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Don't let yourself get caught up in these details. The problem is the unreformed healthcare system; these are just more symptoms of it. It's like the old, faili

Don't let yourself get caught up in these details. The problem is the unreformed healthcare system; these are just more symptoms of it. It's like the old, failing server at work - people say the problem is the power supply, the outdated driver, etc. - it's not; the problem is we haven't installed a new server. We all can see the US healthcare system is awful. If you aren't doing anything about it, the problem is you. The politicians against healthcare reform are well-known; if you can't persuade people to vote them out, you're not trying (following the example of political leaders who don't try). (And spare me the helplessness routine - that's for losers - generations of Americans and other democracies have managed to get things done.) EDIT: People need to stop debating whether they are powerless, and the 999 ways they are powerless, the hopelessness of powerlessness - and start posting solutions. Another thought: It's another institution or market being funded by the wealthy (donations) for the wealthy (those who can afford it).

kuczmama 3y ago
> The politicians against healthcare reform are well-known Who are they specifically?
- verisimi 3y ago
  Just vote them out. The medical system is the only issue that matters. /s
- hasty_pudding 3y ago
  We get to pick from the politicians that the DNC and the RNC allow us to pick from.
- paxys 3y ago
  The answer is the majority of the Republican party and their electorate, but just saying that will get you a barrage of downvotes on HN and other similar forums. We get the system we deserve..
  - horns4lyfe 3y ago
    Well we got Democrat-led reform and it’s arguably worse.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - yunwal 3y ago
    I generally vote Democrat, but there is no American political party putting serious support toward a sensible healthcare system.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      It was top billing in Democrat policy for decades, from Clinton through Clinton, and Biden did some too. Top billing in Republican policy was to oppose it and undermine it - remember the endless, pointless, virtue-signaling votes during Obama's administration by Congressional Republicans to kill Obama's healthcare plan. Remember he got it through on the slimist margin, through procedural maneuver, with (no? one?) Republican votes. Organize and get the ball rolling. What are the problems? How do we solve them? You're not a customer or a victim; you tell them what they should be doing. Don't worry, most politicians will do anything to get some votes!
      - yunwal 3y ago
        > Remember the endless… I remember how the ACA was essentially a giant gift to the insurance industry, and that despite being mandated in most states, only increased the insurance rate by a few percent. Oh, and the vast majority of the increase in insurance was health plans with a $10000+ deductible. I remember how medical debt bankruptcies continued to climb after it was passed. > Don't worry, most politicians will do anything to get some votes! Before they get votes, they have to win the money primary. Then we get to decide which technocrat or self-funded billionaire candidate sounds nicest to our ear. It’s time to stop thinking you can vote your way out of this. Our leverage is our labor.
paxys 3y ago
One can blame politicians and corporations all they like, but the simple fact is that >50% of the country (and significantly more than that when accounting for skewed political representation) does not want the system to change, because to them any alternative is "socialism".
- giantg2 3y ago
  ... US government-run "socialism". Because we all know how well they run all the other programs, especially if you've dealt with healthcare they already run (military and VA). I'd imagine people would be clamoring for socialized medicine if they fixed the VA to be a shining example.
  - paxys 3y ago
    And yet Medicare has a 94% satisfaction rate.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      Sure, once they pay their tax for decades, pay their premiums and copay, and buy their supplimental private insurance (not to mention facilities diffusing some costs through higher price setting of private parties). It's not a bad system, but you can't really scale a system that takes decades to fund and requires all these other costs. Especially since this conversation is about debt to medical facilities which can still occur under Medicare (or be forced onto Medicaid). Yes, supposedly it would save the US $2 trillion over 10 years, although there is some debate on that. Edit: why disagree?
  - lazide 3y ago
    The VA may suck. But compared to 90% of private insurance, it’s amazing.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      That has not be the experiences I've heard of from just about anyone who has had both.
antisthenes 3y ago
The absolutely best (and most impactful) thing you can do as an individual is to _not pay the damn debt_ to the hospital. The illusion of impact by writing to your congressman is really just that, a proverbial carrot in front of the donkey of democracy.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > The illusion of impact by writing to your congressman is really just that, a proverbial carrot in front of the donkey of democracy. This is the hopelessness I'm talking about in the GP. It was edgy and clever to despair, but it's really for losers. Let's get serious; people are dying, democracy is dying; our predecessors managed to achieve great things and there's no excuse for us to sit on the sidelines and whine.
  - verve_rat 3y ago
    I don't disagree with your fundamental message, but as a non-American watching from the sidelines, what are you doing in a practical sense, other than whining on an internet forum?
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      I am certainly not whining! :)
  - yunwal 3y ago
    The question is what do we do about it? It sounds like you’re suggesting we can vote our issues away, but the voting and primary system is also corrupt. The only way forward is to leverage our economic power (by forming unions or organizing a general strike). That’s the leverage we have against power, but ultimately a lot of what that looks like is lying down and doing nothing.
crazygringo 3y ago
> If you aren't doing anything about it, the problem is you. What do you expect me to do about it? I live in a reliably blue area and it's Republicans who are blocking things like a single-payer system. So what exactly are you suggesting? Uproot my life and go move to a swing state so I can vote Democrat there? Because short of that, I don't know what. And the country is so culturally divided, it's not like there are many swing voters left who can even be convinced anymore. Republicans just don't want health care reform, so what are we supposed to do?
- amluto 3y ago
  A single-payer system doesn’t seem like a magic fix to me at all. At best, a single payer could, at least in principle, wield enough market power to improve the overall system. Just look at Medicare. Medicare has enormous market power, but it uses that power in more or less absurd ways and does not optimize patient outcomes or its own expenditures particularly effectively.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    It sure works in a bunch of other countries. I don't think there's anything special about the US that it wouldn't. And it enables things like optimizing for patient outcomes that can't be achieved with private insurance.
    - yunwal 3y ago
      The thing that is unique to the US is the level of corruption. Politicians are 100% beholden to corporate interests and nothing else. America’s dominance is entirely reliant on industry, so nothing can be done to upset the big corps.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        Is corruption actually worse in the US than in countries with single-payer? I doubt it. Let's stop making excuses for ourselves and get it done. Maggie Thatcher, who I don't pretend to love, once said (IIRC what I read, paraphrasing), 'Ask military leaders if something can be done, and they'll give you a hundred reasons that it can't. Tell them it will be done and ask how, and you'll get a hundred solutions.' Adjourn the 'can-we-will-we-it's-so-hard' meeting, and convene the 'how' meeting.
throwup238 3y ago
> generations of Americans and other democracies have managed to get things done. That's how we got here in the first place. Generations of Americans doing it the American way.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Stop blaming other people. It's us, you and me.
  - throwup238 3y ago
    Yeah but now we're hopped up on adrenochrome and too busy with our Satanic rituals to do anything.
crazygringo 3y ago
> EDIT: People need to stop debating whether they are powerless, and the 999 ways they are powerless, the hopelessness of powerlessness - and start posting solutions. Well since you're the one claiming the problem is us, which is a pretty bold accusation -- what's your solution? If you're making accusations that we're not doing enough, what are you doing then? Very curious to hear.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  That's a common comeback - and again, it's doing nothing, spinning wheels, talking on the sidelines. The distractions are endless, but there's only one thing to do - get in the game.
  - meepmorp 3y ago
    It's entirely fair to ask what you are doing if you are exhorting others to action.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      It's fair, but it's a waste of time. It's fair to pick your nose, but not responsible to your community, the people who built it, and the people who will come after you.
      - meepmorp 3y ago
        Deflecting the question while simultaneously insisting others act without questioning ("it's a waste of time," apparently to ask questions) is an act of hypocrisy. Show us that you practice what you preach - and make no mistake, you are preaching.
        wolverine876 3y ago
        You worry and complain about everything but actually doing something. Let's gooooooooo!

