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The Mating Psychology of Incels – The Journal of Sex Research
- jelavich 3y agoSomeone head to 4chan and let themknow
- ProllyInfamous 3y ago"Maybe if I'm nice to her, she'll touch it." —Bill Burr
- kfrzcode 3y ago> Targeted for interventions Someone needs to brush up on their ho3_m4th https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4aMiAesXjE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4aMiAesXjE
- picadores 3y agoWell, they are the remnants of a society, were you could still trade in your works worth for "love" or at least a "dont break the chain" genetic future in the shape of a "family". And now this contract is up, they want to burn the whole thing down.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> now this contract is up The paper’s point is it’s an imagined contract. Being a somewhat-attractive, middlingly-wealthy man child was never a path to reproduction.
- sparrowInHand 3y agoIt was for the whole history of small-town, shop-owner, working sunup to sundown, what have manchilds todo with that?
- geraldhh 3y agothis. what has changed is the percentage of ppl living in big metropolitan regions where competition is higher and interactions plentiful and hence shallow making it more difficult to bond.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> was for the whole history of small-town, shop-owner, working sunup to sundown, what have manchilds todo with that? Small-town shop owner working sunup to sundown isn't a manchild, they're a hard-working professional. To my impression, this doesn't describe incels. Take their personality a few centuries back and you have the decent-looking but insufferable child whose parents can't merely be somewhat wealthy to overcome his misgivings. Part of the problem is "the 1960s," a cultural waypoint for America, "were an exceptional period with respect to marriage behavior" [1]. In fact, between 1870 and 1960, we were at much higher fractions of the 45 to 54 age bracket of men who had never been married. Selection pressure was higher a century ago, not lower. [1] https://users.pop.umn.edu/~ruggl001/Articles/Fitch_and_Ruggles.pdf https://users.pop.umn.edu/~ruggl001/Articles/Fitch_and_Ruggl...
- pydry 3y agoIt definitely was. Try reading some Jane Austen.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> It definitely was. Try reading some Jane Austen Jane Austen's men were rich bachelors, often coming to the country from London, often written as charming for being open to women of a lower (upper class) standing. They were the opposite of incels.
- pydry 3y ago>Jane Austen's men were rich bachelors, often coming to the country from London, often written as charming Yes and often not rich and often not charming. One of the key points of her writing was to contrast these characters in a context where women had very high stakes (not marrying did not end well for most women, including her) and limited options.
- the_only_law 3y agoUnfortunately, this site is testament to the opposite.
- nox101 3y agoTL;DR Incels over estimate how much attractiveness and money matters and it might be nice to educate them Also: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-roman...
- rootlocus 3y agoYou've just summarized the abstract, which summarizes the entire article and barely exceeds a few sentences.
- pydry 3y agoOverestimating how much attractiveness matters to the answers people give in surveys or overestimating how much attractiveness matters factors in to behavior on dating apps?
- kiba 3y agoWhen you're on dating apps, you're competing with million of other men. Before dating apps, you're competing with maybe only a pool of a few hundred. Also, your dating profile is completely impersonal. It list your hobbies, your like, dislike, etc. All these pale in comparison to just meeting people in person and maybe making social connections.
- 29athrowaway 3y agoIncels are low on extraversion, high on neuroticism, not open to experience, low on agreeableness, low on conscientiousness. If you had those traits during a winter in 10,000 BC, from the moment you started complaining about the cold, and being pessimistic about the upcoming mammoth hunt, and such... the tribe would not be as tolerant as our modern society.
- Mutttttioi 3y agoOr they are just Man who never had friends or family telling them when they did something weird, and instead of starting to selfreflect, they got frustrated and angry and are now stuck in a circle. Without being high on neuroticism etc. And than they became stuck
- danmur 3y agoOr they have borderline personality disorder and don't realise they're manipulating and hurting people :/ EDIT: So just to clarify since I think there's a disconnect between what I was saying and what people are hearing, I was talking about myself here. And I am a dude. People are complicated and our brains can go into a tailspin for lots of reasons. Like k8s only less complex and with less YAML.
- newsclues 3y agoDo you assume the same of women who don’t have sex?
- danmur 3y agoI assume that some women who don't have sex suffer from BPD, yes. I can't recall ever thinking that about someone on an individual basis.
- newsclues 3y agoDo you think there are also BPD women who do have sex and manipulate others and cause harm? Do you think there is a difference between men and women in these situations?
- hoseja 3y ago>Modern humans descend from an unbroken evolutionary chain of ancestors who successfully solved these problems. Classic suifuel in the second sentence already.
