5 ms·

Hawaii, a remote island in the middle of the pacific, pays less than the 2024 pg&e prices for the bay area. PG&E are the worst.

epistasis 3y ago
And this is before PG&E gets around to all their deferred maintenance on lines that are likely to start deadly wildfires. One does have to wonder where all the money has gone, and what the supposed regulators at CPUC are allowing to happen.
- ribosometronome 3y ago
  So, we're subsidizing rural lifestyles with our Bay Area power bills?
  - lokar 3y ago
    Yes, also with your home hazard insurance
    - hedora 3y ago
      That's also not true. Home insurance in rural areas is insanely expensive, assuming you can get it at all. The insurance companies explicitly refuse to subsidize high-risk houses with low risk premiums. This is why it's also becoming unaffordable / impossible to get flood insurance in parts of Mountain View / East Palo Alto. On top of that the California state government has allowed the insurance cartel to form an artificial monopoly, and then funnel new plans into it, where they can charge a large multiple of fair market rates to homeowners (due to their monopoly status, and the fact that they're an association that was formed by the companies that conspired to refuse to cover the house). Of course, they provide terrible customer service and refuse to pay out after natural disasters. Here's their web site: https://www.cfpnet.com https://www.cfpnet.com
  - hedora 3y ago
    Nope. Rural customers are not the issue. I can confirm they don't maintain rural lines, and they charge 5 figures for 2-3 hours of labor in rural areas, just like in the city. Even if they were adequately servicing rural areas, that wouldn't be the root cause. If it was, then power would be more expensive in completely rural states than it is in California. There was a lot of well-documented corruption decades ago (remember when an entire residential block exploded because they used to falsify line maintenance records and move the money into their personal accounts?) I doubt it's improved since then, and I'm pretty sure that's the root cause.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Rural customers are the ones serviced by lines close to trees, which are the ones that are sparking forest fires during hot dry summers. Power lines cause plenty of forest fires in rural states as well. But the money involved is probably very different, and Californians are bilked for higher rates simply because they are richer than someone in Idaho or Wyoming.
      - hedora 3y ago
        If you don't maintain power lines, then they'll eventually cause fires regardless of where they are. PG&E employees were caught skimming the money for line maintenance. At this point, the whole grid is falling apart. The power poles in our area have over 20 degree bends in them, and are nearly as old as I am. Last year, we had dozens of trees take out the single digit mile line between ourselves and the freeway, and PG&E's availability was barely one nine. It used to make news if our area had a power outage over 12 hours. Now, it doesn't make news if the outage is under a week. Other states in the US do not have problems like this. (Puerto Rico does, but it's not a state.)
  - dalyons 3y ago
    my place in Tahoe is in California but the power comes from the Nevada grid. It costs 14c, so 3x (!!!) less. It’s pretty rural and tree dense :)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- mjevans 3y ago
  Not building Gen 4 nuclear plants conveniently close to major cities and industrial centers along the coastline where they can sink the off the coast a bit... As a major infrastructure component electricity is one of those natural monopolies that should be socialized, with long term planning by the community (government agencies) and built by contractors on fixed price for delivering an output contracts - with a reasonable price and insurance for not building it correctly the first time included.
