5 ms·

Loved BeOS, and love HaikuOS. But a "daily driver" it is most certainly not. Don't be fooled.

mtillman 3y ago
Having contributed to the project, I still agree. In my mind it’s perfect for retirees who don’t need zoom or mobile syncing. The browser is quite good imo as is the email client. I really like that it’s (by default) a single user environment-ideal for an old laptop.
- al_borland 3y ago
  I have to imagine the Venn diagram of retirees and people who are interested in trying more obscure operating systems, has only a sliver of overlap. Though I may end up in that camp one day. I did quite a bit of that between graduating from college and getting my first job.
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    Retirees built every long lasting technology we use everyday, and even invented some too. ;-)
    - al_borland 3y ago
      Those pioneers make up the sliver of the Venn diagram.
      - trealira 3y ago
        The majority of them probably aren't interested in trying BeOS as a daily driver, either. More likely they'd use Windows, MacOS, or Linux. Maybe a BSD.
  - kjellsbells 3y ago
    I know that the industry is littered with the skeletons of "kitchen PC for Grandma" that lets a senior connect to the grandkids, set a timer for those apple pies, and do some light surfing, and that it will never work on the slurry-filled Internet that Grandma's kids actually built in their day jobs - but with each passing enshittification of the home user PC experience, the siren song of a simple single user OS that is reliable, fast and secure grows louder.
    - defrost 3y ago
      As a retired grandparent I was delighted to see that software I worked on in the 1980s was recently used to crack a Quantum-resistant cryptosystem candidate ( SIKE -Supersingular Isogeny Key Encapsulation) in minutes. https://mathematical-research-institute.sydney.edu.au/news/quantum-encryption-algorithm-cracked-by-computer-running-magma/ https://mathematical-research-institute.sydney.edu.au/news/q... ( Magma is a 1990s- second gen version of Cayley from the 1980s- ) Can you explain more about setting a timer for apple pies?
      - kjellsbells 3y ago
        Well, there are many seniors doing great work and staying up to date on all kinds of new tech and so on. But one glance at the media directed at mass market seniors and you can also see that people believe there is a huge market for simplified devices and technology. Consumer Cellular, jitterbug phone, life alert necklaces, the list goes on. All thru the 90s and 2000s there were attempts to make a PC into a home hub. I think even facebook tried around 2018 iirc. It would be something that you put on the kitchen counter and that serves as a recipe database, conferencing machine, and a useful kitchen helper: such as, setting a timer to go off to tell you that its time to get the apple pie out of the oven. The UI for such a thing needs to be simple and bulletproof. Windows and Linux dont meet that bar. I think iOS comes close. In another timeline, it could have been BeOS.
    - jonhohle 3y ago
      That idea is exactly what killed Be. Well, one of the things, anyway. 10 years later the iPad filled that roll and continues un-challenged nearly 14 years later.
helloimhonk 3y ago
If it works on ones computer I dont see why it couldnt be daily driven depending on your needs. It has a webkit based browser, and a native emacs port, thats pretty much all i use day to day :P
- sneak 3y ago
  No 3D acceleration.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    What are you doing on a daily basis that needs 3D graphics?
    - sneak 3y ago
      Video games, video playback, video encoding, video effects, desktop window effects and compositing, high res scrolling (I use an 8K display).
      - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
        > video playback, video encoding, video effects, [...] high res scrolling (I use an 8K display). Are those 3D graphics? > desktop window effects and compositing, Does Haiku use those? If not, it seems irrelevant. > Video games, That's the one that I'll agree with, but is depends what we mean by "daily driver"; I was thinking of what would be needed to do productive work, and that possibly restricted by what kind of work you're doing, not the ability to run literally all use cases. So I agree that it's probably not a good choice for somebody who does 3D modeling, but it's probably fine for somebody who writes web back ends.
        Rohansi 3y ago
