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That's addressed in the post. There is some of that, but there are similar increases in hospitalisation for self-harm, which wouldn't be affected by an increase

That's addressed in the post. There is some of that, but there are similar increases in hospitalisation for self-harm, which wouldn't be affected by an increase in awareness of mental illness.

Aeolun 3y ago
That assumes people aren’t induced towards self harm due to an increased awareness? If you believe suicide or self harm are common (and valid/acceptable) solutions to your issue, would you not be more likely to do so?
- julianeon 3y ago
  This is also complicated by the fact that, if you are about to self-harm or in the population of people verging on self-harm, you are overdue for a mental health diagnosis for depression or a condition like it. It seems a little circular past this point. You may have diagnosed yourself, but if you saw a doctor, they would do the same.
- nasmorn 3y ago
  I guess also suicide attempts and hospitalizations will be highly affected by how society views it. Actual successful suicides seem the least influenced by external trends.
  - FabHK 3y ago
    Actual suicides can be quite influenced by events (eg other suicides and reporting about them in the media). This is known as the Werther effect (after Goethe's "Die Leiden des jungen Werthers"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- SkyBelow 3y ago
  One group is claiming that X is occurring more and another group is saying that X is occurring just as often as in the past, but awareness of X means we identify more cases. The argument that X is increasing because of awareness of X has increased is still, at its core, an argument that X has increased, and is a subset of the first group's argument. The poster you replied to seemed to be looking for evidence that shows X was actually increasing by looking at an increase in reporting that wouldn't be solely caused by awareness of X and thus had to be because of an actual increase of X. To this end, your argument that the awareness of X is causing an actual increase of X would be one possible reason X is increasing, but that wasn't relevant to the previous poster's point, at least from my reading of it.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    Of course when measuring X now, you have to ensure that methodology for measuring X has not changed. For example, are medical examiners back then, or even now, more apt to rule a suicide an accidental death? Wide social trends can affect how these individual decisions are marked at population scales.
- tomp 3y ago
  Isn’t this just the argument that it’s a social contagion? And indeed, if you can be convinced those are the solutions to your problems, surely you can be convinced you have problems in the first place as well?
  - pixl97 3y ago
    I wouldn't use the word just. Instead think of social contagion as an additive/multiplicative factor that we don't know the value of. So imagine a world where we're not allowed to talk about or problems. In that world you'll have your base measured rate X. Then you add a new stressor and get your increase over X. In a model with social contagion you still have X, you still have your increase in your stressors, then you have the confounding factor of the social contagion.
- ascorbic 3y ago
  If this were true, what happened around 2010-2012 to make this the case? And if that were the case, wouldn't the most likely explanation be because suddenly all these kids got easier access to the kind of online communities that would encourage this?
hospitalJail 3y ago
Mental illness has become a badge to wear. "I have depression/ADHD/Autism/Bipo/sch" Once you think you have it, you notice all the systems. As a medical owner, I'm not going to deny someone money if they are coming. With grey areas, and the lack of science in medical, it very well could be a tracking thing. I certainly wouldn't tell anyone I had a mental issue in the 90s or 00s. Today, its almost cool.
- dumpsterlid 3y ago
  [dead]
- itronitron 3y ago
  I think it's definitely a tracking thing based on parents now paying more attention to their children's well being or 'academic achievements' than they did several decades ago.
- dotnet00 3y ago
  A related factor I've noticed is that at university at least, a diagnosis often gets you benefits like extra time for exams and some more leeway in terms of submission deadlines for assignments. Which I'd imagine creates somewhat of an incentive to exaggerate even a diagnosis that doesn't actually meaningfully affect one's ability to finish an exam within the normal timespan. I've seen an example of both kinds of cases, one student who clearly had ADHD, but was also clearly putting in the effort rather than seeming to abuse the benefits, and a roommate who just seemed to care more about gaming and used his diagnosis as an out for every responsibility even when the rest of us roommates tried to help him out. So, while I am not in a position to judge who deserves or does not deserve those benefits, I wonder if that has contributed to mental illness becoming a bit of a badge.

