15 ms·

Ancient City Found in the Amazon

146 points by mvdwoord 3y ago

LudwigNagasena 3y ago
It’s really tiring to see that every new finding shows us how everything is Eurocentric and problematic. What is the point of putting that vapid moralising into the article? It’s not even that true. Europeans have been searching for cities in the Amazon for hundreds of years and found evidence that they existed. 2003 - Lost cities of the Amazon revealed: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna3077413 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna3077413 2008 - Ancient Amazon Actually Highly Urbanized: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lost-amazon-cities/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lost-amazon-citie... 2019 - Long lost cities in the Amazon were once home to millions of people: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132130-300-long-lost-cities-in-the-amazon-were-once-home-to-millions-of-people/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132130-300-long-los...
- primitivesuave 3y ago
  I was about to start writing exactly this, but didn't want to get into an argument with another Internet stranger about what the unspecified "we" (i.e. the general population) believes nowadays. Even the original explorers of that region, back when it was known as Verzin, were quite objective in their reports. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_First_Voyage_Round_the_World/Pigafetta%27s_Account_of_Magellan%27s_Voyage https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_First_Voyage_Round_the_Wo... The journalistic style at the BBC is to push an outdated colonization narrative onto everything, and I am also quite tired by it.
  - palmfacehn 3y ago
    The topic is interesting. I would also prefer a less politicized source.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Pigafetta's Account of Magellan's Voyage may well be an objective report on what was seen in 1519. The BBC article is on city structures that date to a full thousand years earlier. If had been written, Pigafetta's Account of Magellan's Ship fitting and Departure wouldn't neccesarily shed light on the state of civilization in Portugal in 500 BCE.
    - primitivesuave 3y ago
      I brought up Pigafetta's account to point out that even five centuries ago, people were capable of making fascinating discoveries and simply stating the objective truth about what they found. Nowadays, the announcement of a discovery is usually paired with hyperbolic statements (e.g. "this changes everything we know about X") and veiled social commentary (e.g. "there is a widely-held Eurocentric view of civilization"). Had the sentence read more like "some academics have a Eurocentric view of civilization", I would probably take that argument at its face. But nowadays, with improvements in education and the vast quantity of good information available to anyone on the Internet, telling your readers that "we are Eurocentric in our view of culture and civilization" is tantamount to calling them ignorant.
      - defrost 3y ago
        Sure, it's absolutely qualifications all the way down; > five centuries ago, people were capable of making fascinating discoveries and simply stating [their perceived] objective truth about what they found. As I hope we can agree, Pigafetta with the best intentions in the "New World" was hardly capable of objectively writing anything other than his own perception .. that whole "New World" thing itself is a bit of a tell about contemporary writings on what for the subjects was the same old same old Old World they'd been living in for thousands of years. > telling your readers that "we are Eurocentric in our view of culture and civilization" is tantamount to calling them ignorant. The context for that is the BBC directly quoting Prof Stephen Rostain, director of investigation at the National Centre for Scientific Research in France. That is absolutely (I would hope) what the Prof said and it gives his opinion on the bulk of his European peers and mentors in studies of ancient civilisation. It's certainly the case that there are some acedemics who are not Eurocentric in outlook, a large number of those are out in front and in the public eye thanks to what some call "woke politics invading everywhere" but it's entirely possible there is still a dark mass of rarely popularised eurocentric professors of gravitas that create a well others are vocal about escaping from.
        primitivesuave 3y ago
        I completely agree with your point about Pigafetta only writing from his own perspective. Perhaps a more poignant example was his naming of modern-day Guam as “Isla de Los Robos” (island of thieves) because he could only perceive their communal society as one where people are constantly stealing from each other, despite spending over a month living amongst them while giving accounts of their harmonious society. As for the general state of academia, I would opine that modern scholarship’s “dark mass” is rooted in postmodernism, and the most successful way to operate as a modern academic is to present all evidence from a racial/colonial perspective. Although your guess is as good as mine, as is the BBC’s, since people also need to contend with the potential Internet backlash from presenting their views nowadays.