        > Are those 3D graphics? Not exactly but all hardware accelerated rendering today is done using the same APIs as 3D graphics. You would use OpenGL (or any other API) and basically render everything without the third dimension. There is no hardware accelerated graphics API for 2D graphics specifically anymore, they are all built on top of 3D graphics.
tadfisher 3y ago
I have to try Haiku, but the last time I used BeOS everything effectively ran as root. Not that Unix-style user permissions are the epitome of OS security, but at least an RCE vulnerability in the browser doesn't allow for persistent root or whatever.
- lagniappe 3y ago
  It's a bit different, in that it's a single user system for the most part, whereas the Unix and Linux family are typically geared toward multi user environments.
- em-bee 3y ago
  haiku devs are working on some form of multiuser support
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  I mean, it depends on your threat model, but https://xkcd.com/1200/ https://xkcd.com/1200/ applies; for a single user machine what's the difference between the user and root?
  - tadfisher 3y ago
    I have to type a password to perform actions as root, for one.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
      You probably have to type a password to perform actions as your normal user, unless you've disabled the login screen for your system. But if you do enter that root password, what exactly can you do that you couldn't do as your own user that actually matters? Sure, root can ex. inject drivers to the kernel, but that's just an intermediate step. The real damage is typically in running a keylogger, getting access to your online accounts, sending DDoS traffic for a botnet, etc. - all actions that can be done with just your non-root user.
- bigpeopleareold 3y ago
steviedotboston 3y ago
leave it to Action Retro to lie and mislead viewers...
- ianai 3y ago
  Are they known for that? They deleted a perfectly respectable comment of mine yesterday and I’m a bit wary.
  - mattl 3y ago
    They tend to overhype everything for clickbait titles on YouTube.
  - hexagonwin 3y ago
    That might be an issue with YouTube's automated system though, not necessarily the channel admin's.
jbverschoor 3y ago
Early 2000s it was my daily driver. But man.. I used the filesystem like it was indented.. All my files had attributes. Unfortunately none of the metadata was supported on other platforms. Lots of wasted energy :) I loved BeOS
- oso2k 3y ago
  I used the filesystem like it was indented. What does `indented` mean here. Not familiar with this usage.
  - Modified3019 3y ago
    Almost certainly they meant to write “intended”.
    - oso2k 3y ago
      Ha! I feel like a dork now. After dinner haze.
  - jbverschoor 3y ago
    lol.. I meant that intended :). BeOS made heavy use of extended attributes. Everything was a file, and you could add attributes. With modern filesystems, this is also possible, but what made BeOS so special is that the attributes were a core feature of the OS. The file manager Tracker (Finder / Explorer) allowed you to select any attribute as a column name. The filesystem indexed all attributes, so it was blazing fast. For example, all emails were stored as regular files (like Maildir). They had attributes for things like: MAIL:from, MAIL:when, MAIL:subject etc. It's a different from using a separate indexing service like Spotlight.
- sillywalk 3y ago
  Did you ever use Scott Hacker's CD ripping script? It got the track info from cddb, added the attributes to both the mp3 files and the BFS extended attributes.
  - 3y ago
yellowapple 3y ago
I attempted to use Haiku as my daily driver about a year ago. Only four things really put the kibosh on that: 1. Lack of native / built-in support for full-disk encryption 2. Lack of a day-to-day usable web browser 3. Lack of the apps I regularly use on Linux and Windows (or good enough equivalents) 4. Lack of stability on the hardware I was using (Framework 11th Gen) It looks like at least one of those is no longer an issue, thanks to Falkon. It also looks like there's been a lot of progress on getting Wine working and stable. If overall stability is sufficiently improved, then giving it another try might very well be in the cards, even without FDE.
- helf 3y ago
  [dead]
- hackeraccount 3y ago
  Other then that how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?
dogma1138 3y ago
If your daily driver is only web and email you can drive anything.
- snvzz 3y ago
  FDE still a stopper, in this post-Snowden world. Can't afford to do much on a machine that doesn't meet that bar.
  - dogma1138 3y ago
    If you’re only using it for web then booting into a “live CD” is good enough. Arguably live CD and encrypted removable storage which stays with you at all times is probably harder to defeat than most FDE.