That's addressed in the post. There is some of that, but there are similar increases in hospitalisation for self-harm, which wouldn't be affected by an increase in awareness of mental illness.

Aeolun 3y ago

That assumes people aren’t induced towards self harm due to an increased awareness? If you believe suicide or self harm are common (and valid/acceptable) solutions to your issue, would you not be more likely to do so?

julianeon 3y ago
This is also complicated by the fact that, if you are about to self-harm or in the population of people verging on self-harm, you are overdue for a mental health diagnosis for depression or a condition like it. It seems a little circular past this point. You may have diagnosed yourself, but if you saw a doctor, they would do the same.
nasmorn 3y ago
I guess also suicide attempts and hospitalizations will be highly affected by how society views it. Actual successful suicides seem the least influenced by external trends.
- FabHK 3y ago
  Actual suicides can be quite influenced by events (eg other suicides and reporting about them in the media). This is known as the Werther effect (after Goethe's "Die Leiden des jungen Werthers"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
SkyBelow 3y ago
One group is claiming that X is occurring more and another group is saying that X is occurring just as often as in the past, but awareness of X means we identify more cases. The argument that X is increasing because of awareness of X has increased is still, at its core, an argument that X has increased, and is a subset of the first group's argument. The poster you replied to seemed to be looking for evidence that shows X was actually increasing by looking at an increase in reporting that wouldn't be solely caused by awareness of X and thus had to be because of an actual increase of X. To this end, your argument that the awareness of X is causing an actual increase of X would be one possible reason X is increasing, but that wasn't relevant to the previous poster's point, at least from my reading of it.
- pixl97 3y ago
  Of course when measuring X now, you have to ensure that methodology for measuring X has not changed. For example, are medical examiners back then, or even now, more apt to rule a suicide an accidental death? Wide social trends can affect how these individual decisions are marked at population scales.
tomp 3y ago
Isn’t this just the argument that it’s a social contagion? And indeed, if you can be convinced those are the solutions to your problems, surely you can be convinced you have problems in the first place as well?
- pixl97 3y ago
  I wouldn't use the word just. Instead think of social contagion as an additive/multiplicative factor that we don't know the value of. So imagine a world where we're not allowed to talk about or problems. In that world you'll have your base measured rate X. Then you add a new stressor and get your increase over X. In a model with social contagion you still have X, you still have your increase in your stressors, then you have the confounding factor of the social contagion.
ascorbic 3y ago
If this were true, what happened around 2010-2012 to make this the case? And if that were the case, wouldn't the most likely explanation be because suddenly all these kids got easier access to the kind of online communities that would encourage this?

hospitalJail 3y ago

Mental illness has become a badge to wear. "I have depression/ADHD/Autism/Bipo/sch" Once you think you have it, you notice all the systems. As a medical owner, I'm not going to deny someone money if they are coming. With grey areas, and the lack of science in medical, it very well could be a tracking thing. I certainly wouldn't tell anyone I had a mental issue in the 90s or 00s. Today, its almost cool.

dumpsterlid 3y ago
[dead]
itronitron 3y ago
I think it's definitely a tracking thing based on parents now paying more attention to their children's well being or 'academic achievements' than they did several decades ago.
dotnet00 3y ago
A related factor I've noticed is that at university at least, a diagnosis often gets you benefits like extra time for exams and some more leeway in terms of submission deadlines for assignments. Which I'd imagine creates somewhat of an incentive to exaggerate even a diagnosis that doesn't actually meaningfully affect one's ability to finish an exam within the normal timespan. I've seen an example of both kinds of cases, one student who clearly had ADHD, but was also clearly putting in the effort rather than seeming to abuse the benefits, and a roommate who just seemed to care more about gaming and used his diagnosis as an out for every responsibility even when the rest of us roommates tried to help him out. So, while I am not in a position to judge who deserves or does not deserve those benefits, I wonder if that has contributed to mental illness becoming a bit of a badge.