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Better put, the relationship you have with your employer is a business relation ship. It's not personal. They are not your friends, nor your enemies. It's simpl

Better put, the relationship you have with your employer is a business relation ship. It's not personal. They are not your friends, nor your enemies. It's simply a convenient arrangement between the two of you for as long as that lasts. And it might become convenient for either side to change that arrangement at any point. The more you earn, the higher the risk that at some point somebody decides that they want to spend less / smarter. So, your risk increases with your salary. That's fine because it enables you to mitigate such a scenario by having savings. I've been part of a big layoff round once. It wasn't personal. That was just my employer rounding up a large group of people to cut some meaningful chunk out of their salary expenses. It wasn't the last round either. The company, Nokia, ultimately got out of the phone and map business (I was in the maps unit). The final head count reduction was in the tens of thousands. A lot of those have since had successful careers and the Nokia implosion spawned quite a few successful companies. But getting layed off is a bit of a rough ride. You feel bitter, angry, insulted, etc. But on reflection I actually got a fair deal and honestly I needed the wake up call that job security is a big illusion. I was just coasting in my career and a bit too comfortable. The moment was perfect as I was still in my thirties. This stuff gets harder as you get older, less flexible, and more dependent on job security. I've been doing startups and freelance work ever since. Which means I'm my own boss now and I've learned a lot in the decade since that happened.

