverine876 3y ago
> epub will be an option for that just as soon as we have an html+css format that renders exactly the same on different clients and platforms when authored by someone who doesn't know what they're doing... so roughly never. epub is already a very widely used option ?
- abeyer 3y ago
  not for the point of this discussion which was "properly typeset digital documents"
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Sorry, I somehow misread that. Yes, I agree.

crabmusket 3y ago

> PDF also provides consumers with a high-quality document they know they can read every easily, anywhere - any platform, any time, etc. - with just a click Actually that's exactly what I feel like PDFs don't give me. When I come across a PDF report, I immediately know it'll be a massive pain to read on a phone, on my e-reader, etc. and I'll have to wait til I get on a desktop. And even once I do, I have little control over the reading experience (I often use reader mode for websites to strip out daft decisions by designers, or even just to normalise font sizes to something I'm comfortable with).

eviks 3y ago

You can't read it "easily on any platform" since it fails at basic text reflow for the width off your screen! There is nothing proper about this if we're talking digital Page 54 from the original is also trivial to preserve with any reader's pagination, it's just a numeric separator

wolverine876 3y ago
Good point about screen width. Personally, I don't have much problem with it - I just move the doc left/right as I read, but I know most people don't like it. (Come to think of it, formatting in columns might be a good idea for modern PDFs.) > Page 54 from the original is also trivial to preserve with any reader's pagination, it's just a numeric separator Pagination changes in different readers. That's why PDFs work so hard to be consistent.
- eviks 3y ago
  > Pagination changes in different readers. That's what I said, but this doesn't matter much, you can have the original page 54 span for 4 reader's pages if the reader has a small screen with each of those 4 pages having the same number 54 so you can maintain the reference to the unmarked diagram
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    That solution doesn't sound great. Consider these situations: * User is on p.54, turns the page, and now they are on ... ? * User tells a friend: 'Look at the second paragraph of p.54'. Friend: 'I'm looking, I don't see it'. User: 'Oh, the other p.54' ...
    - eviks 3y ago
      Page turning would change two numbers, one of them would always increment by 1 But the same issues exist today with PDF since you have page count (more visible since it's usually permanently visible in the app) and page labels, which are often different and thus can confuse your friend (by the way, does 2nd paragraph count include the last line of the previous paragraph at the top or does it start count at first full paragraph?) (The better solution of more precise, e.g., per-paragraph, marks is, I think, also easier outside of PDF since PDFs don't retain text structure, only its visual position)