6 ms·

South Korea launches digital nomad visa to boost remote work options in 2024

43 points by T-A 3y ago

alexawarrior23 3y ago
So I've got to prove I make $70k a year, and then put down a $7500 deposit on a small apartment that costs me $1800 a month in a crappy part of Seoul, and get insurance and a bunch of other things, and then I only get to stay six months, and if I extend it it's only up to two years? No thanks. When will the demographic time bomb racial supremacist countries learn that people want to ACTUALLY IMMIGRATE to countries? Become a part of the society and live their the rest of their lives? Like you can do in Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, USA (if you get off H1B). Too little, too late. Sit back and watch their population pyramid implode and enjoy the popcorn.
- TheRoque 3y ago
  If the apartment is 1800$ a month, the deposit will be more like 15000$
  - worthless-trash 3y ago
    From memory, you get this back at the end and need to keep paying rent each month. You can't 'spend' the deposit like some countries allow.
- tavavex 3y ago
  I don't know much about South Korea's immigration policies, but why should this specific program accommodate permanent immigration? This visa is the opposite of a worker visa for a person that may want to become a permanent resident in the future - its purpose is to let someone live on their land while still being considered a citizen of their origin country for all other purposes. I'm guessing that there are better visa options out there for people who want to live and work in SK full-time.
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    In most countries if you stay long enough and qualify then you become a permanent resident. The sneaky trick that SK is doing with its maximum term of 2 years is ensuring that no one on this arrangement will be eligible (which apparently requires residing there for 5 years at least: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_South_Korea). This makes the program entirely pointless for intended audience, ie. people dead set on living in South Korea (not just have fun for a year).
    - petesergeant 3y ago
      Or, more likely, people will switch to a different visa type if they’re looking to do more years? I’m not sure any of this counts as a “sneaky trick”
      - throwaway290 3y ago
        Of course and that's exactly the point. Other visa types require things like employment in SK or being Korean, things nomad visa is supposed to avoid
- punkbit 3y ago
  People can’t simply decide to move to the US, Australia and UK and spend the rest of their lives there. The same applies to South Korea. You want to live there, you need to apply for a visa like everyone else.
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    Yeah, his point is that he isn't going to do it with those restrictions. Most of these startup visas have all these restrictions. And everyone is always like "yeah, you need to play by the rules like everyone else" and shit like that, but in the end it's just people saying "I'm not buying what you're offering" and then the government just sits there not having achieved whatever objective it set out to do with this stuff. It's an asymmetric relationship. The nomad doesn't care if SK runs this program. But SK does care if people don't come.
    - maeil 3y ago
      > It's an asymmetric relationship. The nomad doesn't care if SK runs this program. But SK does care if people don't come. Unfortunately, they don't particularly care. The whole driver behind this program is optics. Both to domestic voters "Look at how global and modern the current government is and how much we're doing", as well as to international headline-readers "Look at how progressive Korea is".
      - renewiltord 3y ago
        Ah, I see. In that case, I suppose no one really cares where it goes. S Korea's loss, in my opinion. They're the ones whose population will shrink by half every half-century from now.
        15457345234 3y ago
        > They're the ones whose population will shrink by half every half-century from now. How is that a loss? I think people are realising that the 'grow your way to success' model doesn't work for countries any more, unless you're the US, which is in a fairly unique position simply due to having a geography that no other country shares.
- scotty79 3y ago