Having contributed to the project, I still agree. In my mind it’s perfect for retirees who don’t need zoom or mobile syncing. The browser is quite good imo as is the email client. I really like that it’s (by default) a single user environment-ideal for an old laptop.

al_borland 3y ago
I have to imagine the Venn diagram of retirees and people who are interested in trying more obscure operating systems, has only a sliver of overlap. Though I may end up in that camp one day. I did quite a bit of that between graduating from college and getting my first job.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  Retirees built every long lasting technology we use everyday, and even invented some too. ;-)
  - al_borland 3y ago
    Those pioneers make up the sliver of the Venn diagram.
    - trealira 3y ago
      The majority of them probably aren't interested in trying BeOS as a daily driver, either. More likely they'd use Windows, MacOS, or Linux. Maybe a BSD.
- kjellsbells 3y ago
  I know that the industry is littered with the skeletons of "kitchen PC for Grandma" that lets a senior connect to the grandkids, set a timer for those apple pies, and do some light surfing, and that it will never work on the slurry-filled Internet that Grandma's kids actually built in their day jobs - but with each passing enshittification of the home user PC experience, the siren song of a simple single user OS that is reliable, fast and secure grows louder.
  - defrost 3y ago
    As a retired grandparent I was delighted to see that software I worked on in the 1980s was recently used to crack a Quantum-resistant cryptosystem candidate ( SIKE -Supersingular Isogeny Key Encapsulation) in minutes. https://mathematical-research-institute.sydney.edu.au/news/quantum-encryption-algorithm-cracked-by-computer-running-magma/ https://mathematical-research-institute.sydney.edu.au/news/q... ( Magma is a 1990s- second gen version of Cayley from the 1980s- ) Can you explain more about setting a timer for apple pies?
    - kjellsbells 3y ago
      Well, there are many seniors doing great work and staying up to date on all kinds of new tech and so on. But one glance at the media directed at mass market seniors and you can also see that people believe there is a huge market for simplified devices and technology. Consumer Cellular, jitterbug phone, life alert necklaces, the list goes on. All thru the 90s and 2000s there were attempts to make a PC into a home hub. I think even facebook tried around 2018 iirc. It would be something that you put on the kitchen counter and that serves as a recipe database, conferencing machine, and a useful kitchen helper: such as, setting a timer to go off to tell you that its time to get the apple pie out of the oven. The UI for such a thing needs to be simple and bulletproof. Windows and Linux dont meet that bar. I think iOS comes close. In another timeline, it could have been BeOS.
  - jonhohle 3y ago
    That idea is exactly what killed Be. Well, one of the things, anyway. 10 years later the iPad filled that roll and continues un-challenged nearly 14 years later.

helloimhonk 3y ago

If it works on ones computer I dont see why it couldnt be daily driven depending on your needs. It has a webkit based browser, and a native emacs port, thats pretty much all i use day to day :P

sneak 3y ago
No 3D acceleration.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  What are you doing on a daily basis that needs 3D graphics?
  - sneak 3y ago
    Video games, video playback, video encoding, video effects, desktop window effects and compositing, high res scrolling (I use an 8K display).
    - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
      > video playback, video encoding, video effects, [...] high res scrolling (I use an 8K display). Are those 3D graphics? > desktop window effects and compositing, Does Haiku use those? If not, it seems irrelevant. > Video games, That's the one that I'll agree with, but is depends what we mean by "daily driver"; I was thinking of what would be needed to do productive work, and that possibly restricted by what kind of work you're doing, not the ability to run literally all use cases. So I agree that it's probably not a good choice for somebody who does 3D modeling, but it's probably fine for somebody who writes web back ends.
      - Rohansi 3y ago
        > Are those 3D graphics? Not exactly but all hardware accelerated rendering today is done using the same APIs as 3D graphics. You would use OpenGL (or any other API) and basically render everything without the third dimension. There is no hardware accelerated graphics API for 2D graphics specifically anymore, they are all built on top of 3D graphics.

