6 ms·

I get the argument, but it falls flat for me. Consoles are basically appliances with a primarily singular purpose: video games. Smart phones, in my opinion, are

I get the argument, but it falls flat for me. Consoles are basically appliances with a primarily singular purpose: video games. Smart phones, in my opinion, are general purpose computers that should be treated differently. Games are a small subset of what people use smart phones for.

lolinder 3y ago
I agree that smart phones should be general purpose computers, but that's why I use Android. iPhones are explicitly designed to not be general purpose computers, and that's part of the appeal for a lot of people.
- EMIRELADERO 3y ago
  The only criteria that should be a controlling factor for whether something is a "general purpose computer" or not, or rather, which amount of control end-users should have over it, is the device's raw computing power. Anything else is prone to abuse and is anti-consumer.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    If that law were old enough, it'd probably cover most modern toasters.
    - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
      Good.
      - thfuran 3y ago
        A toaster is obviously not a general purpose computing device. It's a device for making toast. A law regarding computing devices that treats it the same as a desktop PC probably won't handle either ideally.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    My wife doesn't want a general purpose computer in her pocket. She wants to be able to download and install an app with near-complete confidence that it won't steal her credit card. That desire is at odds with having a general purpose computing device. This is why she (and millions like her) chose an iPhone. Are you seriously saying that Apple providing that as an option is anti-consumer?
    - akaralar 3y ago
      > Are you seriously saying that Apple providing that as an option is anti-consumer? I think Apple not providing the other option is anti-consumer. It can be as on the macs, where you have SIP and you can disable it if you so wish, although it takes some effort and is not straightforward. The phone can have 2 modes, a safe mode and an unsafe mode, and it's up to people to choose which mode they want to operate in. So your wife still has the option to have the non-general purpose computer in her pocket, and others can have it as a general purpose computer.
      - lolinder 3y ago
        Why should Apple be obligated to serve two product categories? I have a phone that serves the role of general purpose computer just fine. I run mostly open source apps and even have a real terminal. It's just not an Apple phone.
    - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
      > This is why she (and millions like her) chose an iPhone. Are you seriously saying that Apple providing that as an option is anti-consumer? There has to be a way for the physical owner to have full control over the device. It's not even a matter of inmediate benefit, but rather good consumer/human rights policy. Much like the right to privacy, data control and GDPR, it didn't matter that many services relied on tracking-based ad revenue to survive, the user's right to privacy superseded that, and so the law was passed. This is somewhat the same principle. The general "digital right" to control, or to at least have the same degree of control as the manufacturer (for cases where not even they can control it fully after it comes out of the factory), is becoming an increasingly important thing with every passing day. It's no longer only about taste, but about public policy.
askonomm 3y ago
I, and a lot of other people, buy iPhones specifically because they are not Androids - it's hard to break them, install something horrible, etc. It's also why I recommend iPhones to older folk, like my mom, and from what I can tell, the need for me to help them out has decreased a ton since they stopped using Androids. So why are you pushing for everything to have to be a general purpose computer? Why can't there be one phone maker that caters to those who don't want something like that? Why can't you just use Android, which is that? I just find it incredibly unfair that everything has to be the same for some odd reason for people who keep pushing for these things.
- yowzadave 3y ago
  I feel like this "console" vs. "general computer" distinction is something Apple invented for the sake of their legal argument, and people are just accepting it as a thing. There's no reason why you can't have a console that allows sideloading. In fact, I have one: the Playdate. It has an on-device app store, but if I want I can also install any app manually. Most users who have a Playdate will only ever use the app store--they will get a curated set of apps, and every game purchase will have a cut taken by Playdate. It's sticky because it's the most convenient, and it's already on the device. This is the "safe" experience that the average user wants. But if you want to do your own thing and install some other app you found on the internet, you can! You can also run your own apps that you write!
- rchaud 3y ago
  > I, and a lot of other people, buy iPhones specifically because they are not Androids - it's hard to break them, install something horrible, etc. Sounds like those Mac v PC ads from 20 years ago. Do you think Android users are constantly getting viruses on their phones and having their bank accounts drained? As the NSO spyware has proven, if someone wants to break your phone, they can. Apple's 30% protection racket won't be able to intervene.
  - askonomm 3y ago
    I don't think or care about any of this. But my anecdotal evidence of seeing my elderly family members requiring a lot less help to clean their phones from unwanted spamware/adware that is crippling the device performance has gone down noticeably since the move from Android to iPhone. And I care a lot about that. All that power of Android is great for the Hacker News crowd, not so great for regular people who might not be very tech savvy.
forbiddenvoid 3y ago
I think this is becoming increasingly less true. The primary media center in our home is an XBox Series X. We use it for games, movies, television, youtube, and music. It gets much more use playing videos and music than it does running games these days.
api 3y ago
If I can’t install any software I want on it it is not a general purpose computer. I’ve always compared phones more to consoles. Phones and iOS tablets won’t be general purpose computers until I can easily side load and unlock root.
musicale 3y ago
> Games are a small subset of what people use smart phones for. True, but they are also 70% of Apple's app store revenue. Hence Gruber's suggestion of separate commissions for games vs. other apps.

lolinder 3y ago

I agree that smart phones should be general purpose computers, but that's why I use Android. iPhones are explicitly designed to not be general purpose computers, and that's part of the appeal for a lot of people.