Galanwe 3y ago
You should add more nuance I think. While this is a respectable way to see employer / employee relationships, it does not apply to every company / employee out there. In particular, I think this is very true for BigCo, where most people are seen as fungible cogs. The smaller the company, the better.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Smaller companies treat employees different, to an extent. Because in the end, regardless of company size, the owners expect a return of their investment. In case of owner-managed companies even more so. To everyone their poison so, I guess. I learned that I am a large company guy, by a nature and nurture. Other people I know are the complete oppossite. One thing I learned so, no employee ever is safe. Not even lifetime employed state / public servants.
- prox 3y ago
  Honestly the size really doesn’t matter that much. As soon as it’s favorable you are out in ANY company. In my observational experience it’s only 10 to 20% companies who have heart and where they do actually try to maintain talent and foster good working relationships.
  - karmarepellent 3y ago
    I think the size definitely matters, but I am not sure about the extent to which it matters. I work at a company of roughly over 200 employees that is part of a much bigger org. Layoffs never happen where I am working. And one factor may be that HR has a different, in some cases personal relationship with their employees. That is certainly not the case in the parent org where large-scale layoffs happen every few years. Edit: And I would not even attest that my company is one of those with a "heart", as you say.
    - oblio 3y ago
      Have you been working for this company for 20+ years? There's a high chance you're just a "sweet summer child" who wasn't there the last time things were REALLY bad.
      - karmarepellent 3y ago
        That is a valid point. But no, the company has been around for 31 years and I have only worked there for just over 8 years. I am confident however that no large-scale layoffs ever happened there, because I have heard all sorts of harrowing stories from "back then", abusive managers and the like, but layoffs were never mentioned. Might be survivorship bias though because the people that could have been laid off in the first few years cannot be there to tell the tale, of course.
- Leo_Germond 3y ago
  The worse relationship I've had were in small companies. "Oh but we're so small we cannot afford raises" coming from the same people that are selling it millions later in the year.
- whiplash451 3y ago
  > The smaller the company, the better. I disagree. There is a lot of variance in small companies. There is a lot of variance in large companies as well (the famous "it will really depend on which team you belong to"). I really think there is little correlation between company size and your experience at such company. The predictive variables (if they ever exist) are elsewhere.
  - jokethrowaway 3y ago
    True, the difference is you are more likely to get the experience you've heard from reviews in a small company vs complete unknown in a big company (may be great, may be crap depending on your line of management) In my network we keep joining the same (relative small) companies because we roughly know the culture we can shape and create an environment
  - ponector 3y ago
    In smaller company you are closer to person with the decision power. It is much easier to build closer relationship and have high visibility to avoid being laid off.
    - gorbachev 3y ago
      Companies, of all sizes, are run by people. If those people are assholes, the size of the company doesn't matter, your employment in that company will suck.
      - rafabulsing 3y ago
        While that is true, if any given person has some X% chance of being an asshole, the more layers of management there are above you, the higher the chances you are at the mercy of at least one (and possibly multiple) asshole(s).
        whiplash451 3y ago
        You could use the exact same argument in the other direction: the more layers of management there are above you, the higher the chances a high-level managers will protect your team from armageddon. Sometimes, it's only a matter of a single email or a chat with a CxO. I stand by my original point: no obvious correlation between company size and quality of life inside it.
- lapcat 3y ago
  Don't kid yourself about small companies. Unless you're the owner, you're a fungible cog everywhere. In fairness, anyone can leave at any time. Your employer, regardless of size, has to be prepared for the possibilty that you'll quit for a better job, or for some other reason. It would be inadvisable to get emotionally attached to employees. The reason you're less likely to get laid off at a small company is that small companies don't have the capital to hire indiscriminately, so they're less likely to have large inefficiencies. The number of employees is already as low as they can get away with, given their current revenue, so only a significant downturn in revenue would justify layoffs.
  - resonious 3y ago
    Smaller companies also have a hard time hiring. A bad hire for your 7th employee is way more painful than for your 1000th, and you can't afford to spend to much time interviewing. If employee 7 does a good job and jives with the team, they'd be foolish to throw them out. Though I'm sure there genuinely are many small companies run foolishly out there.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      Small companies (whether VC-funded or bootstrapped) have their own issues. They tend to be different from what you see at big companies but they're certainly not nirvana.
- lumb63 3y ago
  I thought this until a few days ago! At my “smaller company” of 150 or so employees, they just laid off a third of the company, and virtually everybody outside of the C suite was blindsided. I think the posters who remind people that the employer/employee relationship is a business one have it right. We as engineers should strive as best as possible what our specific value is to a company. We should not delude ourselves into thinking we are more to the company than that. When we cease to have that value, or they cease to desire going down that path, they might end the relationship.
Madmallard 3y ago
The problem with this is if you leave awful companies after not working there for very long then new companies will not want to hire you. It doesn't work both ways. They only get the benefits. You do not.
- sbrother 3y ago
  This is why the logical conclusion of this culture change is for anyone who can to move toward independent contracting. Like I mentioned in a different comment, I’ve had my best clients longer than any single job. But for the ones that didn’t work out, no one bats an eye at a 3 month contract.
refurb 3y ago
> The more you earn, the higher the risk that at some point somebody decides that they want to spend less / smarter. And it applies to everyone up to the CEO. At my company a new CEO came in to much fanfare. A year later they were unceremoniously turfed out because the board decided they weren’t up to the “new direction” the company needed to go. And not to mention the people under the CEO who road her coattails. They were all turfed in quick succession (or smartly saw the writing on the wall and bailed first). It’s a business relationship. That’s all. Treat it as such. Get as much money as you can. Don’t kill yourself in the hope your sacrifice will be repaid, it probably won’t. Basically take the emotion out of it. When management talks of “our big family” they are just saying that because people like to hear it. It’s not true. And once you’ve gotten enough years under your belt you start to see through the talk pretty easily. Trust your gut. If the company starts to look wobbly, be the first out the door, not the last. Or at least plan according and don’t assume your job will be there next year or even next month.