  Shouldn't rich people be able to get hassle free visas? Why ban them from your country if they just want to live there and spend their money, regardless of whether they earn some more or not? Just prove you have 100k and you get to stay this many days.
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    This is the hassle free rich people visa version of South Korea. Prove you earn $XXXXXX, leave $XXXXXX deposit, buy $XXXXX insurance = get a golden visa for two years, then get the hell out. It's not to accommodate people who might actually want to live there (for whatever crazy reason)
    - scotty79 3y ago
      But that means you need to have a job. Which many rich people don't really need or have.
      - throwaway290 3y ago
        I think many top percenters have income without tradjob, stuff like investment dividends and all that.
- zeroCalories 3y ago
  I don't think digital nomad visas are about demographics. This provides a legal way for people to do something that's already happening in many of these countries, so that's a good thing. Further, I think these countries are aware that people would immigrate given the chance. They simply don't want the immigrants, and it's not really your place to demand they take them.
- maeil 3y ago
  > So I've got to prove I make $70k a year, and then put down a $7500 deposit on a small apartment that costs me $1800 a month Nice, <5 years old, fully furnished, two-bed room apartments in central, well-connected areas of Seoul are <$1000 per month. And that's places that are suitable for 2 people to live in - the large majority of digital nomads live on their own, in which case it's even cheaper.
  - alexawarrior23 3y ago
    You must be aware of a different Seoul then I am. I've looked at moving there and asked my Korean friends. "Fully furnished, two-bed room apartments in central, well-connected areas of Seoul are <$1000 per month" does not jibe with anything I have seen, ever. Please send me the property link because I'm obviously looking in the wrong place.
    - maeil 3y ago
      I've replied to the person below you with links: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39026946 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39026946 The last one is 2 bedrooms for about $1000/month, fully furnished. Sure, it's stretching it, but a world of difference with your claim of $1800 for a small apartment in the context of digital nomads.
  - csomar 3y ago
    As someone who tried to find a suitable sub-$1000 rent in Seoul, I call your claim. Maybe you can provide online listings to counter?
    - maeil 3y ago
      Sure, as I live in such a place myself, and I got the contract last year. Since then housing prices have fallen in Seoul. - Random building here https://fin.land.naver.com/articles/2402864693 https://fin.land.naver.com/articles/2402864693 Last March, 2 contracts at 2,000/63 and 2,000/80 respectively. Still too high of a deposit? https://fin.land.naver.com/articles/2402982978 https://fin.land.naver.com/articles/2402982978 @ 1,000/90, building is less than 2 years old. Need 2 bedrooms? Here: https://fin.land.naver.com/articles/2356138769 https://fin.land.naver.com/articles/2356138769
- IlikeMadison 3y ago
  What's wrong with a country having its population getting lower in an overpopulated continent? South Korea is a highly educated and developed country and most families are very well happy with a single child. With the advancement of technology, robotics, AI and so on I don't see how manpower is going to be absolutely necessary in the future either. If the problem is retirement and how to finance it, don't worry, alternative ways exist to fix that, fearmongering isn't necessary. No, you are not a "racial supremacist" if your goal is to keep social peace and prevent the society you live in to crumble with millions of individuals who don't share the same values as you. Death to the merchants.
- surgical_fire 3y ago
  > USA (if you get off H1B). Funny joke. Everybody laughs.
Fbnkigffb66tfbj 3y ago
I haven't seen any "digital nomad visas" that make much sense for a typical nomadic remote worker. Why go through all the bureaucracy when I can just quietly work while on 30-90 day visa-free (or cheap and easy visa-on-arrival) tourist entry stamps?
- kasey_junk 3y ago
  Because that’s typically illegal?
  - alexawarrior23 3y ago
    As long as your source of income is entirely outside the country, which it typically is, then in most cases you're fine. You're essentially just like a travelling investor. It's earning income from within the country that you can't do legally without a visa.