- cracrecry 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Angostura 3y ago
    I guess you should probably take it up with Prof Stephen Rostain, director of investigation at the National Centre for Scientific Research in France, who led the research - and who the BBC quotes directly, rather that giving the journalist a kicking. If the Prof says he was warned against this research at the start of his career because scientists believed no ancient groups had lived in the Amazon. Then this is clearly an interesting new angle. Sorry that you found it too "woke".
    - thworp 3y ago
      If you just read the quote in the article it does look a bit silly. The reason why people warned him and why the field of history was so "eurocentric" is because it is extremely difficult to find evidence in the Amazon. Nobody doubts the existence of Tenochtitlan or Cuzco because we have both written sources and archeological evidence. In this context, complaining about eurocentrism does come across as motivated reasoning.
      - Angostura 3y ago
        You'll excuse me if I think the Professor probably knows a bit more about the field and its internal politics than the commenters here.
  - piva00 3y ago
    > The BBC has been colonised by woke people, like other organisations like Scientific American or US top Universities. I don't live in the USA, can you clarify what "woke" means exactly?
    - clarionbell 3y ago
      That depends on who you ask. The term itself tends to be defined by extremes. Some say that woke are those who consider police brutality a problem. Others say that woke are those who believe that if you are victim, everything you do is justified, and that your ethnic/sexual/cultural identity is the most important thing about you. If you want to get better idea of how divisive the whole issue is look up comedian Bill Maher on youtube. He is pretty left, but he's very anti-woke.
- marbletiles 3y ago
  The "vapid moralising" is a quote from the person who lead the research. It's in the article because it is the opinion of the person whose work the article is about. Did you want the author to try and create false balance by finding someone to say "we don't have a eurocentric view of civilisation and this finding is nothing new"?
  - quonn 3y ago
    How does the researcher know what view „we“ have? The article should omit this statement.
    - angra_mainyu 3y ago
      Exactly. I'll never understand the zeal some people have for self-flagellating or being overly PC.
      - r0salesr 3y ago
        It might have to do with those individuals believing this behavior secures some kind of overwhelming safety or acceptance in their environment.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - notahacker 3y ago
      I assume that having worked as an academic in the field of archaeology for the past three decades, the researcher is in a considerably better position to opine on the focus of archaeological research and academic consensus about the Amazon than the average software developer angrily dismissing his views as "woke"...
      - dustfinger 3y ago
        > the average software developer angrily dismissing his views as "woke"... What is this supposed to mean? Why are you suggesting that the average "software developer" would view the subject's expressed point of view as "woke" as opposed to a person from any other occupation? Why the hostility towards software developers?
- NoImmatureAdHom 3y ago
  To add some context, even if Rostain doesn't actually believe the vapid nonsense about Eurocentrism etc., he is part of a field where it will be costly to not perform these ablutions. Archaeology / Anthropology have a very fraught relationship with science and reason, sadly.
- Solstinox 3y ago
  When you work in a temple, you can’t just skip the customary prayer and blessing before the meal.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  Now try to watch any nature documentary to calm your nerves after a day in this stressful modern life, and be hit with the mandatory climate change doomsday warnings. Usually at the end of every documentary, so to mitigate any risk that the watcher would have relaxed for a good nights sleep from watching nature.
  - angra_mainyu 3y ago
    I recall a conversation I had with a climate researcher some years ago in France that left me surprised. To paraphrase, they explained that forecasting a system as complex as the climate is difficult and naturally leads to many different outcomes. One subset of those outcomes, is that conditions would arise such that plant development is accelerated, something like a junglification (my word, probably butchering it). Here's an article related to this, that links to research: https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/430230-accelerated-rates-of-change-in-earth-s-vegetation-go-back-thousands-of-years https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/430230-accelerated-rates...
  - bmikaili 3y ago
    ??? How is this related? Are we on facebook?
    - carlosjobim 3y ago