- cebert 3y ago
  > If the company starts to look wobbly, be the first out the door, not the last. For individual contributors leaving isn’t always that easy as most interviews now require Leetcode prep. If you haven’t already been practicing, it can take a few months to get prepared for the grind. This is even worse for folks who work and have obligations outside of work such as children or sick family members.
  - HarHarVeryFunny 3y ago
    I haven't interviewed in years, but I had the impression that Leetcode interviews were mostly for FAANG type jobs. Are non-software companies (i.e. ones where software is not the product) doing this too now ?!
    - aweiland 3y ago
      They sure are.
    - nly 3y ago
ponector 3y ago
It is a business relationship, but they always trying to convince employees that it is not. That it is a family, a friendship relationship. You should be reliable, you should help everyone in your "family". If you leave your "family" abruptly it is a kind of betrayal. Also funny is brainwashing employees to think that HR is their fried, that HR can help with issues at work. It is a business. Do minimum amount of work you've been hired for, get your paycheck and focus on your private life!
- sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
  Honestly a very depressing outlook. If I would really think this way I wouldn’t wanna work in this industry. The only times I was really happy and motivated at work was when I was working within a team where we were really friends - I’m still in contact with most of them years after the fact and some became really close friends - this was outside of IT though. Your line of thinking seems to be common in the IT industry and I wonder if it’s a good industry for me to be in long term. I only was at one company so far where we had a really close-knit team.
  - foobazgt 3y ago
    The only times I was really happy and motivated at work was when I was working within a team where we were really friends Ditto! A business is made of employees, but the employees are not the business. Sometimes that means decisions have to be made in favor (sometimes arguably) of the business over you. Understanding the ephemerality of the situation can help you appreciate when it's going well and the people you work with, while helping you be prepared if and when something happens. Hopefully you will have gained a lot more experience, a bigger network of good friends, and have a decent nest egg to take you to the next job.
  - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
    > Honestly a very depressing outlook. If I would really think this way I wouldn’t wanna work in this industry. The only times I was really happy and motivated at work was when I was working within a team where we were really friends - I’m still in contact with most of them years after the fact and some became really close friends - this was outside of IT though. It's important to differentiate between colleagues and the business. The people you work with can become friends, but ultimately the business will do whatever sociopathic thing makes the number go up the faster/helps to deal with the crippling emotional turmoil of the execs. You can be friends with the people you work with/for, but if there comes a time when the business and the people's interests diverge, the business will normally win. As long as you are aware of this, you can be OK throughout it (sortof, getting laid off really, really sucks).
fendy3002 3y ago
And this goes both ways, employees can go out as they please. The opposite party usually get hurt when it happens (either the firing or employee go out), and usually coworkers / existing workers that get the bad things. So in my experience, don't get too attached to company (or coworker either), and go out if things start to go south or if there's better opportunity out there.
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  > And this goes both ways, employees can go out as they please. Spoken like a man who never needed healthcare, who never had dependents, who never lived under the cage of a visa.
  - badpun 3y ago
    Presumably, you leave to go work for another company, so none of these are a problem.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
      So you’re not aware how much a visa screws you in the job search? And you’re not aware how much time raising a family takes from searching for a job? And you’re not aware of the fact not all doctors are in network for all insurances, that your new insurance company can and will deny your dependents their medication to force them to take cheaper stuff that doesn’t work, again, to prove it doesn’t work? And you have to sit and watch your wife or your child or whatever be hospitalized and crash and know it’s just what happens when you switch jobs?
  - fendy3002 3y ago
    Yeah correct, my experience is just locally, and the healthcare isn't that bad here. US is just simply has a system that's very cons for employees, especially with visa and right to work law.
  - beepboopboop 3y ago
    I’m not the OP, but I don’t think you understood her/his comment. People leave jobs.
rvz 3y ago
> I actually got a fair deal and honestly I needed the wake up call that job security is a big illusion. I was just coasting in my career and a bit too comfortable. Many people fall for this and as long as you are an employee, no job is ever secure. > I've been doing startups and freelance work ever since. Which means I'm my own boss now and I've learned a lot in the decade since that happened. This gives some hope that there are those that have learned from the illusion and are now realizing that these companies do not care about you.
- ghaff 3y ago
  And if you're not an employee, your biggest client can decide to "go in a different direction" at any time. Of course, you try to diversify but you're still subject to the economy, clients having management changes, etc.
ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
I was laid off my last job, of 27 years. I didn't actually mind. It was completely anticipated, and we (me and my team) were pretty much ready. I think the company made the correct decision, but the reason they got there, was because they made a whole cascade of rotten choices, that painted them into a corner they couldn't get out of, easily. I really wish that they would have involved me in some of the really dumb decisions they made, because I'm actually pretty good at strategic thinking, and could have easily advised them of alternatives. But what is done, is done. The really annoying part, was coming out of a 27-year "silo," into the current tech industry zeitgeist. Nasty culture shock.
- nathan_douglas 3y ago
  What sort of shock? Were you working full-time on a single application or suite of applications for that period?
  - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    We wrote image processing pipeline stuff in C++. Backend of the backend. The shock was encountering the value system of modern corporations and even individual ICs. I’m not going to get more specific, but let’s just say that I have a value system that does not mesh well, with today’s tech culture.

