7 ms·

Seems like BYD has surpassed Tesla as the biggest EV maker as of the end of 2023: https://www.ft.com/content/716c9b0b-d8cd-491a-a91b-d70c1e540797 https://www.ft

• madaxe_again 3y ago
  I’ll bite the bait, and will point out that Tesla sales this Q have been suppressed by people awaiting model refreshes.
  • kamikaz1k 3y ago
    Moreover, you wanna focus on production + days spent in inventory. Deliveries have more factors involved, and really only useful if full production capacity isn’t being fully sold out (which I believe still is).
  • pengaru 3y ago
    BYD isn't even available in all markets Tesla is. For it to surpass Tesla globally without selling to US buyers is nothing to shake a stick at.
    • adventured 3y ago
      You can't sell dangerous $10,000 EVs in affluent markets in Europe, North America, Japan, etc. Fairly strict build & safety regulations prevent that.
      • reisse 3y ago
        I'd say dieselgate, Tesla self-driving safety investigation and the recent Toyota/Daihatsu scandal shows regulations are not working as well as people wish them to.
      • pengaru 3y ago
        China's EVs are already in the UK under the MG marque (SAIC[0]) and there's no reason to think BYD won't follow suit AFAICT. It's just a matter of when, not if, from where I'm sitting. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAIC_Motor#MG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAIC_Motor#MG
  • diggan 3y ago
    > I’ll bite the bait I guess I'll do the same? Why have curious conversation when you can assume the worst? > Tesla sales this Q have been suppressed by people awaiting model refreshes You're just saying "Tesla had less sales because of bad $X" with fancier words. The importance is not why Tesla fucked up (that's up to them to figure out), but that they're now being surpassed even though they had a huge headstart.
    • belltaco 3y ago
      Included in the stat are $10K cars sold in China, maybe Tesla doesn't want to compete in the extreme low end just like Apple doesn't make $150 phones. Being a profitable barely #2 in a large and growing market is somehow fucking up? If you are world #2 in your field of work do you consider yourself a failure and that you fucked up? That's a sad existence.
      • diggan 3y ago
        > If you are world #2 in your field of work do you consider yourself a failure and that you fucked up? That's a sad existence. Personally, I wouldn't, I don't care what "position" I'm at, as long as I have enough. But I'm fairly sure that Musk would take that as a failure, especially if you've been #1 for a bunch of quarters and suddenly you aren't. (Musk has repeated many times that he wants Tesla to be the biggest automaker [by volume] https://dallasexpress.com/business-markets/teslas-goal-largest-auto-manufacturer/ https://dallasexpress.com/business-markets/teslas-goal-large...)
        • belltaco 3y ago
          Musk and Tesla opened up EV patents to help other car companies make and sell EVs, more EVs are getting into the hands of people so that's a good thing. https://sustainablebrands.com/read/behavior-change/tesla-opens-up-patents-to-advance-ev-movement https://sustainablebrands.com/read/behavior-change/tesla-ope...
          • __m 3y ago
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• Etheryte 3y ago
  This is a stat that people keep bringing up while completely ignoring the fact that many of BYD's vehicles are not marketable outside of China because they're just rip-offs of other manufacturers' vehicles. See BYD S8 [0] and Mercedes-Benz CLK-Class [1] for one example, but there are numerous. This should tell you everything you need to know about this company. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_S8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_S8 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_CLK-Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_CLK-Class
  • diggan 3y ago
    > that many of BYD's vehicles are not marketable outside of China Yet, it seems like they're beating a lot of other EV makers across the world, and are producing top-selling vehicles in a bunch of countries. So seems it's somewhat working outside of China? Or I misunderstand what you mean.
    • acover 3y ago
      The price outside china is very different. In Colombia for example their 10k car is 150,000,000 cop or about 35k.
      • deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      • seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        This might have to do with Columbian import tariffs, it might also not be exactly the same car.
  • endisneigh 3y ago
    Why does it matter if it’s a rip off or not? If a design is good why not reuse?
    • sidlls 3y ago
      Because it demonstrates a theft of tech and design, which puts their credibility and integrity in question. Is the derivative safe (actually safe, not government-of-China wanting a feather in its cap rubber-stamp safe)? Is the derivative actually comparable (i.e. is the marketing a lie)? Aside from that, do we want to reward companies that steal other companies' ideas?
• samr71 3y ago
  If he was willing to work with the rules and norms of the markets they want to enter, they'd sell even fewer cars. If they had to deal with the same regulations and IP laws as China, they'd sell more.
  • diggan 3y ago
    > If he was willing to work with the rules and norms of the markets they want to enter, they'd sell even fewer cars Well, as it stands right now, BYD looks to be the more popular option in countries like Sweden just because Musk refuses to do what every other single company does in the country. Even Amazon found a way to work in a way that the common person is protected, why can't Tesla?