- CobrastanJorji 3y agoIt's also a meaningless tautology. By definition, all of your ancestors reproduced successfully. However, it's also the case that every generation has a large number of individuals who don't reproduce. This is often a successful strategy for a species. It's not at all the case that one person is a failure because their ancestors reproduced and they didn't.
- fnordsensei 3y agoIt gets into nature vs nurture. My aunt and uncle couldn’t have kids, but they adopted a boy. He has their values, general kindness, and their sense of humor. For some value of reproduction, I think they’ve done so successfully.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- quickthrower2 3y agoThe gene is selfish, not the human, after all.
- quickthrower2 3y ago[flagged]
- thrwawaythygyh 3y agowhy does this place turn so cruel and kick their fellow men when they're down? if this was an issue that affected the other gender, the tone here would be a lot different.
- phoe-krk 3y agoHighlighting errors and mistakes in other men's thinking in order to try and reduce the suffering they inflict on themselves is one of the greatest gifts that a fellow man can give. Sure, it's a kick and therefore it hurts, but it's a kick in the right direction.
- thrwawaythygyh 3y agoseems less like good-faith advice and more like schadenfreude
- MichaelZuo 3y agoMaybe some fraction of folks giving tough love are doing it primarily for the 'schadenfreude' value, but it doesn't seem likely to be all that many. In fact I don't think I've ever seen that happen in real life. It happens on the internet because it's easier for losers to pretend to be virtuous, better, and so on. Which might lead to that perception.
- antisthenes 3y ago> Highlighting errors and mistakes in other men's thinking in order to try and reduce the suffering they inflict on themselves is one of the greatest gifts that a fellow man can give. No, it's not. If you applied this logic, you would just go around telling fat people that they're fat. Do you think that's actually helpful and "the greatest gift" you can give to a fellow man? Honestly, what a delusional and out of touch response. I pity you if that's what your childhood role models taught you.
- phoe-krk 3y ago
- zozbot234 3y agoLook, it's even simpler than that. Incels hate women, that's their whole schtick. Why would any self-respecting woman want to be with someone who literally hates said woman's gender? Maybe you could "educate" incels on being less hateful, and their romantic prospects might improve.
- water9 3y agoPeople have a tendency to irrationally hate what they don’t understand. Modern society as scripted by Disney teaches men all the wrong moves to make with women.
- kiba 3y agoI don't know what Disney scripted. Throw out the dating app and meet people in the real. It doesn't matter if they're dating prospects or not. Rinse, repeat. It's silly to expanding your potential dating option to million of complete strangers. Start building a network of maybe 300-400 individuals, some of which are potential partners. Some will simply be friends, teammates, etc. Remember, dating is not an interview or a resume. You are not showing off how good you are with a bunch of impersonal details online like what school you went to, your favorites hobbies etc. Nobody cares about that. Meet people and see how they vibes with you.
- rob74 3y ago> meet people in the real This! In my experience, doing this helps against other phobias (xenophobia, homophobia etc.) as well...
- water9 3y agodo you really think it’s as simple as this? It’s hard to meet people that aren’t attracted to you. If you give your average Incel, this type of advice, send them off to a bar and tell them to go make friends with a girl they’re attracted to, you’re setting them up for a world of Hurt because that is an incredibly naïve advice to give
- dekken_ 3y agoPlease stop using that word, no one but the person in question gets to decide if they are celebate or not, it's really disingenuous, and just indicates you don't understand the notion of consent.
- phoe-krk 3y agoThey do decide to not be celibate. They also get to decide that it is involuntary, and to identify with the term "involuntary celibate", shortened to "incel". The study explicitly says: > ...we compared a sample (n = 151) of self-identified male incels...
- dekken_ 3y ago> They also get to decide that it is involuntary, That doesn't make sense, then it's voluntary.
- rob74 3y agoThe decision to not be celibate requires (at least) one more person who agrees with that decision. The decision to be celibate only requires yourself. That's the root of the problem...
- DonHopkins 3y agoBut the decision to be misogynistic is independent of the decision to be celibate or not. And voluntary misogyny is the defining characteristic of the term "incel". There are many non-misogynistic non-inceles who want to get laid but can't for other reasons than choosing to hate women.
- newsclues 3y agoIn this thread: some blatant prejudice and hate towards men.
- DonHopkins 3y ago[flagged]
- newsclues 3y agoAnd there it is, completely uncalled for. It’s unfortunate that I can predict the hate that people will post. Who forced you to be this way or did you choose that path?