      It's loosely related to how people always have to repeat some idea, almost in a ritualistic way.
- kushiteKing 3y ago
  The field of archaeology, along with many other academic disciplines, has historically been influenced by Eurocentric perspectives. This Eurocentrism in archaeology and history is deeply intertwined with the legacies of colonialism and racism. It's important to recognize that the Eurocentric view often incorrectly posits European history and culture as more significant or advanced than others, a perspective that has been perpetuated for centuries. The roots of Eurocentrism can be traced back to ideologies like white supremacy, which historically asserted the superiority of white Europeans over other races. This belief in racial hierarchy, unfortunately, influenced various scientific and cultural fields, including the interpretation of archaeological findings. For instance, the concept of phrenology, now discredited, was once used to claim inherent intellectual and moral superiority of certain races over others, particularly to justify the superiority of whites over other races. It's crucial to understand that human civilization has a rich and diverse origin, much of which began in regions outside of Europe. The earliest known civilizations and significant cultural developments originated in various parts of the world, including Africa, Asia, and the Americas. The reluctance to acknowledge the contributions and advancements of non-European civilizations often stems from a reluctance to challenge the long-standing narrative of white supremacy.
  - okokwhatever 3y ago
    My God... again and again and again the same backward concept. The academic disciplines tend to be linked to the context of the world in the specific moment of the history. It's a bad practice to observe the past with the lenses of the future but to use it to create a better perception (a wider one) To destroy a past view is to lose the lessons learned.
  - shmageggy 3y ago
    Without the GPT-speak: > Archaeology has historically assumed that European civilization was more significant and advanced than others, a view possibly rooted in ethnocentrism and racism, but findings like these challenge that assumption. Please just say what you want to say without pasting a bunch of fluff from a chat bot.
    - 3y ago
- patrickmcnamara 3y ago
  So obvious that comments on Hacker News would be about this instead of the found city.
- mc32 3y ago
  Ever since Pizarro went searching, the legends of lost civilizations have been in the minds of explorers. Lots of explorers came up empty and the legends were thought to be hokum by supposed experts, so yeah, I don’t understand the narrative. Not only that but neither the Chinese nor South Africans, etc., have a different take or narrative that’s more globocebtric. I mean, I don’t think even the natives of the Amazon today have a better understanding than European, American, Asian or African archeologists regarding any such ancient civilization. It’s a really tired trope.
- xtiansimon 3y ago
  Am I reading the same article? I don’t understand what you’re referring to with ‘problematic’. I thought I was reading a puff piece about some scholars digging holes in the jungle hoping to get people excited so they can get more funding. Silly little 800 word articles like this are easier to see them for what they are when printed on newspaper.
- quesera 3y ago
  I read it differently. For context, I am not triggered by people pointing out that every culture has its own biases and myopias, and just like a fish in water, sometimes they are unaware. Honestly, this seems like one of few absolute truths in the world: perspective is always incomplete. Here's how I read it: The quotes are from two archaeologist/anthropologists who specialize in the Amazon and ancient Amazonian culture. They are extremely familiar with the general level of knowledge of their audience regarding their specialties. > "This is older than any other site we know in the Amazon. We have a Eurocentric view of civilisation, but this shows we have to change our idea about what is culture and civilisation," says Prof Stephen Rostain, director of investigation at the National Centre for Scientific Research in France, who led the research. > "It changes the way we see Amazonian cultures. Most people picture small groups, probably naked, living in huts and clearing land - this shows ancient people lived in complicated urban societies," says co-author Antoine Dorison. The use of "we" is the polite way of saying "most people who will be reading this article". It's not moralizing. It's pointing out that what most readers learned in school a few decades ago (and still believe) is incomplete, and we keep learning new extents of its incompleteness -- and the missing parts of the story make everything much more interesting. They are excited by this and want to share. This paper is a pretty big deal, and they should be excited. I'd love to know as much about Amazonian civilizations, architectures, societies, etc as I do Aztec, Maya, and Inca.
  - walledstance 3y ago
    Well said and composed analysis. I think you have a clear grasp on authorial intent. Thank you.
- sudden_dystopia 3y ago