tadfisher 3y ago

I have to try Haiku, but the last time I used BeOS everything effectively ran as root. Not that Unix-style user permissions are the epitome of OS security, but at least an RCE vulnerability in the browser doesn't allow for persistent root or whatever.

lagniappe 3y ago
It's a bit different, in that it's a single user system for the most part, whereas the Unix and Linux family are typically geared toward multi user environments.
em-bee 3y ago
haiku devs are working on some form of multiuser support
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
I mean, it depends on your threat model, but https://xkcd.com/1200/ https://xkcd.com/1200/ applies; for a single user machine what's the difference between the user and root?
- tadfisher 3y ago
  I have to type a password to perform actions as root, for one.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    You probably have to type a password to perform actions as your normal user, unless you've disabled the login screen for your system. But if you do enter that root password, what exactly can you do that you couldn't do as your own user that actually matters? Sure, root can ex. inject drivers to the kernel, but that's just an intermediate step. The real damage is typically in running a keylogger, getting access to your online accounts, sending DDoS traffic for a botnet, etc. - all actions that can be done with just your non-root user.
bigpeopleareold 3y ago

steviedotboston 3y ago

leave it to Action Retro to lie and mislead viewers...

ianai 3y ago
Are they known for that? They deleted a perfectly respectable comment of mine yesterday and I’m a bit wary.
- mattl 3y ago
  They tend to overhype everything for clickbait titles on YouTube.
- hexagonwin 3y ago
  That might be an issue with YouTube's automated system though, not necessarily the channel admin's.

jbverschoor 3y ago

Early 2000s it was my daily driver. But man.. I used the filesystem like it was indented.. All my files had attributes. Unfortunately none of the metadata was supported on other platforms. Lots of wasted energy :) I loved BeOS

oso2k 3y ago
I used the filesystem like it was indented. What does `indented` mean here. Not familiar with this usage.
- Modified3019 3y ago
  Almost certainly they meant to write “intended”.
  - oso2k 3y ago
    Ha! I feel like a dork now. After dinner haze.
- jbverschoor 3y ago
  lol.. I meant that intended :). BeOS made heavy use of extended attributes. Everything was a file, and you could add attributes. With modern filesystems, this is also possible, but what made BeOS so special is that the attributes were a core feature of the OS. The file manager Tracker (Finder / Explorer) allowed you to select any attribute as a column name. The filesystem indexed all attributes, so it was blazing fast. For example, all emails were stored as regular files (like Maildir). They had attributes for things like: MAIL:from, MAIL:when, MAIL:subject etc. It's a different from using a separate indexing service like Spotlight.
sillywalk 3y ago
Did you ever use Scott Hacker's CD ripping script? It got the track info from cddb, added the attributes to both the mp3 files and the BFS extended attributes.
- 3y ago

yellowapple 3y ago

I attempted to use Haiku as my daily driver about a year ago. Only four things really put the kibosh on that: 1. Lack of native / built-in support for full-disk encryption 2. Lack of a day-to-day usable web browser 3. Lack of the apps I regularly use on Linux and Windows (or good enough equivalents) 4. Lack of stability on the hardware I was using (Framework 11th Gen) It looks like at least one of those is no longer an issue, thanks to Falkon. It also looks like there's been a lot of progress on getting Wine working and stable. If overall stability is sufficiently improved, then giving it another try might very well be in the cards, even without FDE.

helf 3y ago
[dead]
hackeraccount 3y ago
Other then that how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?

dogma1138 3y ago

If your daily driver is only web and email you can drive anything.

snvzz 3y ago
FDE still a stopper, in this post-Snowden world. Can't afford to do much on a machine that doesn't meet that bar.
- dogma1138 3y ago
  If you’re only using it for web then booting into a “live CD” is good enough. Arguably live CD and encrypted removable storage which stays with you at all times is probably harder to defeat than most FDE.