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I get why Brittany's mad: Cloudflare appears to be handling this about as bad as possible. But those two HR randos aren't gonna have anything worthwhile to say
by IvyMike 3y ago
I get why Brittany's mad: Cloudflare appears to be handling this about as bad as possible. But those two HR randos aren't gonna have anything worthwhile to say, either.
I don't want to be judgmental of Brittany because it's a sucky call to have to take. But my recommendation in this situation is to say "I disagree with that assessment of my performance, but I understand you are terminating my employment. What details do we need to handle with any severance, and where do I send my laptop." And then, as is tradition, go get day drunk.
- throwxdf 3y agoOn top lossing your job, get drunk and loose your kidneys too. :(
- ehPReth 3y agothat doesn't happen from getting drunk once or twice?
- aaomidi 3y agoThis is amazing video for making a legal case against Cloudflare. Cloudflare took a stupid, unnecessary risk here by trying to put this on performance when they haven't documented it.
- whalesalad 3y agoWhat case? At will employment is a thing. You can terminate people with absolutely no reason if you want, most of the time.
- virtuous_sloth 3y agoAmerica is a pretend country with pretend rights.
- bsder 3y agoIn California, you sometimes have to announce layoffs. This strengthens a class action lawsuit that this is a layoff and not a termination for performance. There will be penalties associated with that. You can simply say "We are terminating your employment." However, that generally means that you cannot demand back relocation, bonuses, stocks, etc. and you're going to have to cough up equivalent severance to everybody else--otherwise you're staring at a discrimination lawsuit.
- etchalon 3y agoThere are a host of laws regarding termination, even in at will states, especially for companies of Cloudflare's size. Giving an invalid reason that is unsupported by facts is generally a strong place for a lawyer to assert "wrongful termination" and invoke those laws.
- NicoJuicy 3y agoThat's a false accusation. They gave a reason: performance and the girl mentioned to have 0 sales + 3 opportunities. I wouldn't bet a penny on that lawsuit to win.
- aaomidi 3y agoThen she should’ve had that communicated to her earlier.
- NicoJuicy 3y agoWe don't know specifics. If she's doing all the things she should do ( as she mentions), but lacks technical knowledge for a technical product. Than if she asks feedback, she'll get points for the effort. But concerning technical knowledge, there's not much to do in a short period to get an employee profitable in a lot of cases. Definitely with a product like Cloudflare. And saying you lack basic knowledge, is very hard to do/fix. Because the knowledge is not solely Cloudflare related. It's development, website, networking, ... There's a difficult gray area on what training someone needs for technical things. Even if the employee is motivated. They won't be profitable within a year. Where to start? Where does it end?
- etchalon 3y agoThey gave a reason. That doesn't mean the facts supported that reason. The employee didn't believe they did. Not closing a deal in your first month of sales is not exactly unheard of or even uncommon. Either way, WT lawsuits don't generally "win or lose". They settle.
- 3y ago
- mangosteenjuice 3y agoYeah, you can terminate them with absolutely no reason, and then get sued. Read up on how employment laws actually work. There are all sorts of factors you aren't considering, which play into the legal realm at hand here. Factors like employee count. Yes, even in at-will states. You think that major corporations do PIPs and pay severances out of kindness?
- tracker1 3y agoRules for layoffs vary greatly from state to state.
- blitzar 3y ago> At will employment is a thing. You can terminate people with absolutely no reason if you want, most of the time. In which case fire them with no reason. If however you waive that choice and offer a specific reason then you probably should make the chosen reason true unless you want to be sued for wrongful dismissal.
- epolanski 3y agoYou see? Damn if you do, damn if you don't. It's then better to just fire and give no motivation whatsoever.
- aaomidi 3y agoExcept this reason was most likely a fabrication due to the fact that they never communicated performance issues in the past. Cloudflare lied. It’s plain and simple.
- epolanski 3y agoOr maybe they did and she didn't tell in the TikToks? Don't believe everything you see on the internet. Be smarter than that, form opinions based on as many facts as possible, not only partial, biased, information.
- aaomidi 3y agoI have more reason to believe this person than I do cloudflare.
- epolanski 3y agoPractice being skeptical.
- aaomidi 3y agoYou should probably do the same thing. Given the information, and given what I know about Cloudflare’s internals and how they have behaved, and given how Matthew Prince has been in the past. It is unreasonable to think Cloudflare is in the right here.
- op00to 3y agoIf you give a reason, it must be true. Otherwise it opens you up to "well, what was the real reason then?"
- cvak 3y agoTo me it sounds like excelent video for making a legal case againts Britanny, I'd be very upset if someone would be secretly recording a meeting with me as a HR person. Guess that depends on a state, but good luck finding another corporate job.
- A_D_E_P_T 3y agoShe's in Georgia, and Georgia, like most states, is a "one-party consent" state for purposes of making audio recordings of conversations. They'd have no case at all.
- yreg 3y agoSo you are free to record work meetings and post them on TikTok?
- cheeselip420 3y agoLegally, yes. But she could experience some consequences if future employers don't feel great about this.
- yreg 3y agoWhat about NDAs? What hashtag should I follow to watch more US corp internal meetings?