kuczmama 3y ago

> The politicians against healthcare reform are well-known Who are they specifically?

verisimi 3y ago
Just vote them out. The medical system is the only issue that matters. /s
hasty_pudding 3y ago
We get to pick from the politicians that the DNC and the RNC allow us to pick from.
paxys 3y ago
The answer is the majority of the Republican party and their electorate, but just saying that will get you a barrage of downvotes on HN and other similar forums. We get the system we deserve..
- horns4lyfe 3y ago
  Well we got Democrat-led reform and it’s arguably worse.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- yunwal 3y ago
  I generally vote Democrat, but there is no American political party putting serious support toward a sensible healthcare system.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    It was top billing in Democrat policy for decades, from Clinton through Clinton, and Biden did some too. Top billing in Republican policy was to oppose it and undermine it - remember the endless, pointless, virtue-signaling votes during Obama's administration by Congressional Republicans to kill Obama's healthcare plan. Remember he got it through on the slimist margin, through procedural maneuver, with (no? one?) Republican votes. Organize and get the ball rolling. What are the problems? How do we solve them? You're not a customer or a victim; you tell them what they should be doing. Don't worry, most politicians will do anything to get some votes!
    - yunwal 3y ago
      > Remember the endless… I remember how the ACA was essentially a giant gift to the insurance industry, and that despite being mandated in most states, only increased the insurance rate by a few percent. Oh, and the vast majority of the increase in insurance was health plans with a $10000+ deductible. I remember how medical debt bankruptcies continued to climb after it was passed. > Don't worry, most politicians will do anything to get some votes! Before they get votes, they have to win the money primary. Then we get to decide which technocrat or self-funded billionaire candidate sounds nicest to our ear. It’s time to stop thinking you can vote your way out of this. Our leverage is our labor.

paxys 3y ago

One can blame politicians and corporations all they like, but the simple fact is that >50% of the country (and significantly more than that when accounting for skewed political representation) does not want the system to change, because to them any alternative is "socialism".