    - TheRoque 3y ago
      That's not true, and it's often not well known, but your own physical location is also a factor, not only your source of income. Most countries would never detect this anyways, but you shouldn't think that it's legal at all.
      - alexawarrior23 3y ago
        Well then I guess the lawyers I hired in country were all lying to me? As long as I didn't overstay my visa, didn't stay more than the required time for physical presence test tax liability (typically 180 days), and didn't work for firms inside the country, I was legit. Please let me know if I was given bad legal advice, because I don't want to get thrown in jail in the future.
        petesergeant 3y ago
        If they told you the legal advice they were giving you for a specific country was valid in all countries, and that all countries treated this income the same way, then yes, they lied to you.
jbverschoor 3y ago
Again no mention of taxation
- petesergeant 3y ago
  Which usually means you’ll be caught my the country’s general tax provisions, and the local tax agency will have no institutional knowledge of how this is meant to work for people on this visa.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
worthless-trash 3y ago
My memory may be failing, last time (15 years ish? ) I looked at living / staying in Korea most places asked for a full years rent up front, then additional rent each month. You are supposed to get it back at the end of the lease. It would be trivial for a land lord to abuse a foreigner in this circumstance on the VISA, its not like you can stay around after the end of your lease to take them to court to recoup your money. I'd be very careful about this.
- alexawarrior23 3y ago
  Exactly, I suffered this landlord abuse while working abroad. Apartment was delivered back to the landlord crystal clean and 100% intact. Then they took my entire deposit and billed me around 12,000 EUR. I even had pictures to show that I had done no damage, but you can imagine how foreigner vs native testimony works in these kinds of super-racist countries. I managed to leave before I had to pay the bill, but I still lost my full deposit. Apparently this "fleece the foreigner" is a well known tactic in some countries.
  - stormfather 3y ago
    Where was this? Asking so I can never visit.
- wenc 3y ago
  That is a very specific legal arrangement, which I understand is getting rarer and rarer these days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeonse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeonse
  - worthless-trash 3y ago
    Ah, that is good to hear. Can foreigners enter a 'western' like rent agreement ?
petesergeant 3y ago
As with almost every digital nomad visa I’ve seen, this seems poorly thought out, tax implications aren’t clear, but is someone’s “let’s be modern!” pet project. UAE’s Remote Work visa is the only one I’ve been tempted to use so far.
- csomar 3y ago
  Much easier for the UAE to do this as they have no income taxes; and also they are used to having a large foreign population on their soil (and normalized with that situation). Most other countries are not ready for that.
macintux 3y ago
Extensive discussion 3 weeks ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38804452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38804452
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
imarkphillips 3y ago
As I wrote a year ago the range of new digital nomad visas are largely poor attempts at attracting more tourism dollars. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/digital-nomad-visa-dilemma-mark-phillips https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/digital-nomad-visa-dilemma-ma... Most digital nomads still don't use them as other Commenters have outlined, they are cumbersome, expensive & don't address the taxation elements well. Digital Nomad entrepreneurs can often work under standard 'tourist' visas in any case if they stick to the 'business' rules attached to those visas in any case. While Permanent Establishment rules scare many employers off permitting much remote work for their employees. With competition between countries to attract tourism the current version 1 DN visas will need to change to become attractors. I'd suggest removing the 30/90 limit from tourism visas is an easy way to improve tourism economics. Changing taxation policies will take longer but are also needed as the remote worker world grows so strongly & favour 'tax friendly' nations.