- westpfelia 3y agoHow did she break an NDA with this video? You are right you cant just record and out out there just ANY corporate material. But you getting fired? This aint it.
- cvak 3y agoMaking them? Sure. Sharing them on chinese owned social network? I'd be very very surprised.
- songbird23 3y agoI will save this so i know what to say just in case
- judge2020 3y agoPresumably these Cloudflare HR employees do have the data for why this person was laid off, and they might even have it in front of them, but yeah legally they can't give them any more specifics. As far as I'm aware, evidence of good performance could be used to strengthen their case to collect unemployment (if Cloudflare tries to fight Brittany's unemployment claim); it could also be used as evidence in a discrimination lawsuit. But given that Brittany said that many other team members also got invited to 15 minute calls with HR, there's good evidence that CF didn't discriminate, but it's also evidence that this could've been a mass, quiet layoff. Although it sounds like the simple fact that her clients backed out at the last minute could be enough evidence for poor performance, even if the sales were entirely managed properly before that point.
- CaliforniaKarl 3y ago> … legally they can't give them any more specifics. Could you please provide a source for that? That can be an important distinction for an employee. For example, when answering the question "Why did you leave your previous job?" It's important for the now ex-employee to have accurat information.
- judge2020 3y agoI elaborated on that - mainly just that anything HR says can be used as evidence in wrongful termination lawsuits; even if nothing happened, it could be enough to trigger further discovery, which ultimately means spending tons of money for the company in legal fees. Being a top performer then getting fired for poor performance is suspicious in any case.
- alephxyz 3y agothey're wrong. Employees in California have the right to request their HR files including performance reviews and anything used to determine their termination. https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_righttoinspectpersonnelfiles.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_righttoinspectpersonnelfiles...
- 3y ago
- bananapub 3y ago> But those two HR randos aren't gonna have anything worthwhile to say, either. companies explicitly construct situations like this such that the person being screwed doesn't have access to anyone making a decision, just other peons implementing them.
- XezCvm3zeLtJ 3y agoI've had to fire people before. One time it was performance, but performance can be very hard to measure sometimes, so all I had was a vague "making too many mistakes" etc. This person had been on a PIP for a while, and had over a year to get it, but it just didn't work out. But I didn't have anything more concrete. The other one was literally just "our boss told us we had to fire one person, and it's you. Sorry. No better reason." I feel like companies should just be more upfront about things like "hey, we over hired. This sucks. But you're fired. Here's a generous severance."
- gumballindie 3y agoNah, she did well by frustrating the process. Next time they’ll think twice before gaslighting and humiliating an employee. Telling her she was getting fired due to her own performance is just that. In my books she did well, hope she starts a gig on her own to never have to deal with NPCs such as those two. They feed on people’s misery.
- ajmurmann 3y agoNo need to dehumanize anyone
- dylan604 3y agoWhy not? It is precisely what these HR people are doing to every person they call.
- sanderjd 3y agoBecause they're people who are also just trying to do a job. I'm sure there are some sadists out there who take pleasure in this kind of meeting, but I'm just as sure that for every one of those, there are a hundred (or a thousand) people for whom this is the worst part of their job, who go home and hug their kids with watery eyes at the end of a day that was horrible for them. You aren't mad at them, you're mad at the people making the decisions that are upstream of these meetings.
- krainboltgreene 3y ago> Because they're people who are also just trying to do a job. Then they should not do that job.
- sanderjd 3y agoWhat do you suggest for making this statement realistic? People who work in HR do useful things. I have leaned on "people operations" support in most companies I've worked for, they do recruitment and policies on employee behavior and performance management and a bunch of other things. This is all valuable work. I'm glad it's not what I do for work, but it would be a much suckier world if nobody chose to do this work. But they are also asked by company leadership to be the buffer, to be the messenger that gets "shot", when bad or even necessary but incredibly painful decisions are made. It's part of the expectations of the people who hire them, that they'll do that. So what do you suggest? Do all the other useful stuff, but then when asked to be that buffer in these shitty moments, they should quit and find a new job? What should they say when asked why they quit? Is it ethical to lie about it, or do they tell a prospective new employer that there is an expected part of the role they're applying for that they are not willing to do? Or is your suggestion something better? Like perhaps there could be a professional guild for HR professionals, and they could have a code of ethics that makes it clear that this is not something they will do. I think that would be pretty great! But that would be a much bigger and entirely different project that individuals quitting in protest. Or perhaps your suggestion is, actually, that there should be nobody working in HR, that it is not a useful function. In that case, no, that's wrong, I've worked with many smart technically inclined people who think this, and I've worked at companies that are led by people who believe this, and it sucks. I'm all for shifting the expectation of who has the responsibility for delivering the news of shitty decisions onto the management that made the decisions, but there has to be some theory of the case for how to get there from here.
- kqr 3y agoIs this a US thing where the company doesn't want to give any reasons for firing someone because that can be used in a lawsuit against them?