  I agree that this is not a Eurocentric issue, take Egyptology for example. They know there are secret chambers in the great pyramid, but the Egyptians have no desire to really look further. Western Egyptologists just follow suit. Nobody bothers to take seriously the strange, water like erosion around the Sphinx. Or that perfectly symmetrical urns and statues were carved out of granite. How does one carve the interior cavity of an urn with the most rudimentary of tools? The pyramids are not even the most interesting aspect but yet we all just shrug and say nothing to see here, Egyptians included.
  - quesera 3y ago
    As a layman, simple explanations for your points spring to mind. 1. An exhaustive understanding of the pyramids and secret chambers would be detrimental to the Egyptian mythos. Egypt owns the pyramids. Western Egyptologists need Egyptian cooperation to learn anything new. 2. Sand-filled wind behaves much like an abrasive liquid. There is more sand in the bottom of a sand-filled wind than in the top. 3. Rotation creates surprising perfection, especially when wielded by skilled artisans. It's rarely the tools that bring results.
  - klyrs 3y ago
    > How does one carve the interior cavity of an urn with the most rudimentary of tools? Abrasive grit. You can make a saw out of a plank with grit -- the grit will eat the plank faster than stone, but it can cut through granite because quartz in the sand is harder than granite. Similarly, you can make a drill with a dowel and grit. The step from drill to lathe is pretty obvious to me. And don't forget time. People with primitive technology have an astounding amount of patience compared to soft-handed technologists. Speaking as a soft-handed technologist, of course.
- jl6 3y ago
  The full quote is even stranger. > We have a Eurocentric view of civilisation, but this shows we have to change our idea about what is culture and civilisation Why do we have to change our idea about what is culture and civilisation? They found a city with buildings and roads. That's an entirely traditional Eurocentric definition of civilization.
  - trompetenaccoun 3y ago
    It doesn't make logical sense but this is currently a big meme in social sciences. If you follow anthropology you'll see many similar quotes so I'm not surprised it spilled over into archaeology as well by now. The best part is when you look them up, it turns out the researcher who said this is European, from France.
- deleted 3y ago
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alentred 3y ago
This article has a few images that better demonstrate what is meant by "city" or "multiple sites": https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ancient-urban-complex-ecuador-amazon-laser https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ancient-urban-complex-ec...
unsupp0rted 3y ago
> Prof Rostain says he was warned against this research at the start of his career because scientists believed no ancient groups had lived in the Amazon.
uticus 3y ago
Recommended reading: "The Lost City of Z" by David Grann (https://www.amazon.com/Lost-City-Deadly-Obsession-Amazon/dp/1400078458/ref=asc_df_1400078458&mcid=59c578a50a633104be5ab321b8b9c47e?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=79852149837958&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583451676511066&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/Lost-City-Deadly-Obsession-Amazon/dp/...) Ref also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_City_of_Z https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_City_of_Z for more info about Col. Fawcett and this story.
- aduitsis 3y ago
  Why is this downvoted? It's 100% relevant. David Grann is a well known New Yorker contributor and, before the book, has also written an article named "Lost City of Z": https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/09/19/the-lost-city-of-z https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/09/19/the-lost-city-...
genman 3y ago
I dont' know what the hell he means with this Eurocentric view. We know a lot about ancient civilizations in Mesopotamia, Egypt, we know about Göbekli Tepe that is from Neolithic period, we know also about many African and Asian civilizations. We are also well aware about ancient settlements in America, especially in the Amazon area. That a professor with an European name doesn't know much about this is his own personal problem but him peddling this false information and BBC going along with this creates a larger issue.
PM_me_your_math 3y ago
I just wish there were more images. There are usually only one or two on this types of articles.
coldacid 3y ago
How can they just claim the city's been "found" when it's been known about for half a century? All they did (that's relevant to the article) is a recent LIDAR survey of a site they've been digging on for 25 years.
motohagiography 3y ago
If lower Manhattan were discovered, would it also be characterized as being for "ceremonial purposes" that would have a "very powerful meaning", perhaps linked to a ceremony or belief.
- porkbeer 3y ago
  Well much of it is, such as the wire surrounding it. Superstitions still shape our modern world more than we often realize.