    • ripjaygn 3y ago
      > Well, as it stands right now, BYD looks to be the more popular option in countries like Sweden Source please. BYD appears to be far far behind in Sweden, not even in top 5 EV company sales. https://cleantechnica.com/2024/01/02/evs-take-63-1-share-in-sweden/ https://cleantechnica.com/2024/01/02/evs-take-63-1-share-in-... And not even in ICE or Hybrids in Sweden? > just because Musk refuses to do what every other single company does in the country You're assuming a causality with bad and wrong data, Tesla sales are increasing in Sweden. Where are you getting your information from?
    • belltaco 3y ago
      > Well, as it stands right now, BYD looks to be the more popular option in countries like Sweden just because Musk refuses to do what every other single company does in the country No it's not, where are you getting your data from? Not to mention jumping to conclusions.
• belltaco 3y ago
  > I'm guessing that Musk's unwillingness to work with the rules and norms in the markets Tesla is trying to enter, will be Tesla's downfall. Hopefully Tesla could somehow get rid of Musk as it seems like he is constantly holding Tesla back quite a bit. Like what? Source(s)?
  • diggan 3y ago
    > Like what? Source(s)? Added a link that gives you some additional context.
    • belltaco 3y ago
      > Added a link that gives you some additional context. Tesla sold 55% more cars in Nov 2023 compared to Nov 2022, and 9% more in December, so how is that Tesla's downfall? https://carup.se/trots-strejken-tesla-far-ut-fler-bilar-i-sverige/ https://carup.se/trots-strejken-tesla-far-ut-fler-bilar-i-sv... https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-new-car-registrations-sweden-rose-9-dec-2024-01-02/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-... Edit: Ran into the posting limit but the below is certainly false about Sweden, BYD is not selling the most cars there. > BYD are selling the most cars, and is the fastest growing in terms of sales in the country
      • diggan 3y ago
        BYD are selling the most cars, and is the fastest growing in terms of sales in the country. If you're aiming to be the company that produces the most vehicles in the world, it certainly sounds like it's not going in the right direction for them. - "BYD overtakes Tesla - sells the most electric cars" - https://www.mestmotor.se/automotorsport/artiklar/nyheter/20240103/byd-gar-om-tesla-saljer-flest-elbilar/ https://www.mestmotor.se/automotorsport/artiklar/nyheter/202... - "BYD beat Tesla - grew fastest in Sweden in 2023" - https://carup.se/byd-slog-tesla-okade-snabbast-i-sverige-2023/ https://carup.se/byd-slog-tesla-okade-snabbast-i-sverige-202...
        • seanmcdirmid 3y ago
• paradite 3y ago
  Huh? Literally I've seen people on HN making the exact opposite arguments about companies bending over rules for certain markets only to lose the market eventually, hence considered a bad example.
  • diggan 3y ago
    We're all different people on here (mostly at least), so makes sense you see conflicting opinions :)
• orenlindsey 3y ago
  You'll have to wait for more than 1 quarter before you make that call.
  • diggan 3y ago
    Not according to the graph from the article: https://archive.is/LOiYh/d4f25c5617954c2cd5c5e2de424334eacab66d13.avif https://archive.is/LOiYh/d4f25c5617954c2cd5c5e2de424334eacab...
• gzer0 3y ago
  And many people forget that BYD's number's are bolstered by the fact that they sell one of their models for less than 10,000 euros. Of course they will have higher numbers at that price point.
  • resolutebat 3y ago
    And this is a problem because...? Tesla's building their cheap car too, but it will not launch until 2025 earliest.
    • dylan604 3y ago
      What is "cheap" in terms of Tesla? From my understanding of issues with modern Teslas at full price, I'd hate to see issues when they start cutting corners to make "cheap".
      • resolutebat 3y ago
        It's all speculation at this point, but apparently they're aiming for a $25k price point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_next-generation_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_next-generation_vehicle And Teslas built overseas are fine, it's Fremont's quality control that sucks. Which is likely exactly why Tesla is planning to built the Model 2s in Mexico, Germany and China, but not the US.
• freitzkriesler2 3y ago
  [flagged]
• seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > I'm guessing that Musk's unwillingness to work with the rules and norms in the markets Tesla is trying to enter, will be Tesla's downfall. Musk is perfectly willing to play by the rules and norms of the Chinese market. They opened up a factory there and everything, they are even selling lots of cars in the PRC while exporting some outside. I’m not sure how BYD would fair in Norway/Sweden; where unions are granted blanket monopolies on economic control. Is it even much of a player there yet?