  - epistasis 3y ago
    The cost of generation is a tiny fraction of the cost of the transmission and distribution grid in California. We hav pricy electricity because of our "fixed" grid costs, not because of expensive generation. Utilities usually take a fixed rate of profit from T&D, and are therefore incentivized to overbuild as much as possible, and it's the regulators' job to stop that. A socialized grid probably would be run much better than the one by PG&E, however legislation to buy them out has usually been extremely poorly timed so that the state, as purchaser, would take the biggest losses instead of the investors who backed the bad management team.
    - mjevans 3y ago
      Transmission would be much less of an issue if source and demand were closer together.
sushid 3y ago
I thought it couldn't get worse and then I saw my parents' San Diego electricity bills. It seems like whatever CA is doing/has done is really screwing its residents.
- katbyte 3y ago
  Granting a private company a monopoly on critical infrastructure is working out great for them eh
  - bsdpufferfish 3y ago
    yeah that libertarian state government has really let the state run wild.
kelnos 3y ago
Oahu's average residential electricity costs $0.43/kWh[0]. My last PG&E bill shows an average cost of $0.35/kWh. Still outrageous considering the national average is less than half that, but I think your numbers are off. Having said that, PG&E is the worst. Agreed. [0] https://www.hawaiianelectric.com/billing-and-payment/rates-and-regulations/average-price-of-electricity https://www.hawaiianelectric.com/billing-and-payment/rates-a...
- DeRock 3y ago
  What plan are you on? You likely are looking at old rates, they jumped almost 20% Jan 1st. See https://www.pge.com/content/dam/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/residential-electric-rate-plan-pricing.pdf https://www.pge.com/content/dam/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/...
- zbrozek 3y ago
  PG&E is higher: https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-TOU-C.pdf https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHED... I think California's IOUs are selling the most expensive electricity of any major provider in the nation.
ineedtosleep 3y ago
That doesn't seem right. Looked up the rates for San Mateo and San Francisco county rates[1] and they're both under $0.400/kWh. On the other hand my parents in San Diego are paying over $0.450/kWh with rates scheduled to go even higher in 2024. [1] https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/RateComparison https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/RateComparison
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  Why is power so expensive in San Diego? Wiki tells me that most of San Diego is served by a separate utility (compared to SF bay area): San Diego Gas & Electric.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    I don't know why, but both power and gasoline are even more expensive in San Diego than in the Bay Area or Los Angeles. My hunch is that SD is weirdly isolated from imports and hasn't kept up with very recent growth.
- DeRock 3y ago
  Those numbers are way out of date. See https://www.pge.com/content/dam/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/residential-electric-rate-plan-pricing.pdf https://www.pge.com/content/dam/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/... for the latest
talldatethrow 3y ago
In the SF Bay area, electricity prices are so high with PGE, it's more cost effective to burn gasoline in my Gen1 Chevy Volt if the price of gas is below $4.50 a gallon.

