7 ms·

but wasn't that the point of pdf? we consumers of PDFs are the downstream users, not the target demographic. PDF solved a problem for publishers and magazines,

but wasn't that the point of pdf? we consumers of PDFs are the downstream users, not the target demographic. PDF solved a problem for publishers and magazines, not for consumers needing to read properly typeset digital documents. we just got the bread crumbs and then they became standard epub I believe are essentially what we as programmers would come up with, xml, html, and style sheets disclaimer: this is only partially informed speculation

lxgr 3y ago
ePub indeed sounds like the standards-based answer here, but there are simply no great readers for it that I know of that don’t insist on somehow making every opened doc part of some library, assuming it must clearly be a book.
- pasc1878 3y ago
  Firefox addin for ePub Part of calibre can be used as just a reader (it might not be packaged easily for the user but can be done from the command line) Adobe Digital Editions (this does also have a library and does try to make you add it when you stop reading) I suspect Fbreader might be OK - its earlier versions were but I have stopped using it after it added things. Plus the basic unzip the file and just look at the files with a web browser. These are just ones I have on my machine now.
- niutech 3y ago
  Have a look at Bene: https://nota-lang.github.io/bene/ https://nota-lang.github.io/bene/
- blooalien 3y ago
  Okular (the default standard document viewer on the KDE desktop) opens ePubs, PDFs, plaintext, and I'm sure other formats as well. It also has highlighting and annotation capabilities. I'm quite sure every other operating systems' GUI environment has at least one similar app. I know MacOS has a "Preview" app built in that opens a zillion file formats in a read-only viewer.
wolverine876 3y ago
> PDF solved a problem for publishers and magazines, not for consumers needing to read properly typeset digital documents. we just got the bread crumbs and then they became standard I'm not quite sure what you are saying: PDFs of course provide "properly typeset digital documents" to consumers. Do you mean that consumers don't need or want those? I think they do - look how much effort is put into presentation in every format on every platform. I think, more importantly, PDF also provides consumers with a high-quality document they know they can read every easily, anywhere - any platform, any time, etc. - with just a click. What other format comes close? Imagine not having it - do you have the app to open the document? will it look like the original? when someone refers to the diagram on page 54, is the pagination the same for your copy/platform/etc.? Also there is annotation, long-term presrvation, authentication (signatures), etc. but I don't want to sound like a broken record.
- abeyer 3y ago
  Exactly. And epub will be an option for that just as soon as we have an html+css format that renders exactly the same on different clients and platforms when authored by someone who doesn't know what they're doing... so roughly never.
  - pasc1878 3y ago
    But to read something e.g. a manual it should render differently on a phone or a big screen they are different sizes. If it renders the same then it is not fit for purpose that is reading on a screen. There are reasons to use pdf if the document must be the same on all devices but you need more than a plain pdf as you could edit a pdf to change 1s to 9s.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      You've narrowed the spec to that one requirement. There are other requirements too, that PDF meets very well. No technology is a universal answer. You want to understand the job and then find the right tool.

lxgr 3y ago

ePub indeed sounds like the standards-based answer here, but there are simply no great readers for it that I know of that don’t insist on somehow making every opened doc part of some library, assuming it must clearly be a book.

pasc1878 3y ago
Firefox addin for ePub Part of calibre can be used as just a reader (it might not be packaged easily for the user but can be done from the command line) Adobe Digital Editions (this does also have a library and does try to make you add it when you stop reading) I suspect Fbreader might be OK - its earlier versions were but I have stopped using it after it added things. Plus the basic unzip the file and just look at the files with a web browser. These are just ones I have on my machine now.
niutech 3y ago
Have a look at Bene: https://nota-lang.github.io/bene/ https://nota-lang.github.io/bene/
blooalien 3y ago
Okular (the default standard document viewer on the KDE desktop) opens ePubs, PDFs, plaintext, and I'm sure other formats as well. It also has highlighting and annotation capabilities. I'm quite sure every other operating systems' GUI environment has at least one similar app. I know MacOS has a "Preview" app built in that opens a zillion file formats in a read-only viewer.

wolverine876 3y ago

> PDF solved a problem for publishers and magazines, not for consumers needing to read properly typeset digital documents. we just got the bread crumbs and then they became standard I'm not quite sure what you are saying: PDFs of course provide "properly typeset digital documents" to consumers. Do you mean that consumers don't need or want those? I think they do - look how much effort is put into presentation in every format on every platform. I think, more importantly, PDF also provides consumers with a high-quality document they know they can read every easily, anywhere - any platform, any time, etc. - with just a click. What other format comes close? Imagine not having it - do you have the app to open the document? will it look like the original? when someone refers to the diagram on page 54, is the pagination the same for your copy/platform/etc.? Also there is annotation, long-term presrvation, authentication (signatures), etc. but I don't want to sound like a broken record.

abeyer 3y ago
Exactly. And epub will be an option for that just as soon as we have an html+css format that renders exactly the same on different clients and platforms when authored by someone who doesn't know what they're doing... so roughly never.
- pasc1878 3y ago
  But to read something e.g. a manual it should render differently on a phone or a big screen they are different sizes. If it renders the same then it is not fit for purpose that is reading on a screen. There are reasons to use pdf if the document must be the same on all devices but you need more than a plain pdf as you could edit a pdf to change 1s to 9s.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    You've narrowed the spec to that one requirement. There are other requirements too, that PDF meets very well. No technology is a universal answer. You want to understand the job and then find the right tool.