146 points by mvdwoord 3y ago

It’s really tiring to see that every new finding shows us how everything is Eurocentric and problematic. What is the point of putting that vapid moralising into the article? It’s not even that true. Europeans have been searching for cities in the Amazon for hundreds of years and found evidence that they existed. 2003 - Lost cities of the Amazon revealed: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna3077413 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna3077413 2008 - Ancient Amazon Actually Highly Urbanized: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lost-amazon-cities/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lost-amazon-citie... 2019 - Long lost cities in the Amazon were once home to millions of people: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132130-300-long-lost-cities-in-the-amazon-were-once-home-to-millions-of-people/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132130-300-long-los...

primitivesuave 3y ago
I was about to start writing exactly this, but didn't want to get into an argument with another Internet stranger about what the unspecified "we" (i.e. the general population) believes nowadays. Even the original explorers of that region, back when it was known as Verzin, were quite objective in their reports. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_First_Voyage_Round_the_World/Pigafetta%27s_Account_of_Magellan%27s_Voyage https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_First_Voyage_Round_the_Wo... The journalistic style at the BBC is to push an outdated colonization narrative onto everything, and I am also quite tired by it.
- palmfacehn 3y ago
  The topic is interesting. I would also prefer a less politicized source.
- defrost 3y ago
  Pigafetta's Account of Magellan's Voyage may well be an objective report on what was seen in 1519. The BBC article is on city structures that date to a full thousand years earlier. If had been written, Pigafetta's Account of Magellan's Ship fitting and Departure wouldn't neccesarily shed light on the state of civilization in Portugal in 500 BCE.
  - primitivesuave 3y ago
    I brought up Pigafetta's account to point out that even five centuries ago, people were capable of making fascinating discoveries and simply stating the objective truth about what they found. Nowadays, the announcement of a discovery is usually paired with hyperbolic statements (e.g. "this changes everything we know about X") and veiled social commentary (e.g. "there is a widely-held Eurocentric view of civilization"). Had the sentence read more like "some academics have a Eurocentric view of civilization", I would probably take that argument at its face. But nowadays, with improvements in education and the vast quantity of good information available to anyone on the Internet, telling your readers that "we are Eurocentric in our view of culture and civilization" is tantamount to calling them ignorant.
    - defrost 3y ago
      Sure, it's absolutely qualifications all the way down; > five centuries ago, people were capable of making fascinating discoveries and simply stating [their perceived] objective truth about what they found. As I hope we can agree, Pigafetta with the best intentions in the "New World" was hardly capable of objectively writing anything other than his own perception .. that whole "New World" thing itself is a bit of a tell about contemporary writings on what for the subjects was the same old same old Old World they'd been living in for thousands of years. > telling your readers that "we are Eurocentric in our view of culture and civilization" is tantamount to calling them ignorant. The context for that is the BBC directly quoting Prof Stephen Rostain, director of investigation at the National Centre for Scientific Research in France. That is absolutely (I would hope) what the Prof said and it gives his opinion on the bulk of his European peers and mentors in studies of ancient civilisation. It's certainly the case that there are some acedemics who are not Eurocentric in outlook, a large number of those are out in front and in the public eye thanks to what some call "woke politics invading everywhere" but it's entirely possible there is still a dark mass of rarely popularised eurocentric professors of gravitas that create a well others are vocal about escaping from.
      - primitivesuave 3y ago
        I completely agree with your point about Pigafetta only writing from his own perspective. Perhaps a more poignant example was his naming of modern-day Guam as “Isla de Los Robos” (island of thieves) because he could only perceive their communal society as one where people are constantly stealing from each other, despite spending over a month living amongst them while giving accounts of their harmonious society. As for the general state of academia, I would opine that modern scholarship’s “dark mass” is rooted in postmodernism, and the most successful way to operate as a modern academic is to present all evidence from a racial/colonial perspective. Although your guess is as good as mine, as is the BBC’s, since people also need to contend with the potential Internet backlash from presenting their views nowadays.
cracrecry 3y ago
[flagged]
- Angostura 3y ago
  I guess you should probably take it up with Prof Stephen Rostain, director of investigation at the National Centre for Scientific Research in France, who led the research - and who the BBC quotes directly, rather that giving the journalist a kicking. If the Prof says he was warned against this research at the start of his career because scientists believed no ancient groups had lived in the Amazon. Then this is clearly an interesting new angle. Sorry that you found it too "woke".
  - thworp 3y ago