Galanwe 3y ago

You should add more nuance I think. While this is a respectable way to see employer / employee relationships, it does not apply to every company / employee out there. In particular, I think this is very true for BigCo, where most people are seen as fungible cogs. The smaller the company, the better.

hef19898 3y ago
Smaller companies treat employees different, to an extent. Because in the end, regardless of company size, the owners expect a return of their investment. In case of owner-managed companies even more so. To everyone their poison so, I guess. I learned that I am a large company guy, by a nature and nurture. Other people I know are the complete oppossite. One thing I learned so, no employee ever is safe. Not even lifetime employed state / public servants.
prox 3y ago
Honestly the size really doesn’t matter that much. As soon as it’s favorable you are out in ANY company. In my observational experience it’s only 10 to 20% companies who have heart and where they do actually try to maintain talent and foster good working relationships.
- karmarepellent 3y ago
  I think the size definitely matters, but I am not sure about the extent to which it matters. I work at a company of roughly over 200 employees that is part of a much bigger org. Layoffs never happen where I am working. And one factor may be that HR has a different, in some cases personal relationship with their employees. That is certainly not the case in the parent org where large-scale layoffs happen every few years. Edit: And I would not even attest that my company is one of those with a "heart", as you say.
  - oblio 3y ago
    Have you been working for this company for 20+ years? There's a high chance you're just a "sweet summer child" who wasn't there the last time things were REALLY bad.
    - karmarepellent 3y ago
      That is a valid point. But no, the company has been around for 31 years and I have only worked there for just over 8 years. I am confident however that no large-scale layoffs ever happened there, because I have heard all sorts of harrowing stories from "back then", abusive managers and the like, but layoffs were never mentioned. Might be survivorship bias though because the people that could have been laid off in the first few years cannot be there to tell the tale, of course.
Leo_Germond 3y ago
The worse relationship I've had were in small companies. "Oh but we're so small we cannot afford raises" coming from the same people that are selling it millions later in the year.
whiplash451 3y ago
> The smaller the company, the better. I disagree. There is a lot of variance in small companies. There is a lot of variance in large companies as well (the famous "it will really depend on which team you belong to"). I really think there is little correlation between company size and your experience at such company. The predictive variables (if they ever exist) are elsewhere.
- jokethrowaway 3y ago
  True, the difference is you are more likely to get the experience you've heard from reviews in a small company vs complete unknown in a big company (may be great, may be crap depending on your line of management) In my network we keep joining the same (relative small) companies because we roughly know the culture we can shape and create an environment
- ponector 3y ago
  In smaller company you are closer to person with the decision power. It is much easier to build closer relationship and have high visibility to avoid being laid off.
  - gorbachev 3y ago
    Companies, of all sizes, are run by people. If those people are assholes, the size of the company doesn't matter, your employment in that company will suck.
    - rafabulsing 3y ago
      While that is true, if any given person has some X% chance of being an asshole, the more layers of management there are above you, the higher the chances you are at the mercy of at least one (and possibly multiple) asshole(s).
      - whiplash451 3y ago
        You could use the exact same argument in the other direction: the more layers of management there are above you, the higher the chances a high-level managers will protect your team from armageddon. Sometimes, it's only a matter of a single email or a chat with a CxO. I stand by my original point: no obvious correlation between company size and quality of life inside it.
lapcat 3y ago
Don't kid yourself about small companies. Unless you're the owner, you're a fungible cog everywhere. In fairness, anyone can leave at any time. Your employer, regardless of size, has to be prepared for the possibilty that you'll quit for a better job, or for some other reason. It would be inadvisable to get emotionally attached to employees. The reason you're less likely to get laid off at a small company is that small companies don't have the capital to hire indiscriminately, so they're less likely to have large inefficiencies. The number of employees is already as low as they can get away with, given their current revenue, so only a significant downturn in revenue would justify layoffs.
- resonious 3y ago
  Smaller companies also have a hard time hiring. A bad hire for your 7th employee is way more painful than for your 1000th, and you can't afford to spend to much time interviewing. If employee 7 does a good job and jives with the team, they'd be foolish to throw them out. Though I'm sure there genuinely are many small companies run foolishly out there.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Small companies (whether VC-funded or bootstrapped) have their own issues. They tend to be different from what you see at big companies but they're certainly not nirvana.
lumb63 3y ago
I thought this until a few days ago! At my “smaller company” of 150 or so employees, they just laid off a third of the company, and virtually everybody outside of the C suite was blindsided. I think the posters who remind people that the employer/employee relationship is a business one have it right. We as engineers should strive as best as possible what our specific value is to a company. We should not delude ourselves into thinking we are more to the company than that. When we cease to have that value, or they cease to desire going down that path, they might end the relationship.