  • dmoy 3y ago
    > I’m not sure how BYD would fair in Norway/Sweden Pretty sure BWD is the top selling EV manufacturer in Sweden, I recall reading that before the Tesla union shenanigans happened. No idea about Norway
    • seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Does BYD use a dealership model in sweden like they do in China? If so, they would just outsource all of those issues to local parties.
      • eptcyka 3y ago
        They have their own showrooms in the cities.
        • seanmcdirmid 3y ago
          So they are following Tesla’s direct model?
          • eptcyka 3y ago
            Yes.
    • ripjaygn 3y ago
      > Pretty sure BWD is the top selling EV manufacturer in Sweden, I recall reading that before the Tesla union shenanigans happened. Source, please. VW and Tesla seem far far ahead of BYD. I am curious where this narrative started, since multiple people are confidently stating that BYD is outselling Tesla in Sweden.
• JDDunn9 3y ago
  Electric vehicles are more heavily subsidized in China than America. 22% of new car sales in China are electric vs 1% in America. China also has a lot of tariffs and regulations preventing foreign competition.
  • adventured 3y ago
    > 22% of new car sales in China are electric vs 1% in America Where are you getting 1% from? That's off by a drastic amount. "EV sales climb and are on track to be 9% of US new car purchases in 2023" "U.S. sales of hybrid, plug-in hybrid and battery-electric vehicles reached 17.7% of new light-duty vehicle sales in the third quarter" https://www.utilitydive.com/news/electric-vehicles-EVs-new-car-sales-2023/700799/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/electric-vehicles-EVs-new-c... https://apnews.com/article/automakers-electric-vehicles-us-china-sales-d121c09a61f50e7357f5675af4b6056b https://apnews.com/article/automakers-electric-vehicles-us-c...
• onetom 3y ago
  I would be cautious believing these stats... How much of those sales are real ones? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfwoqKRU8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfwoqKRU8 Their hybrid cars has serious problems, including catching fire on their own. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXrsmYQvK8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXrsmYQvK8E It's not like Tesla didn't have issues, but not so serious and numerous ones.
• starbase 3y ago
  Important detail: BYD's "EV" sales numbers include gasoline-electric hybrids.
  • moogly 3y ago
    Not anymore. That was the thing the last time this was (erroneously) reported.
    • starbase 3y ago
      incorrect. BYD sold 1,574,822 battery electric vehicles in 2023. Tesla sold 1,808,581 https://www1.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2024/0101/2024010100099.pdf https://www1.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2024/0101/... https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/tesla-sold-1-8-million-electric-vehicles-in-2023/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/tesla-sold-1-8-million-...
      • moogly 3y ago
        Over the year yes, but BYD outsold Tesla in Q4 (pure BEV). That's what's been doing the news rounds this week.
• rossjudson 3y ago
  Vehicles sold by price and region is useful. Total # of vehicles sold is not. How many sold inside/outside of China? To put it gently, EV sales in China have had an additional boost from the government (which, btw, I think is good for the planet). The newer BYD vehicles are more comparable to Tesla (and other manufacturers), but there's a long, long way to go before they prove themselves more than a manufacturer of cheap cars. Tesla has never been a manufacturer of cheap cars. More recently, it has become a manufacturer of good ones. The fundamentally simpler nature of EVs means they're rolling software platforms, and the software matters a great deal. Tesla has gotten good at the software side of the equation, and are arguably ahead of pretty much everything else.
  • christkv 3y ago
    I would not trust any sales numbers from the Chinese internal market as they have a long history of faking them for various reasons. This includes doing things like registering the car (counting as sale) and then just parking them on a lot. https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevetengler/2023/07/19/the-three-legends-or-lies-of-electric-vehicles/?sh=3b94611d591b https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevetengler/2023/07/19/the-thr...
• osigurdson 3y ago
  What would new leadership really do? Make a T-150?
• jbm 3y ago
  Musk Derangement Syndrome on the first comment about a different car company making a very interesting product. I also saw this in comments in articles about Boeing and Toyota this week. Is there a browser mod to hide comments like this? Bonus points if it hides the snide demoralization-style comments that have started infesting HN too ("Oh you are a software engineer? Let me tell you why you are ignorant without knowing anything about you")
• _ea1k 3y ago
  As much as I'd love to believe that a better leader would make an American company fully keep pace with BYD, I don't see any evidence that this is the case. I really doubt BYD would be doing any better on worker treatment and unionization. And besides, BYD did that by selling a lot of very cheap vehicles. I don't think that really fits the business objectives for Tesla.
  • otherme123 3y ago
    IIRC the strategy of Tesla was to start building very expensive EVs (Roadster, then Model S and X) to fund the build of cheaper options (Model 3 and Y), and the final target would be a mass market car affordable by everyone, maybe in the $20-25K range.
    • _ea1k 3y ago
      Yes, exactly. BYD can go below that, to vehicles that wouldn't really be marketable outside of China.