- koito17 3y agoI would say so. This video is a perfect demonstration of America's "at-will employment" culture. It's extremely asymmetrical, too. Companies can fire you at any moment, for any reason (with or without cause!)... yet it is considered rude for employees to not provide ample notice when deciding to voluntarily quit.
- mysterydip 3y agoEven worse, some companies will terminate you at some point during the (customary two) weeks before you quit, throwing off your schedule and potentially pay.
- photonbeam 3y agoThis needs to change, no more notice
- noirbot 3y agoI mean, you can do that. There's literally nothing stopping you except the opinion of your team of you. I generally give notice, not because I give a single fuck about the company, but because I like my coworkers and want to make sure I tie off my work before leaving so I don't make their lives harder. Worker solidarity doesn't mean you fuck over capital any time you can, even if it makes your fellow workers' lives harder. The company cares way less about you quitting suddenly than your coworkers do. That's exactly why they don't care about laying people off with no notice. You may get faux revolutionary warm fuzzies by quitting to screw the man, but you're probably screwing your friends more than your foes.
- sanderjd 3y agoMeh, in my view, this is sort of a "two wrongs don't make a right" situation. I don't want to leave without notice. Not for the company, but for me. Those final weeks are nice, useful. I can tie up some loose ends that have been bugging me, say goodbye to people, all that good stuff. And I keep getting paid during that time, for honestly very easy (low stakes and low stress) work. It's win win for me. Of course I know the company might escort me out when I give notice instead of letting me serve out the time, and of course that would hurt my feelings, but when I regained my composure I would see that it reflects poorly on them, not on me, if they do that lame nonsense. So I think it's really sad for companies (and also employees) that for whatever reasons they don't feel they can give notice in this same way. But I certainly don't want to give up something that I value for myself, out of spite. That makes no sense to me.
- ChatGTP 3y agoWhat a load of nonsense. People sacrifice a lot of personal time to ramp up in a job. This is why she is emotional. Then she was told she was doing well..by her manager. Now her investment is bogus and it sounds like she will not be compensated at all for it? I mean you're advocating she asks for compensation, when they tell her no? Then what? Not sure who you are but you're delusional if you think this is ok. "Go get drunk?", ok
- IvyMike 3y agoNot sure who I am either, but in no way did I say "this is ok". I'm saying there's nothing to be gained to prolonging the talk with two drones from HR. Maybe I'm missing something. What's your best case scenario for how the call goes? What is the biggest potential upside?
- ChatGTP 3y agoCompanies should be legally required to provide feedback and data if they're firing someone based on "performance" reasons. This isn't about the conversation, it's that your attitude means we should just let corporations off for doing bad / stupid things at scale. This is not going to result in a good society. This company has seen 30%+ year on year growth, there is no need to treat people like this, especially when they're doing so well. This type of thing can be very violating, do you not understand that?
- krainboltgreene 3y ago> but in no way did I say "this is ok". Suggesting placid acceptance is a way of implying that it's OK.
- cjbprime 3y ago> What is the biggest potential upside? Emotional well-being? Being able to show love to yourself through the knowledge that you stood up for the value of your labor and dedication when it was being unfairly dismissed? Job loss is significantly traumatic, especially in the US where it is linked to the ability to receive medical care. There's a class of response that sounds like "there was no point in doing this, you should just never trust a company, that's what I do". I am not saying you are being that person. But when someone does do that, it gives me the feeling that I am experiencing a much less healthy response than this one.
- kqr 3y agoI get that this type of situation is emotionally difficult, but advice for anyone willing to take it: if the point is getting information, a confrontational "you can't do this to me" type tone is probably less helpful than a curious "you owe me nothing but if you want to brighten my day a little here's what I'm curious about" attitude.
- dns_snek 3y agoI don't think anyone being fired for bullshit reasons is going to be in the mood to try to butter up some corporate drones delivering the news.
- kqr 3y agoDefinitely not! Faking that mood is one of the most difficult skills of being a good negotiator.
- j4yav 3y agoThere was obviously no information to get. There were just two clueless people who were paid to fire people they didn't know for reasons they didn't know, and repeat platitudes until they can successfully end the call.
- rockemsockem 3y agoAnd what she's did is establish that they have nothing of worth to say and make them as uncomfortable as possible throughout the whole thing. Those both seem very worthwhile.
- november84 3y agoAnd it's on video so cheers to that.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- cameldrv 3y agoYes, this would be the optimal vulcan way to take this. In the human world, peoples stake a chunk of their identity with the company they work for, and when they get fired, that part of their identity is lost. The right, human way to deal with this as the employer is to say that you're sorry and to truly empathize with the people they're firing. Unfortunately, HR doesn't want to do this anymore, maybe for legal reasons, or maybe because they're just emotionally lazy.
- hartleybrody 3y ago>that you're sorry and to truly empathize with the people they're firing Serious question: what should have been said on this call to do that? There was a lot of "I'm sorry you feel that way" seeming to come from the HR representative, but it seemed to miss the mark.
- hn_go_brrrrr 3y agoThey missed the mark because "I'm sorry you feel that way" is the pseudo-apology equivalent of giving someone the finger. It's attempting to shift the blame onto the recipient for feeling bad, rather than the speaker actually admitting fault.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]