43 points by T-A 3y ago

So I've got to prove I make $70k a year, and then put down a $7500 deposit on a small apartment that costs me $1800 a month in a crappy part of Seoul, and get insurance and a bunch of other things, and then I only get to stay six months, and if I extend it it's only up to two years? No thanks. When will the demographic time bomb racial supremacist countries learn that people want to ACTUALLY IMMIGRATE to countries? Become a part of the society and live their the rest of their lives? Like you can do in Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, USA (if you get off H1B). Too little, too late. Sit back and watch their population pyramid implode and enjoy the popcorn.

TheRoque 3y ago
If the apartment is 1800$ a month, the deposit will be more like 15000$
- worthless-trash 3y ago
  From memory, you get this back at the end and need to keep paying rent each month. You can't 'spend' the deposit like some countries allow.
tavavex 3y ago
I don't know much about South Korea's immigration policies, but why should this specific program accommodate permanent immigration? This visa is the opposite of a worker visa for a person that may want to become a permanent resident in the future - its purpose is to let someone live on their land while still being considered a citizen of their origin country for all other purposes. I'm guessing that there are better visa options out there for people who want to live and work in SK full-time.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  In most countries if you stay long enough and qualify then you become a permanent resident. The sneaky trick that SK is doing with its maximum term of 2 years is ensuring that no one on this arrangement will be eligible (which apparently requires residing there for 5 years at least: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_South_Korea). This makes the program entirely pointless for intended audience, ie. people dead set on living in South Korea (not just have fun for a year).
  - petesergeant 3y ago
    Or, more likely, people will switch to a different visa type if they’re looking to do more years? I’m not sure any of this counts as a “sneaky trick”
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      Of course and that's exactly the point. Other visa types require things like employment in SK or being Korean, things nomad visa is supposed to avoid
punkbit 3y ago
People can’t simply decide to move to the US, Australia and UK and spend the rest of their lives there. The same applies to South Korea. You want to live there, you need to apply for a visa like everyone else.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  Yeah, his point is that he isn't going to do it with those restrictions. Most of these startup visas have all these restrictions. And everyone is always like "yeah, you need to play by the rules like everyone else" and shit like that, but in the end it's just people saying "I'm not buying what you're offering" and then the government just sits there not having achieved whatever objective it set out to do with this stuff. It's an asymmetric relationship. The nomad doesn't care if SK runs this program. But SK does care if people don't come.
  - maeil 3y ago
    > It's an asymmetric relationship. The nomad doesn't care if SK runs this program. But SK does care if people don't come. Unfortunately, they don't particularly care. The whole driver behind this program is optics. Both to domestic voters "Look at how global and modern the current government is and how much we're doing", as well as to international headline-readers "Look at how progressive Korea is".
    - renewiltord 3y ago
      Ah, I see. In that case, I suppose no one really cares where it goes. S Korea's loss, in my opinion. They're the ones whose population will shrink by half every half-century from now.
      - 15457345234 3y ago
        > They're the ones whose population will shrink by half every half-century from now. How is that a loss? I think people are realising that the 'grow your way to success' model doesn't work for countries any more, unless you're the US, which is in a fairly unique position simply due to having a geography that no other country shares.
scotty79 3y ago
Shouldn't rich people be able to get hassle free visas? Why ban them from your country if they just want to live there and spend their money, regardless of whether they earn some more or not? Just prove you have 100k and you get to stay this many days.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  This is the hassle free rich people visa version of South Korea. Prove you earn $XXXXXX, leave $XXXXXX deposit, buy $XXXXX insurance = get a golden visa for two years, then get the hell out. It's not to accommodate people who might actually want to live there (for whatever crazy reason)
  - scotty79 3y ago
    But that means you need to have a job. Which many rich people don't really need or have.
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      I think many top percenters have income without tradjob, stuff like investment dividends and all that.
zeroCalories 3y ago
I don't think digital nomad visas are about demographics. This provides a legal way for people to do something that's already happening in many of these countries, so that's a good thing. Further, I think these countries are aware that people would immigrate given the chance. They simply don't want the immigrants, and it's not really your place to demand they take them.
maeil 3y ago
> So I've got to prove I make $70k a year, and then put down a $7500 deposit on a small apartment that costs me $1800 a month Nice, <5 years old, fully furnished, two-bed room apartments in central, well-connected areas of Seoul are <$1000 per month. And that's places that are suitable for 2 people to live in - the large majority of digital nomads live on their own, in which case it's even cheaper.
- alexawarrior23 3y ago
  You must be aware of a different Seoul then I am. I've looked at moving there and asked my Korean friends. "Fully furnished, two-bed room apartments in central, well-connected areas of Seoul are <$1000 per month" does not jibe with anything I have seen, ever. Please send me the property link because I'm obviously looking in the wrong place.
  - maeil 3y ago
    I've replied to the person below you with links: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39026946 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39026946 The last one is 2 bedrooms for about $1000/month, fully furnished. Sure, it's stretching it, but a world of difference with your claim of $1800 for a small apartment in the context of digital nomads.
- csomar 3y ago
  As someone who tried to find a suitable sub-$1000 rent in Seoul, I call your claim. Maybe you can provide online listings to counter?
  - maeil 3y ago
    Sure, as I live in such a place myself, and I got the contract last year. Since then housing prices have fallen in Seoul. - Random building here https://fin.land.naver.com/articles/2402864693 https://fin.land.naver.com/articles/2402864693 Last March, 2 contracts at 2,000/63 and 2,000/80 respectively. Still too high of a deposit? https://fin.land.naver.com/articles/2402982978 https://fin.land.naver.com/articles/2402982978 @ 1,000/90, building is less than 2 years old. Need 2 bedrooms? Here: https://fin.land.naver.com/articles/2356138769 https://fin.land.naver.com/articles/2356138769
IlikeMadison 3y ago
What's wrong with a country having its population getting lower in an overpopulated continent? South Korea is a highly educated and developed country and most families are very well happy with a single child. With the advancement of technology, robotics, AI and so on I don't see how manpower is going to be absolutely necessary in the future either. If the problem is retirement and how to finance it, don't worry, alternative ways exist to fix that, fearmongering isn't necessary. No, you are not a "racial supremacist" if your goal is to keep social peace and prevent the society you live in to crumble with millions of individuals who don't share the same values as you. Death to the merchants.
surgical_fire 3y ago
> USA (if you get off H1B). Funny joke. Everybody laughs.