- pizza234 3y agoThere's surprisingly little research on relationship disorders, in particular, in the area of dating. If Gilmartin (who I think was the first to research the involutary celibate more formally) were more rigorous and/or if psychologists would have have extracted the good points and developed them, today we'd likely have a better (or at least, better prepared) society. Sadly, Gilmartin is partially reponsible for turning to the topic from something taboo-ish into a laughing stock. It also seems that some people here don't know - modern acception of "incel" is, confusingly, more specific than "involuntary celibates"; it refers to an online, tendentially misogynistic, subculture of involuntary celibates. If some readers here identify themselves with people with serious relationship disorders, seek a therapist - this disorder can be impossible to heal without professional services.
- atoav 3y ago> If some readers here identify themselves with people with serious relationship disorders, do yourself a favor, and see a therapist. This disorder can be impossible to heal without professional services. I think this is good advice. If you feel part of the incel subculture, please take a moment to reflect what attracts you to these people and their explainations. Could it be that they offer you a story within which you don't have to question your own role in your misery? This lack of taking responsibility for ones own way in life is by the way one of the main reasons people tend to look down on incels. The problem isn't you not finding a relationship. The problem is how you explain away your own responsibility within that. And it is the natural, lazy thing to fall for this: After all it feels more comfortable if you are not at fault, but everybody else. The only problem with this is, that it isn't the truth and it doesn't bring you any closer to finding joy in life. Many incels may feel that they don't need therapy, because they have their incel peers. But that is really, really problematic. This is why therapy is a good advice. If you are part of such a hermetic group, getting outside help that gets to know you closer is a really good way of finding a way out. But the first step is admiting you have a problem and that the other people with the same problem are only giving you excuses to continue down that path, not solutions to get out of it.
- pydry 3y ago
- sublinear 3y ago> Incels will overestimate women’s minimum standards for mate-preferences. They will also overemphasize the importance of physical attractiveness and financial prospects and under emphasize the importance of kindness, intelligence, and humor I feel like this is the most obvious answer and most in line with everyday experience. There are so many men who are victims of a society that tells them to work hard. With enough hard work any man can look good and make money. "Kindness, intelligence, and humor" are not only not required, but often seen as weakness. There's some merit to thinking that way because when things get tough those traits aren't going to help you very much. The world is extremely favorable towards men that know how to be successful solo. This doesn't necessarily attract women though, especially not good women, so here we are. Compounding this effect is that the latest generations of women are on the same path valuing the shallow things in life and only knowing how to work, but not live.
- pizza234 3y ago>> Incels will overestimate women’s minimum standards for mate-preferences. They will also overemphasize the importance of physical attractiveness and financial prospects and under emphasize the importance of kindness, intelligence, and humor > I feel like this is the most obvious answer and most in line with everyday experience. People who fall in such far end of the spectrum are highly likely to have suffered abuse in their childhood, and as a consequence, they're not able to bond romantically with the opposite sex; under this model, superficial characteristics (beauty, wealthm etc.) are not the cause, they're just the easiest rationalization that they can find.
- glimshe 3y agoI remember a friend in middle school telling me his big discovery: "the way to a girl's heart is making her laugh". While some good taste and subtlety are important here, it's not far from truth!
- JohnBooty 3y agoI feel like this is the most obvious answer and most in line with everyday experience. I've interacted with some incels online and their intricate rationalizations are just wild, about how only the top N% of men (in terms of looks and/or sexual prowess and/or money) are monopolizing all the women. And I'm just like.... Forget all of that. Just step outside and go literally anywhere where families or couples go. Look around. Look at all these men who have partners! Most of these men are not exactly models and/or dripping with cash! Clearly it is possible. (I am one of these people...) But you can't reason with incels, obviously. It's like trying to reason with somebody who has an eating disorder and thinks they're fat even though they're dangerously underweight. They are in a dark, damaged place and pointing to objective facts is not going to lead them out of that place.
- gettodachoppa 3y agoThere's no such thing as "involuntarily celibate", it's just another BS term in the fanfiction-as-science narrative of the typical hacks. I've seen men on Twitter who are literally married with children get called incels, just for having the wrong political opinions or even criticizing a crappy Marvel movie! Anyone can get a girlfriend if they lower their standards enough, so in the end it's their choice, so it cannot be involuntary. The only way someone could be an incel is if they got thrown in prison and have no way to actually meet women, or other examples like this
- tnbp 3y agowhere can I read your paper
- numbers_guy 3y ago> The only way someone could be an incel is if they got thrown in prison and have no way to actually meet women, or other examples like this Like spending their formative years in nerd/tech bubbles with no girls around, you mean? I agree that technically very few people are "involuntarily" celibate, but one does not have to strain hard to imagine a situation where somebody might find it very hard to find a compatible partner.
- throwaway12445 3y agoTakeaways. 1. Incels and non-incels have a very similar views about women's preferences. 2. Incels have lower standards than non-incels. I would like to see a study that measures incel and non-incel attractiveness to see if there is a big difference between populations.