    If you just read the quote in the article it does look a bit silly. The reason why people warned him and why the field of history was so "eurocentric" is because it is extremely difficult to find evidence in the Amazon. Nobody doubts the existence of Tenochtitlan or Cuzco because we have both written sources and archeological evidence. In this context, complaining about eurocentrism does come across as motivated reasoning.
    - Angostura 3y ago
      You'll excuse me if I think the Professor probably knows a bit more about the field and its internal politics than the commenters here.
- piva00 3y ago
  > The BBC has been colonised by woke people, like other organisations like Scientific American or US top Universities. I don't live in the USA, can you clarify what "woke" means exactly?
  - clarionbell 3y ago
    That depends on who you ask. The term itself tends to be defined by extremes. Some say that woke are those who consider police brutality a problem. Others say that woke are those who believe that if you are victim, everything you do is justified, and that your ethnic/sexual/cultural identity is the most important thing about you. If you want to get better idea of how divisive the whole issue is look up comedian Bill Maher on youtube. He is pretty left, but he's very anti-woke.
marbletiles 3y ago
The "vapid moralising" is a quote from the person who lead the research. It's in the article because it is the opinion of the person whose work the article is about. Did you want the author to try and create false balance by finding someone to say "we don't have a eurocentric view of civilisation and this finding is nothing new"?
- quonn 3y ago
  How does the researcher know what view „we“ have? The article should omit this statement.
  - angra_mainyu 3y ago
    Exactly. I'll never understand the zeal some people have for self-flagellating or being overly PC.
    - r0salesr 3y ago
      It might have to do with those individuals believing this behavior secures some kind of overwhelming safety or acceptance in their environment.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - notahacker 3y ago
    I assume that having worked as an academic in the field of archaeology for the past three decades, the researcher is in a considerably better position to opine on the focus of archaeological research and academic consensus about the Amazon than the average software developer angrily dismissing his views as "woke"...
    - dustfinger 3y ago
      > the average software developer angrily dismissing his views as "woke"... What is this supposed to mean? Why are you suggesting that the average "software developer" would view the subject's expressed point of view as "woke" as opposed to a person from any other occupation? Why the hostility towards software developers?
NoImmatureAdHom 3y ago
To add some context, even if Rostain doesn't actually believe the vapid nonsense about Eurocentrism etc., he is part of a field where it will be costly to not perform these ablutions. Archaeology / Anthropology have a very fraught relationship with science and reason, sadly.
Solstinox 3y ago
When you work in a temple, you can’t just skip the customary prayer and blessing before the meal.
carlosjobim 3y ago
Now try to watch any nature documentary to calm your nerves after a day in this stressful modern life, and be hit with the mandatory climate change doomsday warnings. Usually at the end of every documentary, so to mitigate any risk that the watcher would have relaxed for a good nights sleep from watching nature.
- angra_mainyu 3y ago
  I recall a conversation I had with a climate researcher some years ago in France that left me surprised. To paraphrase, they explained that forecasting a system as complex as the climate is difficult and naturally leads to many different outcomes. One subset of those outcomes, is that conditions would arise such that plant development is accelerated, something like a junglification (my word, probably butchering it). Here's an article related to this, that links to research: https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/430230-accelerated-rates-of-change-in-earth-s-vegetation-go-back-thousands-of-years https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/430230-accelerated-rates...
- bmikaili 3y ago
  ??? How is this related? Are we on facebook?
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    It's loosely related to how people always have to repeat some idea, almost in a ritualistic way.
kushiteKing 3y ago
The field of archaeology, along with many other academic disciplines, has historically been influenced by Eurocentric perspectives. This Eurocentrism in archaeology and history is deeply intertwined with the legacies of colonialism and racism. It's important to recognize that the Eurocentric view often incorrectly posits European history and culture as more significant or advanced than others, a perspective that has been perpetuated for centuries. The roots of Eurocentrism can be traced back to ideologies like white supremacy, which historically asserted the superiority of white Europeans over other races. This belief in racial hierarchy, unfortunately, influenced various scientific and cultural fields, including the interpretation of archaeological findings. For instance, the concept of phrenology, now discredited, was once used to claim inherent intellectual and moral superiority of certain races over others, particularly to justify the superiority of whites over other races. It's crucial to understand that human civilization has a rich and diverse origin, much of which began in regions outside of Europe. The earliest known civilizations and significant cultural developments originated in various parts of the world, including Africa, Asia, and the Americas. The reluctance to acknowledge the contributions and advancements of non-European civilizations often stems from a reluctance to challenge the long-standing narrative of white supremacy.
- okokwhatever 3y ago
