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That’s a really good way to stagnate imho. I’d rather have 10 sorting libraries that each specialize or make different trade-offs than one library that tries to

That’s a really good way to stagnate imho. I’d rather have 10 sorting libraries that each specialize or make different trade-offs than one library that tries to do everything. That said, you can still have a core set of “blessed” packages that serve the common needs.

charlie0 3y ago
I don't see how creating a definitive sorting library is stagnation compared to having 10 mediocre libraries that are all missing some sort of critical functionality.
- jddj 3y ago
  Right. I'd be very surprised if anyone looks at languages with strong standard libs and says "I wish they had the kind of sorting I can pull in from npm"
- MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
  Because who is going to bother working on any packages if they risk rejection in the end? Have fun with your ______ package because it's never going to improve.
  - hnlmorg 3y ago
    There’s plenty of languages with vast standard libraries and which also have 3rd party libraries that offer the same feature as something in stdlib but more enhanced against a specific metric. You see it in Go, Python, .NET, etc.
    - watwut 3y ago
      Also Java and Kotlin.
- forrestthewoods 3y ago
  Your argument seems to be "just write good code instead of bad code". My argument is "the best way for good code to exist is to enable and support multiple options". Because if you have only one option and it's bad then you're screwed with no recourse. C++ and Python have, imho, many horrible API designs and we're stuck with them forever. This is stagnation. Rust has a good standard library and also a large community of libraries. Sometimes those community libraries get promoted to std because they're strictly better. Sometimes the std version of hashmap is slow because std insists on using a crytographically secure hash when 99.99% of use cases would be better served with a less secure but faster hashing algorithm. Like many things in life the ideal scenario is a benevolent dictator that only makes good choices. In practice the best way to get something good is to allow for multiple choices. <insert parable of pottery class graded on quality vs quantity>
  - int_19h 3y ago
    The problem with this argument is that JS also has many horrible API designs. That seem to be replaced by equally horrible API designs, just with a faster churn. Meanwhile, the horrible C++ and Python API designs at least offer the needed functionality, even if the code looks ugly.
  - spencerchubb 3y ago
    Forgive me for nitpicking your Rust example but you can define your own hashmap that inherits from the standard hashmap, and give it a different hash function. I have done it.
spion 3y ago
A well designed JS standard library that also includes a set of protocols (interfaces) would make such a huge difference in QoL. It would also likely be the biggest contributor to reducing bundle sizes. The protocols (iterable, async iterable etc) will ensure that the rest of the ecosystem can also innovate and participate at a similar level of ergonomics by implementing them
- tentacleuno 3y ago
  > A well designed JS standard library While I agree here, you also have to remember that additions to the JavaScript standard also increase the amount of time / effort for new browsers to enter the space. The JavaScript standard (the web APIs, mainly) are already very complex, with Web Workers, Push Notifications, Media Streams, etc. that additions to it should be made cautiously -- once an API is implemented, it's there forever, so the bar for quality is much greater than that of some NPM library.
  - remexre 3y ago
    There's a difference between features that need to be implemented as part of the engine such as Web Workers and those that can be implemented as a library, such as sorting; the latter can be shared between implementations much easier.
  - spion 3y ago
    A JS standard library would be a drop in the bucket compared to the size and complexity of the DOM libraries and implementing a usably performant JS engine. Yes it should be done carefully. There are also plenty of examples of how this can be done well, done by experienced engineers. For example, the Dart starndard library (https://dart.dev/libraries https://dart.dev/libraries - core [1], collection [2] and async [3] in particular) is a very good model that would fit JS fairly well too (with some tweaks and removals) [1]: https://api.dart.dev/stable/3.2.4/dart-core/dart-core-library.html https://api.dart.dev/stable/3.2.4/dart-core/dart-core-librar... [2]: https://api.dart.dev/stable/3.2.4/dart-collection/dart-collection-library.html https://api.dart.dev/stable/3.2.4/dart-collection/dart-colle... [3]: https://api.dart.dev/stable/3.2.4/dart-async/dart-async-library.html https://api.dart.dev/stable/3.2.4/dart-async/dart-async-libr...
IshKebab 3y ago
I don't know, I think "batteries included" standard libraries got a bad reputation because Python's standard library is so full of crap, so lots of people thought the whole idea was fundamentally bad. But I think the correct conclusion is just that Python's standard library is bad. Go has a big standard library too and it's mostly very well designed, useful and avoids fragmentation. I think a similar thing happened with compiler warnings and C/C++. The language is error prone so people want warnings but a lot of the warnings don't have good solutions (e.g. signedness mismatches) so people tend to ignore them. Also they aren't easy to control, e.g. from third party dependencies. So some people got the idea that warnings are fundamentally wrong and e.g. Go doesn't have them. But my experience of Rust warnings is that they are totally fine if done right.