epistasis 3y ago

And this is before PG&E gets around to all their deferred maintenance on lines that are likely to start deadly wildfires. One does have to wonder where all the money has gone, and what the supposed regulators at CPUC are allowing to happen.

ribosometronome 3y ago
So, we're subsidizing rural lifestyles with our Bay Area power bills?
- lokar 3y ago
  Yes, also with your home hazard insurance
  - hedora 3y ago
    That's also not true. Home insurance in rural areas is insanely expensive, assuming you can get it at all. The insurance companies explicitly refuse to subsidize high-risk houses with low risk premiums. This is why it's also becoming unaffordable / impossible to get flood insurance in parts of Mountain View / East Palo Alto. On top of that the California state government has allowed the insurance cartel to form an artificial monopoly, and then funnel new plans into it, where they can charge a large multiple of fair market rates to homeowners (due to their monopoly status, and the fact that they're an association that was formed by the companies that conspired to refuse to cover the house). Of course, they provide terrible customer service and refuse to pay out after natural disasters. Here's their web site: https://www.cfpnet.com https://www.cfpnet.com
- hedora 3y ago
  Nope. Rural customers are not the issue. I can confirm they don't maintain rural lines, and they charge 5 figures for 2-3 hours of labor in rural areas, just like in the city. Even if they were adequately servicing rural areas, that wouldn't be the root cause. If it was, then power would be more expensive in completely rural states than it is in California. There was a lot of well-documented corruption decades ago (remember when an entire residential block exploded because they used to falsify line maintenance records and move the money into their personal accounts?) I doubt it's improved since then, and I'm pretty sure that's the root cause.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Rural customers are the ones serviced by lines close to trees, which are the ones that are sparking forest fires during hot dry summers. Power lines cause plenty of forest fires in rural states as well. But the money involved is probably very different, and Californians are bilked for higher rates simply because they are richer than someone in Idaho or Wyoming.
    - hedora 3y ago
      If you don't maintain power lines, then they'll eventually cause fires regardless of where they are. PG&E employees were caught skimming the money for line maintenance. At this point, the whole grid is falling apart. The power poles in our area have over 20 degree bends in them, and are nearly as old as I am. Last year, we had dozens of trees take out the single digit mile line between ourselves and the freeway, and PG&E's availability was barely one nine. It used to make news if our area had a power outage over 12 hours. Now, it doesn't make news if the outage is under a week. Other states in the US do not have problems like this. (Puerto Rico does, but it's not a state.)
- dalyons 3y ago
  my place in Tahoe is in California but the power comes from the Nevada grid. It costs 14c, so 3x (!!!) less. It’s pretty rural and tree dense :)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
mjevans 3y ago
Not building Gen 4 nuclear plants conveniently close to major cities and industrial centers along the coastline where they can sink the off the coast a bit... As a major infrastructure component electricity is one of those natural monopolies that should be socialized, with long term planning by the community (government agencies) and built by contractors on fixed price for delivering an output contracts - with a reasonable price and insurance for not building it correctly the first time included.
- epistasis 3y ago
  The cost of generation is a tiny fraction of the cost of the transmission and distribution grid in California. We hav pricy electricity because of our "fixed" grid costs, not because of expensive generation. Utilities usually take a fixed rate of profit from T&D, and are therefore incentivized to overbuild as much as possible, and it's the regulators' job to stop that. A socialized grid probably would be run much better than the one by PG&E, however legislation to buy them out has usually been extremely poorly timed so that the state, as purchaser, would take the biggest losses instead of the investors who backed the bad management team.
  - mjevans 3y ago
    Transmission would be much less of an issue if source and demand were closer together.

sushid 3y ago

I thought it couldn't get worse and then I saw my parents' San Diego electricity bills. It seems like whatever CA is doing/has done is really screwing its residents.

katbyte 3y ago
Granting a private company a monopoly on critical infrastructure is working out great for them eh
- bsdpufferfish 3y ago
  yeah that libertarian state government has really let the state run wild.

kelnos 3y ago

Oahu's average residential electricity costs $0.43/kWh[0]. My last PG&E bill shows an average cost of $0.35/kWh. Still outrageous considering the national average is less than half that, but I think your numbers are off. Having said that, PG&E is the worst. Agreed. [0] https://www.hawaiianelectric.com/billing-and-payment/rates-and-regulations/average-price-of-electricity https://www.hawaiianelectric.com/billing-and-payment/rates-a...

DeRock 3y ago
What plan are you on? You likely are looking at old rates, they jumped almost 20% Jan 1st. See https://www.pge.com/content/dam/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/residential-electric-rate-plan-pricing.pdf https://www.pge.com/content/dam/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/...
zbrozek 3y ago
PG&E is higher: https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-TOU-C.pdf https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHED... I think California's IOUs are selling the most expensive electricity of any major provider in the nation.

ineedtosleep 3y ago

That doesn't seem right. Looked up the rates for San Mateo and San Francisco county rates[1] and they're both under $0.400/kWh. On the other hand my parents in San Diego are paying over $0.450/kWh with rates scheduled to go even higher in 2024. [1] https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/RateComparison https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/RateComparison

throwaway2037 3y ago
Why is power so expensive in San Diego? Wiki tells me that most of San Diego is served by a separate utility (compared to SF bay area): San Diego Gas & Electric.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  I don't know why, but both power and gasoline are even more expensive in San Diego than in the Bay Area or Los Angeles. My hunch is that SD is weirdly isolated from imports and hasn't kept up with very recent growth.
DeRock 3y ago
Those numbers are way out of date. See https://www.pge.com/content/dam/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/residential-electric-rate-plan-pricing.pdf https://www.pge.com/content/dam/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/... for the latest

talldatethrow 3y ago

In the SF Bay area, electricity prices are so high with PGE, it's more cost effective to burn gasoline in my Gen1 Chevy Volt if the price of gas is below $4.50 a gallon.