  My God... again and again and again the same backward concept. The academic disciplines tend to be linked to the context of the world in the specific moment of the history. It's a bad practice to observe the past with the lenses of the future but to use it to create a better perception (a wider one) To destroy a past view is to lose the lessons learned.
- shmageggy 3y ago
  Without the GPT-speak: > Archaeology has historically assumed that European civilization was more significant and advanced than others, a view possibly rooted in ethnocentrism and racism, but findings like these challenge that assumption. Please just say what you want to say without pasting a bunch of fluff from a chat bot.
  - 3y ago
patrickmcnamara 3y ago
So obvious that comments on Hacker News would be about this instead of the found city.
mc32 3y ago
Ever since Pizarro went searching, the legends of lost civilizations have been in the minds of explorers. Lots of explorers came up empty and the legends were thought to be hokum by supposed experts, so yeah, I don’t understand the narrative. Not only that but neither the Chinese nor South Africans, etc., have a different take or narrative that’s more globocebtric. I mean, I don’t think even the natives of the Amazon today have a better understanding than European, American, Asian or African archeologists regarding any such ancient civilization. It’s a really tired trope.
xtiansimon 3y ago
Am I reading the same article? I don’t understand what you’re referring to with ‘problematic’. I thought I was reading a puff piece about some scholars digging holes in the jungle hoping to get people excited so they can get more funding. Silly little 800 word articles like this are easier to see them for what they are when printed on newspaper.
quesera 3y ago
I read it differently. For context, I am not triggered by people pointing out that every culture has its own biases and myopias, and just like a fish in water, sometimes they are unaware. Honestly, this seems like one of few absolute truths in the world: perspective is always incomplete. Here's how I read it: The quotes are from two archaeologist/anthropologists who specialize in the Amazon and ancient Amazonian culture. They are extremely familiar with the general level of knowledge of their audience regarding their specialties. > "This is older than any other site we know in the Amazon. We have a Eurocentric view of civilisation, but this shows we have to change our idea about what is culture and civilisation," says Prof Stephen Rostain, director of investigation at the National Centre for Scientific Research in France, who led the research. > "It changes the way we see Amazonian cultures. Most people picture small groups, probably naked, living in huts and clearing land - this shows ancient people lived in complicated urban societies," says co-author Antoine Dorison. The use of "we" is the polite way of saying "most people who will be reading this article". It's not moralizing. It's pointing out that what most readers learned in school a few decades ago (and still believe) is incomplete, and we keep learning new extents of its incompleteness -- and the missing parts of the story make everything much more interesting. They are excited by this and want to share. This paper is a pretty big deal, and they should be excited. I'd love to know as much about Amazonian civilizations, architectures, societies, etc as I do Aztec, Maya, and Inca.
- walledstance 3y ago
  Well said and composed analysis. I think you have a clear grasp on authorial intent. Thank you.
sudden_dystopia 3y ago
I agree that this is not a Eurocentric issue, take Egyptology for example. They know there are secret chambers in the great pyramid, but the Egyptians have no desire to really look further. Western Egyptologists just follow suit. Nobody bothers to take seriously the strange, water like erosion around the Sphinx. Or that perfectly symmetrical urns and statues were carved out of granite. How does one carve the interior cavity of an urn with the most rudimentary of tools? The pyramids are not even the most interesting aspect but yet we all just shrug and say nothing to see here, Egyptians included.
- quesera 3y ago
  As a layman, simple explanations for your points spring to mind. 1. An exhaustive understanding of the pyramids and secret chambers would be detrimental to the Egyptian mythos. Egypt owns the pyramids. Western Egyptologists need Egyptian cooperation to learn anything new. 2. Sand-filled wind behaves much like an abrasive liquid. There is more sand in the bottom of a sand-filled wind than in the top. 3. Rotation creates surprising perfection, especially when wielded by skilled artisans. It's rarely the tools that bring results.
- klyrs 3y ago
  > How does one carve the interior cavity of an urn with the most rudimentary of tools? Abrasive grit. You can make a saw out of a plank with grit -- the grit will eat the plank faster than stone, but it can cut through granite because quartz in the sand is harder than granite. Similarly, you can make a drill with a dowel and grit. The step from drill to lathe is pretty obvious to me. And don't forget time. People with primitive technology have an astounding amount of patience compared to soft-handed technologists. Speaking as a soft-handed technologist, of course.
jl6 3y ago
The full quote is even stranger. > We have a Eurocentric view of civilisation, but this shows we have to change our idea about what is culture and civilisation Why do we have to change our idea about what is culture and civilisation? They found a city with buildings and roads. That's an entirely traditional Eurocentric definition of civilization.
- trompetenaccoun 3y ago
  It doesn't make logical sense but this is currently a big meme in social sciences. If you follow anthropology you'll see many similar quotes so I'm not surprised it spilled over into archaeology as well by now. The best part is when you look them up, it turns out the researcher who said this is European, from France.
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alentred 3y ago