Fbnkigffb66tfbj 3y ago

I haven't seen any "digital nomad visas" that make much sense for a typical nomadic remote worker. Why go through all the bureaucracy when I can just quietly work while on 30-90 day visa-free (or cheap and easy visa-on-arrival) tourist entry stamps?

kasey_junk 3y ago
Because that’s typically illegal?
- alexawarrior23 3y ago
  As long as your source of income is entirely outside the country, which it typically is, then in most cases you're fine. You're essentially just like a travelling investor. It's earning income from within the country that you can't do legally without a visa.
  - TheRoque 3y ago
    That's not true, and it's often not well known, but your own physical location is also a factor, not only your source of income. Most countries would never detect this anyways, but you shouldn't think that it's legal at all.
    - alexawarrior23 3y ago
      Well then I guess the lawyers I hired in country were all lying to me? As long as I didn't overstay my visa, didn't stay more than the required time for physical presence test tax liability (typically 180 days), and didn't work for firms inside the country, I was legit. Please let me know if I was given bad legal advice, because I don't want to get thrown in jail in the future.
      - petesergeant 3y ago
        If they told you the legal advice they were giving you for a specific country was valid in all countries, and that all countries treated this income the same way, then yes, they lied to you.

jbverschoor 3y ago

Again no mention of taxation

petesergeant 3y ago
Which usually means you’ll be caught my the country’s general tax provisions, and the local tax agency will have no institutional knowledge of how this is meant to work for people on this visa.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

worthless-trash 3y ago

My memory may be failing, last time (15 years ish? ) I looked at living / staying in Korea most places asked for a full years rent up front, then additional rent each month. You are supposed to get it back at the end of the lease. It would be trivial for a land lord to abuse a foreigner in this circumstance on the VISA, its not like you can stay around after the end of your lease to take them to court to recoup your money. I'd be very careful about this.

alexawarrior23 3y ago
Exactly, I suffered this landlord abuse while working abroad. Apartment was delivered back to the landlord crystal clean and 100% intact. Then they took my entire deposit and billed me around 12,000 EUR. I even had pictures to show that I had done no damage, but you can imagine how foreigner vs native testimony works in these kinds of super-racist countries. I managed to leave before I had to pay the bill, but I still lost my full deposit. Apparently this "fleece the foreigner" is a well known tactic in some countries.
- stormfather 3y ago
  Where was this? Asking so I can never visit.
wenc 3y ago
That is a very specific legal arrangement, which I understand is getting rarer and rarer these days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeonse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeonse
- worthless-trash 3y ago
  Ah, that is good to hear. Can foreigners enter a 'western' like rent agreement ?

petesergeant 3y ago

As with almost every digital nomad visa I’ve seen, this seems poorly thought out, tax implications aren’t clear, but is someone’s “let’s be modern!” pet project. UAE’s Remote Work visa is the only one I’ve been tempted to use so far.

csomar 3y ago
Much easier for the UAE to do this as they have no income taxes; and also they are used to having a large foreign population on their soil (and normalized with that situation). Most other countries are not ready for that.

macintux 3y ago

Extensive discussion 3 weeks ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38804452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38804452

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

imarkphillips 3y ago

As I wrote a year ago the range of new digital nomad visas are largely poor attempts at attracting more tourism dollars. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/digital-nomad-visa-dilemma-mark-phillips https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/digital-nomad-visa-dilemma-ma... Most digital nomads still don't use them as other Commenters have outlined, they are cumbersome, expensive & don't address the taxation elements well. Digital Nomad entrepreneurs can often work under standard 'tourist' visas in any case if they stick to the 'business' rules attached to those visas in any case. While Permanent Establishment rules scare many employers off permitting much remote work for their employees. With competition between countries to attract tourism the current version 1 DN visas will need to change to become attractors. I'd suggest removing the 30/90 limit from tourism visas is an easy way to improve tourism economics. Changing taxation policies will take longer but are also needed as the remote worker world grows so strongly & favour 'tax friendly' nations.