giantg2 3y ago
... US government-run "socialism". Because we all know how well they run all the other programs, especially if you've dealt with healthcare they already run (military and VA). I'd imagine people would be clamoring for socialized medicine if they fixed the VA to be a shining example.
- paxys 3y ago
  And yet Medicare has a 94% satisfaction rate.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    Sure, once they pay their tax for decades, pay their premiums and copay, and buy their supplimental private insurance (not to mention facilities diffusing some costs through higher price setting of private parties). It's not a bad system, but you can't really scale a system that takes decades to fund and requires all these other costs. Especially since this conversation is about debt to medical facilities which can still occur under Medicare (or be forced onto Medicaid). Yes, supposedly it would save the US $2 trillion over 10 years, although there is some debate on that. Edit: why disagree?
- lazide 3y ago
  The VA may suck. But compared to 90% of private insurance, it’s amazing.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    That has not be the experiences I've heard of from just about anyone who has had both.

antisthenes 3y ago

The absolutely best (and most impactful) thing you can do as an individual is to _not pay the damn debt_ to the hospital. The illusion of impact by writing to your congressman is really just that, a proverbial carrot in front of the donkey of democracy.

wolverine876 3y ago
> The illusion of impact by writing to your congressman is really just that, a proverbial carrot in front of the donkey of democracy. This is the hopelessness I'm talking about in the GP. It was edgy and clever to despair, but it's really for losers. Let's get serious; people are dying, democracy is dying; our predecessors managed to achieve great things and there's no excuse for us to sit on the sidelines and whine.
- verve_rat 3y ago
  I don't disagree with your fundamental message, but as a non-American watching from the sidelines, what are you doing in a practical sense, other than whining on an internet forum?
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    I am certainly not whining! :)
- yunwal 3y ago
  The question is what do we do about it? It sounds like you’re suggesting we can vote our issues away, but the voting and primary system is also corrupt. The only way forward is to leverage our economic power (by forming unions or organizing a general strike). That’s the leverage we have against power, but ultimately a lot of what that looks like is lying down and doing nothing.

crazygringo 3y ago

> If you aren't doing anything about it, the problem is you. What do you expect me to do about it? I live in a reliably blue area and it's Republicans who are blocking things like a single-payer system. So what exactly are you suggesting? Uproot my life and go move to a swing state so I can vote Democrat there? Because short of that, I don't know what. And the country is so culturally divided, it's not like there are many swing voters left who can even be convinced anymore. Republicans just don't want health care reform, so what are we supposed to do?

amluto 3y ago
A single-payer system doesn’t seem like a magic fix to me at all. At best, a single payer could, at least in principle, wield enough market power to improve the overall system. Just look at Medicare. Medicare has enormous market power, but it uses that power in more or less absurd ways and does not optimize patient outcomes or its own expenditures particularly effectively.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  It sure works in a bunch of other countries. I don't think there's anything special about the US that it wouldn't. And it enables things like optimizing for patient outcomes that can't be achieved with private insurance.
  - yunwal 3y ago
    The thing that is unique to the US is the level of corruption. Politicians are 100% beholden to corporate interests and nothing else. America’s dominance is entirely reliant on industry, so nothing can be done to upset the big corps.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Is corruption actually worse in the US than in countries with single-payer? I doubt it. Let's stop making excuses for ourselves and get it done. Maggie Thatcher, who I don't pretend to love, once said (IIRC what I read, paraphrasing), 'Ask military leaders if something can be done, and they'll give you a hundred reasons that it can't. Tell them it will be done and ask how, and you'll get a hundred solutions.' Adjourn the 'can-we-will-we-it's-so-hard' meeting, and convene the 'how' meeting.

throwup238 3y ago

> generations of Americans and other democracies have managed to get things done. That's how we got here in the first place. Generations of Americans doing it the American way.

wolverine876 3y ago
Stop blaming other people. It's us, you and me.
- throwup238 3y ago
  Yeah but now we're hopped up on adrenochrome and too busy with our Satanic rituals to do anything.

crazygringo 3y ago

> EDIT: People need to stop debating whether they are powerless, and the 999 ways they are powerless, the hopelessness of powerlessness - and start posting solutions. Well since you're the one claiming the problem is us, which is a pretty bold accusation -- what's your solution? If you're making accusations that we're not doing enough, what are you doing then? Very curious to hear.

wolverine876 3y ago
That's a common comeback - and again, it's doing nothing, spinning wheels, talking on the sidelines. The distractions are endless, but there's only one thing to do - get in the game.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  It's entirely fair to ask what you are doing if you are exhorting others to action.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    It's fair, but it's a waste of time. It's fair to pick your nose, but not responsible to your community, the people who built it, and the people who will come after you.
    - meepmorp 3y ago
      Deflecting the question while simultaneously insisting others act without questioning ("it's a waste of time," apparently to ask questions) is an act of hypocrisy. Show us that you practice what you preach - and make no mistake, you are preaching.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        You worry and complain about everything but actually doing something. Let's gooooooooo!