This article has a few images that better demonstrate what is meant by "city" or "multiple sites": https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ancient-urban-complex-ecuador-amazon-laser https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ancient-urban-complex-ec...

unsupp0rted 3y ago

> Prof Rostain says he was warned against this research at the start of his career because scientists believed no ancient groups had lived in the Amazon.

uticus 3y ago

Recommended reading: "The Lost City of Z" by David Grann (https://www.amazon.com/Lost-City-Deadly-Obsession-Amazon/dp/1400078458/ref=asc_df_1400078458&mcid=59c578a50a633104be5ab321b8b9c47e?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=79852149837958&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583451676511066&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/Lost-City-Deadly-Obsession-Amazon/dp/...) Ref also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_City_of_Z https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_City_of_Z for more info about Col. Fawcett and this story.

aduitsis 3y ago
Why is this downvoted? It's 100% relevant. David Grann is a well known New Yorker contributor and, before the book, has also written an article named "Lost City of Z": https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/09/19/the-lost-city-of-z https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/09/19/the-lost-city-...

genman 3y ago

I dont' know what the hell he means with this Eurocentric view. We know a lot about ancient civilizations in Mesopotamia, Egypt, we know about Göbekli Tepe that is from Neolithic period, we know also about many African and Asian civilizations. We are also well aware about ancient settlements in America, especially in the Amazon area. That a professor with an European name doesn't know much about this is his own personal problem but him peddling this false information and BBC going along with this creates a larger issue.

PM_me_your_math 3y ago

I just wish there were more images. There are usually only one or two on this types of articles.

coldacid 3y ago

How can they just claim the city's been "found" when it's been known about for half a century? All they did (that's relevant to the article) is a recent LIDAR survey of a site they've been digging on for 25 years.

motohagiography 3y ago

If lower Manhattan were discovered, would it also be characterized as being for "ceremonial purposes" that would have a "very powerful meaning", perhaps linked to a ceremony or belief.

porkbeer 3y ago
Well much of it is, such as the wire surrounding it. Superstitions still shape our modern world more than we often realize.