Madmallard 3y ago

The problem with this is if you leave awful companies after not working there for very long then new companies will not want to hire you. It doesn't work both ways. They only get the benefits. You do not.

sbrother 3y ago
This is why the logical conclusion of this culture change is for anyone who can to move toward independent contracting. Like I mentioned in a different comment, I’ve had my best clients longer than any single job. But for the ones that didn’t work out, no one bats an eye at a 3 month contract.

refurb 3y ago

> The more you earn, the higher the risk that at some point somebody decides that they want to spend less / smarter. And it applies to everyone up to the CEO. At my company a new CEO came in to much fanfare. A year later they were unceremoniously turfed out because the board decided they weren’t up to the “new direction” the company needed to go. And not to mention the people under the CEO who road her coattails. They were all turfed in quick succession (or smartly saw the writing on the wall and bailed first). It’s a business relationship. That’s all. Treat it as such. Get as much money as you can. Don’t kill yourself in the hope your sacrifice will be repaid, it probably won’t. Basically take the emotion out of it. When management talks of “our big family” they are just saying that because people like to hear it. It’s not true. And once you’ve gotten enough years under your belt you start to see through the talk pretty easily. Trust your gut. If the company starts to look wobbly, be the first out the door, not the last. Or at least plan according and don’t assume your job will be there next year or even next month.

cebert 3y ago
> If the company starts to look wobbly, be the first out the door, not the last. For individual contributors leaving isn’t always that easy as most interviews now require Leetcode prep. If you haven’t already been practicing, it can take a few months to get prepared for the grind. This is even worse for folks who work and have obligations outside of work such as children or sick family members.
- HarHarVeryFunny 3y ago
  I haven't interviewed in years, but I had the impression that Leetcode interviews were mostly for FAANG type jobs. Are non-software companies (i.e. ones where software is not the product) doing this too now ?!
  - aweiland 3y ago
    They sure are.
  - nly 3y ago

ponector 3y ago

It is a business relationship, but they always trying to convince employees that it is not. That it is a family, a friendship relationship. You should be reliable, you should help everyone in your "family". If you leave your "family" abruptly it is a kind of betrayal. Also funny is brainwashing employees to think that HR is their fried, that HR can help with issues at work. It is a business. Do minimum amount of work you've been hired for, get your paycheck and focus on your private life!

sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
Honestly a very depressing outlook. If I would really think this way I wouldn’t wanna work in this industry. The only times I was really happy and motivated at work was when I was working within a team where we were really friends - I’m still in contact with most of them years after the fact and some became really close friends - this was outside of IT though. Your line of thinking seems to be common in the IT industry and I wonder if it’s a good industry for me to be in long term. I only was at one company so far where we had a really close-knit team.
- foobazgt 3y ago
  The only times I was really happy and motivated at work was when I was working within a team where we were really friends Ditto! A business is made of employees, but the employees are not the business. Sometimes that means decisions have to be made in favor (sometimes arguably) of the business over you. Understanding the ephemerality of the situation can help you appreciate when it's going well and the people you work with, while helping you be prepared if and when something happens. Hopefully you will have gained a lot more experience, a bigger network of good friends, and have a decent nest egg to take you to the next job.
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  > Honestly a very depressing outlook. If I would really think this way I wouldn’t wanna work in this industry. The only times I was really happy and motivated at work was when I was working within a team where we were really friends - I’m still in contact with most of them years after the fact and some became really close friends - this was outside of IT though. It's important to differentiate between colleagues and the business. The people you work with can become friends, but ultimately the business will do whatever sociopathic thing makes the number go up the faster/helps to deal with the crippling emotional turmoil of the execs. You can be friends with the people you work with/for, but if there comes a time when the business and the people's interests diverge, the business will normally win. As long as you are aware of this, you can be OK throughout it (sortof, getting laid off really, really sucks).

fendy3002 3y ago

And this goes both ways, employees can go out as they please. The opposite party usually get hurt when it happens (either the firing or employee go out), and usually coworkers / existing workers that get the bad things. So in my experience, don't get too attached to company (or coworker either), and go out if things start to go south or if there's better opportunity out there.

SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
> And this goes both ways, employees can go out as they please. Spoken like a man who never needed healthcare, who never had dependents, who never lived under the cage of a visa.
- badpun 3y ago
  Presumably, you leave to go work for another company, so none of these are a problem.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
    So you’re not aware how much a visa screws you in the job search? And you’re not aware how much time raising a family takes from searching for a job? And you’re not aware of the fact not all doctors are in network for all insurances, that your new insurance company can and will deny your dependents their medication to force them to take cheaper stuff that doesn’t work, again, to prove it doesn’t work? And you have to sit and watch your wife or your child or whatever be hospitalized and crash and know it’s just what happens when you switch jobs?
- fendy3002 3y ago
  Yeah correct, my experience is just locally, and the healthcare isn't that bad here. US is just simply has a system that's very cons for employees, especially with visa and right to work law.
- beepboopboop 3y ago
  I’m not the OP, but I don’t think you understood her/his comment. People leave jobs.

rvz 3y ago

> I actually got a fair deal and honestly I needed the wake up call that job security is a big illusion. I was just coasting in my career and a bit too comfortable. Many people fall for this and as long as you are an employee, no job is ever secure. > I've been doing startups and freelance work ever since. Which means I'm my own boss now and I've learned a lot in the decade since that happened. This gives some hope that there are those that have learned from the illusion and are now realizing that these companies do not care about you.

ghaff 3y ago
And if you're not an employee, your biggest client can decide to "go in a different direction" at any time. Of course, you try to diversify but you're still subject to the economy, clients having management changes, etc.

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago

I was laid off my last job, of 27 years. I didn't actually mind. It was completely anticipated, and we (me and my team) were pretty much ready. I think the company made the correct decision, but the reason they got there, was because they made a whole cascade of rotten choices, that painted them into a corner they couldn't get out of, easily. I really wish that they would have involved me in some of the really dumb decisions they made, because I'm actually pretty good at strategic thinking, and could have easily advised them of alternatives. But what is done, is done. The really annoying part, was coming out of a 27-year "silo," into the current tech industry zeitgeist. Nasty culture shock.

nathan_douglas 3y ago
What sort of shock? Were you working full-time on a single application or suite of applications for that period?
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  We wrote image processing pipeline stuff in C++. Backend of the backend. The shock was encountering the value system of modern corporations and even individual ICs. I’m not going to get more specific, but let’s just say that I have a value system that does not mesh well, with today’s tech culture.