charlie0 3y ago

I don't see how creating a definitive sorting library is stagnation compared to having 10 mediocre libraries that are all missing some sort of critical functionality.

jddj 3y ago
Right. I'd be very surprised if anyone looks at languages with strong standard libs and says "I wish they had the kind of sorting I can pull in from npm"
MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
Because who is going to bother working on any packages if they risk rejection in the end? Have fun with your ______ package because it's never going to improve.
- hnlmorg 3y ago
  There’s plenty of languages with vast standard libraries and which also have 3rd party libraries that offer the same feature as something in stdlib but more enhanced against a specific metric. You see it in Go, Python, .NET, etc.
  - watwut 3y ago
    Also Java and Kotlin.
forrestthewoods 3y ago
Your argument seems to be "just write good code instead of bad code". My argument is "the best way for good code to exist is to enable and support multiple options". Because if you have only one option and it's bad then you're screwed with no recourse. C++ and Python have, imho, many horrible API designs and we're stuck with them forever. This is stagnation. Rust has a good standard library and also a large community of libraries. Sometimes those community libraries get promoted to std because they're strictly better. Sometimes the std version of hashmap is slow because std insists on using a crytographically secure hash when 99.99% of use cases would be better served with a less secure but faster hashing algorithm. Like many things in life the ideal scenario is a benevolent dictator that only makes good choices. In practice the best way to get something good is to allow for multiple choices. <insert parable of pottery class graded on quality vs quantity>
- int_19h 3y ago
  The problem with this argument is that JS also has many horrible API designs. That seem to be replaced by equally horrible API designs, just with a faster churn. Meanwhile, the horrible C++ and Python API designs at least offer the needed functionality, even if the code looks ugly.
- spencerchubb 3y ago
  Forgive me for nitpicking your Rust example but you can define your own hashmap that inherits from the standard hashmap, and give it a different hash function. I have done it.

spion 3y ago

A well designed JS standard library that also includes a set of protocols (interfaces) would make such a huge difference in QoL. It would also likely be the biggest contributor to reducing bundle sizes. The protocols (iterable, async iterable etc) will ensure that the rest of the ecosystem can also innovate and participate at a similar level of ergonomics by implementing them

tentacleuno 3y ago
> A well designed JS standard library While I agree here, you also have to remember that additions to the JavaScript standard also increase the amount of time / effort for new browsers to enter the space. The JavaScript standard (the web APIs, mainly) are already very complex, with Web Workers, Push Notifications, Media Streams, etc. that additions to it should be made cautiously -- once an API is implemented, it's there forever, so the bar for quality is much greater than that of some NPM library.
- remexre 3y ago
  There's a difference between features that need to be implemented as part of the engine such as Web Workers and those that can be implemented as a library, such as sorting; the latter can be shared between implementations much easier.
- spion 3y ago
  A JS standard library would be a drop in the bucket compared to the size and complexity of the DOM libraries and implementing a usably performant JS engine. Yes it should be done carefully. There are also plenty of examples of how this can be done well, done by experienced engineers. For example, the Dart starndard library (https://dart.dev/libraries https://dart.dev/libraries - core [1], collection [2] and async [3] in particular) is a very good model that would fit JS fairly well too (with some tweaks and removals) [1]: https://api.dart.dev/stable/3.2.4/dart-core/dart-core-library.html https://api.dart.dev/stable/3.2.4/dart-core/dart-core-librar... [2]: https://api.dart.dev/stable/3.2.4/dart-collection/dart-collection-library.html https://api.dart.dev/stable/3.2.4/dart-collection/dart-colle... [3]: https://api.dart.dev/stable/3.2.4/dart-async/dart-async-library.html https://api.dart.dev/stable/3.2.4/dart-async/dart-async-libr...

IshKebab 3y ago

I don't know, I think "batteries included" standard libraries got a bad reputation because Python's standard library is so full of crap, so lots of people thought the whole idea was fundamentally bad. But I think the correct conclusion is just that Python's standard library is bad. Go has a big standard library too and it's mostly very well designed, useful and avoids fragmentation. I think a similar thing happened with compiler warnings and C/C++. The language is error prone so people want warnings but a lot of the warnings don't have good solutions (e.g. signedness mismatches) so people tend to ignore them. Also they aren't easy to control, e.g. from third party dependencies. So some people got the idea that warnings are fundamentally wrong and e.g. Go doesn't have them. But my experience of Rust warnings is that they are totally fine if done right.