EMIRELADERO 3y ago
The only criteria that should be a controlling factor for whether something is a "general purpose computer" or not, or rather, which amount of control end-users should have over it, is the device's raw computing power. Anything else is prone to abuse and is anti-consumer.
- thfuran 3y ago
  If that law were old enough, it'd probably cover most modern toasters.
  - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
    Good.
    - thfuran 3y ago
      A toaster is obviously not a general purpose computing device. It's a device for making toast. A law regarding computing devices that treats it the same as a desktop PC probably won't handle either ideally.
- lolinder 3y ago
  My wife doesn't want a general purpose computer in her pocket. She wants to be able to download and install an app with near-complete confidence that it won't steal her credit card. That desire is at odds with having a general purpose computing device. This is why she (and millions like her) chose an iPhone. Are you seriously saying that Apple providing that as an option is anti-consumer?
  - akaralar 3y ago
    > Are you seriously saying that Apple providing that as an option is anti-consumer? I think Apple not providing the other option is anti-consumer. It can be as on the macs, where you have SIP and you can disable it if you so wish, although it takes some effort and is not straightforward. The phone can have 2 modes, a safe mode and an unsafe mode, and it's up to people to choose which mode they want to operate in. So your wife still has the option to have the non-general purpose computer in her pocket, and others can have it as a general purpose computer.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      Why should Apple be obligated to serve two product categories? I have a phone that serves the role of general purpose computer just fine. I run mostly open source apps and even have a real terminal. It's just not an Apple phone.
  - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
    > This is why she (and millions like her) chose an iPhone. Are you seriously saying that Apple providing that as an option is anti-consumer? There has to be a way for the physical owner to have full control over the device. It's not even a matter of inmediate benefit, but rather good consumer/human rights policy. Much like the right to privacy, data control and GDPR, it didn't matter that many services relied on tracking-based ad revenue to survive, the user's right to privacy superseded that, and so the law was passed. This is somewhat the same principle. The general "digital right" to control, or to at least have the same degree of control as the manufacturer (for cases where not even they can control it fully after it comes out of the factory), is becoming an increasingly important thing with every passing day. It's no longer only about taste, but about public policy.

askonomm 3y ago

I, and a lot of other people, buy iPhones specifically because they are not Androids - it's hard to break them, install something horrible, etc. It's also why I recommend iPhones to older folk, like my mom, and from what I can tell, the need for me to help them out has decreased a ton since they stopped using Androids. So why are you pushing for everything to have to be a general purpose computer? Why can't there be one phone maker that caters to those who don't want something like that? Why can't you just use Android, which is that? I just find it incredibly unfair that everything has to be the same for some odd reason for people who keep pushing for these things.

yowzadave 3y ago
I feel like this "console" vs. "general computer" distinction is something Apple invented for the sake of their legal argument, and people are just accepting it as a thing. There's no reason why you can't have a console that allows sideloading. In fact, I have one: the Playdate. It has an on-device app store, but if I want I can also install any app manually. Most users who have a Playdate will only ever use the app store--they will get a curated set of apps, and every game purchase will have a cut taken by Playdate. It's sticky because it's the most convenient, and it's already on the device. This is the "safe" experience that the average user wants. But if you want to do your own thing and install some other app you found on the internet, you can! You can also run your own apps that you write!
rchaud 3y ago
> I, and a lot of other people, buy iPhones specifically because they are not Androids - it's hard to break them, install something horrible, etc. Sounds like those Mac v PC ads from 20 years ago. Do you think Android users are constantly getting viruses on their phones and having their bank accounts drained? As the NSO spyware has proven, if someone wants to break your phone, they can. Apple's 30% protection racket won't be able to intervene.
- askonomm 3y ago
  I don't think or care about any of this. But my anecdotal evidence of seeing my elderly family members requiring a lot less help to clean their phones from unwanted spamware/adware that is crippling the device performance has gone down noticeably since the move from Android to iPhone. And I care a lot about that. All that power of Android is great for the Hacker News crowd, not so great for regular people who might not be very tech savvy.

forbiddenvoid 3y ago

I think this is becoming increasingly less true. The primary media center in our home is an XBox Series X. We use it for games, movies, television, youtube, and music. It gets much more use playing videos and music than it does running games these days.

api 3y ago

If I can’t install any software I want on it it is not a general purpose computer. I’ve always compared phones more to consoles. Phones and iOS tablets won’t be general purpose computers until I can easily side load and unlock root.

musicale 3y ago

> Games are a small subset of what people use smart phones for. True, but they are also 70% of Apple's app store revenue. Hence Gruber's suggestion of separate commissions for games vs. other apps.